VickyChaiTea
Snake enthusiast
Not to mention the INTENSE damage that outdoor cats do to native wildlife. :/
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Rabies
- Thread starter pridecity
- Start date
rexracer
Addict in the making
Have you ever watched a kitten playing "tiger in the grass" or chasing a butterfly or grasshopper? How about exercise? Cats that go outdoors get hit by cars. So do children. Should we never let them outside? Riding a bicycle is also very dangerous. Should we save kids from those, too? You say that you see dozens of cats every year that have injuries and illnesses that may have been prevented if they hadn't been let outside. How many do you see that spend their lives indoors and are overweight or diabetic? How many thousands of outdoor cats live in your area and never have a problem? Like I said earlier, I had cats my whole life, in many states, and they all came and went as they pleased. With the exception of one cat that was shot by an old man that also shot
many other pets in the neighborhood, none of them ever had a problem. I also knew and met many cat owners that did the same, with the same results. I think I knew 2 people that lost cats due to cars, but I also knew a couple of people that lost dogs, and a couple that lost children.
I think the danger is being overstated, and I would bet that cats that are allowed out are, in general, healthier than those that are always kept in.
reptile65
Future DVM
Thanks for bringing up this very valid point. I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned it...
reptile65
Future DVM
I do see where you're coming from as far as there being benefits as far as exercise. However, I can't agree with your last sentence. Not to mention, there are plenty of ways for your cat to get healthy exercise indoors. If you really think it's so important for your cats to play "tiger in the grass", you can always take your cat out on a leash.
It's clear that letting your cats outside has worked for you so far, but I'm willing to bet that if one of your cats ever contracted a life-threatening disease or was injured as a result of being outside, you might change your mind.
Terry Allan Hall
Tortoise fanatic
I'm a firm believer in keeping our cats inside, but if you do let them out, even for short periods, you'd be wise to get them annual rabies shots!
Shiari
Blutterer
My cats play "tiger in the grass" using blankets, bookcases, pillows, beds... sometimes each other!
Your arguments read just like the cohabbers. How many cats do fine? Well, how many snakes do fine cohabbed? Quite a few. But it's the small risks, the chance of egg binding. Of cannibalism.
I would much rather simply watch how much I feed my cats so they don't become fat. I consider that a fair trade from having to wonder what happened should they simply never come home one day. Or get to drive home and see the body of one of my beloved pets all pancaked.
Your arguments read just like the cohabbers. How many cats do fine? Well, how many snakes do fine cohabbed? Quite a few. But it's the small risks, the chance of egg binding. Of cannibalism.
I would much rather simply watch how much I feed my cats so they don't become fat. I consider that a fair trade from having to wonder what happened should they simply never come home one day. Or get to drive home and see the body of one of my beloved pets all pancaked.
Outcast
ATPSS
Having lived on a farm and owned many cats in my lifetime. I can say that there is a time and a place for cats to be outside. The only reason my parents got cats was to keep the rodent population down in the barn. When we moved in it was a nightmare out there. Usually the only cat I would own is an outdoor cat. But, I also think that dogs can live a perfectly healthy and happy life outside in a yard, as long as their needs are taken care of.
rexracer
Addict in the making
I agree with Outcast as to there being a time and place. I live in a condo now, so I won't own a cat, or a dog. As for a leash, I've never owned a cat that would tolerate one, and we tried with a few. And on this subject, I won't change my mind. I've had a cat that was shot and killed, and a few bouts with a raccoon, and the cat's still went back out. I wouldn't be happy locked up inside all day, and the cats I've owned wouldn't either. Unlike cohabbing snakes, there is an upside for the cat.
If I don't live somewhere where a cat can go out and enjoy nature, I won't have one. I would never consider having a dog without at least a yard for him to run in, either.
I think at this point in time, in this country, people seem to think that they can remove all risk and make everything safe, for themselves, for their families, and for their pets. I think that to really live, you sometimes need, or want to take risks. I used to race motorcycles. I could have crashed at 150 mph and died or been permanently injured, and because of this, some thought I was crazy for doing it. Guess what? The same could have happened on the drive into work this morning.
I guess my point is that, for me, longevity is nothing without quality of life. Maybe some day the risks of some of my hobbies will catch up to me. If it kills me, I'll bet I was having fun, and if it doesn't, then I go back to doing what I enjoy.
PS. That last comment made me think of a guy I used to race with. He lost his left arm, racing I think, and yet he still raced motorcycles with a prosthetic arm. He was enjoying life.
