question about morphs and selling

[carnivorouszoo]

I have recently had the impression made that if you have not bred a snake to a mate that is known and proven to be the suspected snakes morph that it is to be called a normal until bred.

How does any one sell hatchlings if this is the way to do things? How can anyone anywhere look at any hatchling and say it is a certain morph and sell it as anything other than a normal if it has not been bred and proven out?

I'm not trying to breed a jerk, and its not just on here that I am hearing this, its in other places too. Can someone help me understand? I don't want to breed something identify the hatchlings visually and have angry people because it wasn't what was thought. I'm still only expecting normals with hets this year as part of my little projects, but when I start seeing other morphs how will I know what they are for sure without holding all to breeding age/size and breeding them to each other or their parents?

 

[headly1994]

specific traits that go to morphs

 

[carnivorouszoo]

That really doesn't tell me much as I was told my diffused is a normal until I breed her to a diffused and get diffused hatchlings. . . .even if I breed her to a proven diffused, which I don't have one, how do I prove to others they are not just normals? Thats what I am getting at.

 

[Chip]

I may not understand the question... The snake itself is either normal or homozygous (visual) for recessive traits -that will be the description. Snakes can also be heterozygous (carry the gene though it is not expressed) for certain traits. Or possible het would mean that the snake may or may not carry that recessive trait. Possible hets can come in percentages, if you know the lineages of the breeders, they can be 66% poss het, etc.

 

[Christen]

You know what?!?! I had that problem that year and was wondering the same thing. I was lucky enough to have family that wanted some babies just as pets so I made them take the iffy babies. I would have sworn that they were diffused just because they looked exactly like there dad when he was a baby but now that they are almost a year it is very obvious that they are normals. So hopefully we get an experienced answer.

 

[Shiari]

The main identifying trait of a 'diffused' is a belly completely clear of pattern. Lateral diffusion is ideal, but not always present.

As to proving: If you breed to a *known* diffused, and get all hatchlings with blank ventrums, then you know she is homozygous diffused, and so are all those babies.

 

[Nanci]

I understand the question. People who have bloodred snakes, and know they are bloodred snakes, know this because they are red and have clear bellies. (Or we know the parents, have looked at the pedigree, whatever). But to _say_ an unknown red snake is a bloodred, it has to have a checkerless belly.

But motleys and stripes have checkerless bellies. So if you don't know for a _fact_ that your red, clear-bellied, motley or stripe snake is a bloodred, it could just as easily be a "normal" motley or stripe that is just very red.

So you have your bloodred motley, and your other snake, and you breed them and produce motley babies, or normal babies. You still can't say if those babies are het bloodred or not.

If you breed your bloodred motley to a normal-patterned bloodred, you will either get bloodreds, proving your snake, or normals, proving your snake is _not_ bloodred. Because you will only get bloodred or normals- any checkerless belly will not be attributable to motley.

That's why, if you want to do a project involving bloodred mots or stripes, it is nice to start with homo animals, because then you never have to wonder if it's a bloodred, or just a motley or stripe.

So, it would be unfair to sell babies as het bloodred based soley on the phenotype of the parent, because someone could put three years into growing that baby up, go to breed, and then not produce bloodreds as promised!

 

[Chip]

Ah, Thanks, Nanci. I was cornfused!

 

[Kethryanne]

Thank you nanci for this explanation. It cleared some of the cobwebs out.

 

[Susan]

OK...the snake in question has a checkerless belly. The main concern seems to be if it really is bloodred, motley, or even motley bloodred. Yes, breeding trials will tell you for sure. But one also has to remember the familiar adage "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck". Motleys usually have a different dorsal pattern than bloodreds. Yes, you can get motleys that have an almost normal-looking dorsal pattern, but exactly how common is that? There usually is some difference in the saddle shape even if they aren't connected and you get those nice little circles (or Q-tips or pinstripes). From what I see of the dorsal pattern of the snake in question, it doesn't say motley to me and I would be fairly confident calling the snake a bloodred. However, I would do my best to test breed it ASAP to verify that, but in this instance, since you are unable to do so, labeling the hatchlings as "suspect het bloodred" would be my recommendation.

 

[medusacoils]

This was mentioned to me one time by a person who saw one of my Bloodreds. Only because he doesn't have a whole lot of diffusion. He has the other markers of a bloodred, ie checkerless belly and ominous head markers, but...

This is when Passion was a baby baby. He has developed "some" diffusion over time. I should also mention that I got him from a reputable breeder and her parents were Bloodred x Bloodred.

I have no doubts about her, but understand what your asking.

Wayne

 

[medusacoils]

Here is another example of a snake that is a Bloodred, or more exact an Amber Bloodred that I got from Rich Z. Let someone try and say she is not a BR.

And a more recent picture below.

Wayne

 

[carnivorouszoo]

Oh THANK YOU Nanci What a wonderful detailed and plainly typed answer. It says everything I needed to know in a way anyone who reads this can understand. I am sorry for any confussion I think I had a hard time asking the question. You see I have a female I was told is a diffused/blood but I am uncertain. I have bred her to my male amel no known hets, in 2 years I can breed back a male hold back to her to test out her diffusion. In the mean time any hatchlings sold will only be listed as Het Amel, Note: Mother being tested for Homo Diffused results will be sent upon proving. I plan to keep contact info for anyone who might buy a hatchling from this pairing so I can inform them of the outcome when she is bred to her son. Next year I plan to test her for Motley by breeding her to a stripe het butter. I just needed help knowing exactly how to go about offering any hatchlings I might want to sell without turning out to be a liar by passing on bad/unproven info.

I understand the question. People who have bloodred snakes, and know they are bloodred snakes, know this because they are red and have clear bellies. (Or we know the parents, have looked at the pedigree, whatever). But to _say_ an unknown red snake is a bloodred, it has to have a checkerless belly.

But motleys and stripes have checkerless bellies. So if you don't know for a _fact_ that your red, clear-bellied, motley or stripe snake is a bloodred, it could just as easily be a "normal" motley or stripe that is just very red.

So you have your bloodred motley, and your other snake, and you breed them and produce motley babies, or normal babies. You still can't say if those babies are het bloodred or not.

If you breed your bloodred motley to a normal-patterned bloodred, you will either get bloodreds, proving your snake, or normals, proving your snake is _not_ bloodred. Because you will only get bloodred or normals- any checkerless belly will not be attributable to motley.

That's why, if you want to do a project involving bloodred mots or stripes, it is nice to start with homo animals, because then you never have to wonder if it's a bloodred, or just a motley or stripe.

So, it would be unfair to sell babies as het bloodred based soley on the phenotype of the parent, because someone could put three years into growing that baby up, go to breed, and then not produce bloodreds as promised!

 

[carnivorouszoo]

Impressive! The older pic reminds me of the side pattern on my anery suspected dark ghost (saddle boarders and belly checks are dark chocolate, not black), the side pattern seems to be fading but I never really thought about it. Shame that one is female or I'd breed her to my oddball redling next year lol.

Thank you everyone for all the responses, I did not want to gain the reputation of being a liar, idiot or both unch:

Here is another example of a snake that is a Bloodred, or more exact an Amber Bloodred that I got from Rich Z. Let someone try and say she is not a BR.

And a more recent picture below.

Wayne