Terry Allan Hall
Tortoise fanatic
Of our 4 cats, only one wants to go outside and she never goes more than 10-15' from our porch...the other 3 will fight hard to not have to go outside!
Dreamsnake
New member
My cat is indoors only and I still keep her rabies shot up to date. This town has to many dogs that get out and wander and I don't trust the drivers not to hit a cat if given a chance. Holly is a rescue, her pregnant mother got caught in a trap and she was the last one in the litter. Some cats do survive as indoor outdoor pets, but I wont risk her life.
Foxes naturally carry rabies, so if you get a fox encounter go to the doctor.
Armadillos naturally carry leprosy.
Foxes naturally carry rabies, so if you get a fox encounter go to the doctor.
Armadillos naturally carry leprosy.
Terry Allan Hall
Tortoise fanatic
About 5% of all do armodillos carry leprosy...otoh, that just means you should make sure your "possum-on-the-halfshell" is well-cooked. :licklips:
Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
I grew up on a farm and had a few cats then. All died within a few years of being born. Down here, I live on a few acres as do my neighbors. We've had 7 cats in less than 10 years. All 3 that went outdoors are dead, two within 48 hours (owls) and the other actually survived a couple of months. The indoor cats that never go outside do great, even the one that lived as a stray outside until my husband won her over. She is a much healthier cat now and runs the other way if the door is opened for her to see if she wants to go out. She's a smart one!
I also work at a veterinary hospital and yes, indoor cats need to be monitored as to their food intake and exercise and they need activities to stimulate them, but if you compare that to all the horrible things I've seen happen to cats that go outdoors, it's easily dealt with. And you can't compare children being hit by cars to cats as the children are much more intelligent (I would hope) and can be taught more readily the dangers to be aware of outside. Children are also not on the menu of the many other creatures outside, nor will they have to deal with diseased feral children in their home territory or the threat of having their back broken because the giant next door grabbed them to play with and shook them just a little too hard.
But back to the original topic...rabies. You don't need to worry about rabies in your reptiles, fish or birds as the virus strictly attacks mammals. The rodent-type mammals, including rabbits (yes, I know they are lagomorphs and not rodents) and marsupials rarely get rabies but it is possible (about 50% of rabid squirrels will die without showing ANY signs of illness). In Florida, raccoons are the main concern, then foxes, cats and then bats round out the major rabies cases in Florida over a 20 year period. My source of info: Florida Dept of Health and links from that site.
As a vet tech, I've had the opportunity to get vaccinated against rabies to help protect me (all it does is decrease the number of injections you need if you get exposed) and I have so far declined them as the incidence and severity of the potential side effects of the vaccines are just too hreat. If I get exposed, I'll deal with the injections then, but I won't risk my life on an "IF".
Some little tidbits related to rabies in domestic pets that you may want to file away somewhere:
The law (not sure if it's state or federal) prevents a veterinarian from euthanizing an animal if that animal has bitten a human within the past 10 days, vaccines or no vaccines. It's a bummer telling clients whose pet bit them simply because it is old and in pain that we have to wait to end it's suffering. Now if we have no idea that the pet bit anyone, then we can legally proceed with the euthanasia.
Not sure about elsewhere, but I know it's the law here, that if you feed a stray, even just once, you are legally responsible for that animal, including making sure it has it's vaccines. And if that pet causes injury to someone else (neighbor child gets scratched by said stray, vet tech gets bitten by said stray when you bring it in the trap to get spayed and vaccinated, etc) you are legally responsible and can be sued for damages. And on a side note, if I get bitten by a non-vaccinated stray (or even your beloved poodle that you never vaccinated because Fifi "never" goes outside - rabid coons WILL come to you, even into your house and Fifi didn't beam to the animal hospital), I will demand that it's head be cut off and sent to be tested. (OK, I may not send Fifi's head off, but I WILL scare the crap out of Fifi's owner!)
I also work at a veterinary hospital and yes, indoor cats need to be monitored as to their food intake and exercise and they need activities to stimulate them, but if you compare that to all the horrible things I've seen happen to cats that go outdoors, it's easily dealt with. And you can't compare children being hit by cars to cats as the children are much more intelligent (I would hope) and can be taught more readily the dangers to be aware of outside. Children are also not on the menu of the many other creatures outside, nor will they have to deal with diseased feral children in their home territory or the threat of having their back broken because the giant next door grabbed them to play with and shook them just a little too hard.
But back to the original topic...rabies. You don't need to worry about rabies in your reptiles, fish or birds as the virus strictly attacks mammals. The rodent-type mammals, including rabbits (yes, I know they are lagomorphs and not rodents) and marsupials rarely get rabies but it is possible (about 50% of rabid squirrels will die without showing ANY signs of illness). In Florida, raccoons are the main concern, then foxes, cats and then bats round out the major rabies cases in Florida over a 20 year period. My source of info: Florida Dept of Health and links from that site.
As a vet tech, I've had the opportunity to get vaccinated against rabies to help protect me (all it does is decrease the number of injections you need if you get exposed) and I have so far declined them as the incidence and severity of the potential side effects of the vaccines are just too hreat. If I get exposed, I'll deal with the injections then, but I won't risk my life on an "IF".
Some little tidbits related to rabies in domestic pets that you may want to file away somewhere:
The law (not sure if it's state or federal) prevents a veterinarian from euthanizing an animal if that animal has bitten a human within the past 10 days, vaccines or no vaccines. It's a bummer telling clients whose pet bit them simply because it is old and in pain that we have to wait to end it's suffering. Now if we have no idea that the pet bit anyone, then we can legally proceed with the euthanasia.
Not sure about elsewhere, but I know it's the law here, that if you feed a stray, even just once, you are legally responsible for that animal, including making sure it has it's vaccines. And if that pet causes injury to someone else (neighbor child gets scratched by said stray, vet tech gets bitten by said stray when you bring it in the trap to get spayed and vaccinated, etc) you are legally responsible and can be sued for damages. And on a side note, if I get bitten by a non-vaccinated stray (or even your beloved poodle that you never vaccinated because Fifi "never" goes outside - rabid coons WILL come to you, even into your house and Fifi didn't beam to the animal hospital), I will demand that it's head be cut off and sent to be tested. (OK, I may not send Fifi's head off, but I WILL scare the crap out of Fifi's owner!)
Hypancistrus
New member
Susan, this is totally a side topic, but since we're talking vaccines....
I keep all our pets up to date as required on rabies vaccines. The county requires a rabies shot once as a pup and then the three year vaccine will do. I realize the importance of that to protect my critters.
But where do you (and the vets you work for) stand with regards to revaccinating for other diseases such as DHLPP, kennel cough, canine influenze, Feline AIDS, etc? I've heard many respected dog keepers say that after the initial puppy series have been completed, the dogs immunity is technically strong enough to last for much of their life and that the risks of over-vaccinating are enough to not bother with it. I've heard that cancer can be increased by over-vaccination and that this is why vets give certain shots in the legs as opposed to elsewhere-- because in the event of tumors caused by vaccination, a leg can be amputated, while other areas are not so treatable.
Any truth to this?
I never know how much is internet conjecture and how much is actual veterinary science.
I keep all our pets up to date as required on rabies vaccines. The county requires a rabies shot once as a pup and then the three year vaccine will do. I realize the importance of that to protect my critters.
But where do you (and the vets you work for) stand with regards to revaccinating for other diseases such as DHLPP, kennel cough, canine influenze, Feline AIDS, etc? I've heard many respected dog keepers say that after the initial puppy series have been completed, the dogs immunity is technically strong enough to last for much of their life and that the risks of over-vaccinating are enough to not bother with it. I've heard that cancer can be increased by over-vaccination and that this is why vets give certain shots in the legs as opposed to elsewhere-- because in the event of tumors caused by vaccination, a leg can be amputated, while other areas are not so treatable.
Any truth to this?
I never know how much is internet conjecture and how much is actual veterinary science.
Shiari
Blutterer
Vaccine-related cancers mostly occur in cats, and even then, mostly occur with the feline 3-year rabies vaccine. That is because the adjuvent used to prompt such a high immune response also causes a lot of inflammation, which is linked to cancer in cats. That's why the vast majority of places don't do the 3-year rabies anymore, but rather the modified-live 1-year purevax. At least here in California. And that's also why each vaccine is done in a different leg; so we can track which ones are causing the issues.
We also never vaccinate cats here for Feline aids because the animal will *forever* test positive for FIV! ... How on earth can you tell if it worked? *shakes head* And it really does have a poor rate of immunity. We also don't vaccinate for FIP, because there's been some evidence that it can actually cause an animal to develop the disease. The vaccines we do for indoor kitties here is the FVRCP - feline viral rhinotracheitis, Calici, and panleukopenia (parvo). Frequency depends on the veterinarian. Where I am, for an indoor-only animal we booster each year until the pet is 6, then go to every 3 years. For an indoor-outdoor, we wait a bit longer before moving out the 3-year schedule.
For dogs, the the DHLPP is done every year. Protecting against Leptospirosis (zoonotic and *very* dangerous to people) and canine parvo is really important. Parvo sucks. Even if your dog lives through it, they can have massive issues with absorbing nutrients from food for the rest of their lives.
We also never vaccinate cats here for Feline aids because the animal will *forever* test positive for FIV! ... How on earth can you tell if it worked? *shakes head* And it really does have a poor rate of immunity. We also don't vaccinate for FIP, because there's been some evidence that it can actually cause an animal to develop the disease. The vaccines we do for indoor kitties here is the FVRCP - feline viral rhinotracheitis, Calici, and panleukopenia (parvo). Frequency depends on the veterinarian. Where I am, for an indoor-only animal we booster each year until the pet is 6, then go to every 3 years. For an indoor-outdoor, we wait a bit longer before moving out the 3-year schedule.
For dogs, the the DHLPP is done every year. Protecting against Leptospirosis (zoonotic and *very* dangerous to people) and canine parvo is really important. Parvo sucks. Even if your dog lives through it, they can have massive issues with absorbing nutrients from food for the rest of their lives.
ceduke
Female Wiccan Heretic!!
My indoor cats get plenty of exercise chasing a laser pointer, bugs that come into the house, each other, and my dog. They play "stalk and pounce" with their toys, bugs that come in, and crumpled pits of paper. They aren't overweight, or bored, or sickly. My last indoor/outdoor cat died last year because she fell into a neighbor's pool and drowned.
pridecity
Patients took over asylum
I think my cats, indoor only, get plenty of exercise being indoor. They play NASCAR everyday and I'm slowly building a jungle gym for them. There is also my chasing them around and them following me around. Cassie has a tubby little belly, but I think it's her genetics because changing her diet hasn't mattered. She's very sturdy.
As for vaccines, remember that if you walk outside at any time that may or may not have been visited by another animal, you will potentially be bringing in sickness on your shoes or clothes. It's the same reason you're told not to let your dog walk on the floor in Petsmart or Petco until you get them vaccinated. I'm a firm believer in keeping all shots up to date because I could easily drag in something from the park that would make my dogs or cats sick.
As for vaccines, remember that if you walk outside at any time that may or may not have been visited by another animal, you will potentially be bringing in sickness on your shoes or clothes. It's the same reason you're told not to let your dog walk on the floor in Petsmart or Petco until you get them vaccinated. I'm a firm believer in keeping all shots up to date because I could easily drag in something from the park that would make my dogs or cats sick.
Hypancistrus
New member
The question is... what is "up to date?" Because veterinary opinion on that seems to be changing rapidly.
pridecity
Patients took over asylum
Based on what my vet tells me, it's dependent on the specific medicine, the animal's history, and how the animal generally spends its day. For example: both of my dogs are on a yearly rabies vac. plan. They are also given vacs for... crap. I can't think of it. What is the name of the illness dogs get when they tend to drink water from ponds and rivers? Starts with a "g" and usually gives dogs diarrhea? Anyway, both my dogs are on a vaccination to help combat it. They also get yearly or bi-yearly vaccinations for several other things, depending on what it is. I'd have to look at their paperwork. I do know that they get their kennel cough vac. less often than some of the others because they do not go into pet stores, kennels, groomers, or related very often.
So, I agree that it really depends on how the animal's health is, what they do on a regular basis, and what kind of medicine it is. My dog Lady drinks from ponds and streams every time she sees one. She also walks around in them and rolls in mud when she can. Scrappi on the other hand doesn't drink water from ponds or roll in mud. They both like to roll in dead things. This results in their vaccine schedules being slightly different.
So, I agree that it really depends on how the animal's health is, what they do on a regular basis, and what kind of medicine it is. My dog Lady drinks from ponds and streams every time she sees one. She also walks around in them and rolls in mud when she can. Scrappi on the other hand doesn't drink water from ponds or roll in mud. They both like to roll in dead things. This results in their vaccine schedules being slightly different.
reptile65
Future DVM
Giardiasis (caused by giardia). Unfortunately, we don't carry this vaccine anymore where I work because the manufacturer discontinued it. Luckily, giardiasis is relatively easy to treat.