Shipping of Snakes - Fed Ex or UPS ???

[TripleMoonsExotic]

The only thing I have to add to the conversation is that I have a contract to ship with both FedEx & DHL.

I give my customers the choice. DHL is less expensive (by about $10), so usually people go that route. I do from time to time have customers that insist on shipping FedEx because their DHL driver is a butthead. I'm ok with that. Whatever makes the customer happy.

My DHL driver is a complete doll, always on time & is always interested in what I'm sending and receiving. My FedEx driver on the other hand is a jerk who throws & runs. It all depends on who's at the receiving end, that always going to be where the main problem is.

 

[Taceas]

If I'm not mistaken, due to events of 9/11, it is federally (truly) illegal to ship unmarked packages.

I've yet to see any legal notice in ANY shipping store telling me I have to label my packages or else. I don't have to declare anything unless its hazardous in nature from what I HAVE read.

Not to mention, I didn't label my latest shipment of coffee beans to my mother-in-law "Contents: Espresso Beans". They don't need to know. I don't want people stealing stuff out of packages, which HAS happened before. On another forum I used to be a member of for Indian Artifacts, someone sent a particularly rare spear point at what was valued at around $4000 through Fedex overnight...it was written on the package "Native Artifacts: Please use care" and stamped with museum insignia and other such official stuff...when it arrived at the museum it was devoid of a nice spearpoint, but it did have a nice rock all wrapped in bubblewrap.

From what I have read/heard the shipping industry is different than airlines/USPS as they're privately owned entities.

Unfortunately, having your packages opened was your fault. I'd argue that being unmarked, unnecessarily red flagged your packed TO be opened. If someone is shipping unmarked, unlabeled boxes, well that's just wrong.

My fault huh? That's an interesting twist considering ~90% of the packages out there are unmarked/unlabeled. Here I thought I was trying to blend in with the herd.

Originally when I first started to ship, in July-August 2001, I would reuse boxes from Rich, which had all of the proper labeling still on them: "Protect from Cold", "Keep Cool", "Protect from Heat", "Protect from Direct Sunlight", etc and it also had the original shipping label from Serpenco, which if I'm not mistaken listed in the references "E. guttata". I don't have any of his boxes left to verify this info against, so I'm flying blindly there.

Since we didn't have any UPS depot in town at the time, I had to label and schedule pickups at my home. The UPS driver took one look at the labels all over the box, asked what E.guttata was, and when told he said it wasn't allowed...even though he was the SAME driver who dropped that box off a month earlier. He said if it hadn't been labeled he wouldn't have known and wouldn't have cared.

Here recently when I tried to ship Carlos' snake to him a few months ago, I had it properly labeled, including the "Live HARMLESS Reptiles" and the "Contains: 1 E. guttata" in the references. I took it to be shipped at the local Fedex store, she asked what was in the box that it needed all the labels. I told her a baby snake. She thought it was neat people shipped snakes. I paid and left. She called me 3 hours later telling me she called Fedex and they don't accept animals. When I go up for a refund and to pick up the package, she apologizes...and said that if it didn't have the labels on it, she wouldn't have given it a second glance.

:shrugs:

So which is it? Label it as properly as you dare and they refuse to accept it OR don't label it - UPS gets their money, you get your money, person gets their snake and everyone is happy.

IIRC, around that same time a whole torrent of posts back on Kingsnakes about how Rich and others were blessed by UPS to break their own rules, while the rest of us were stuck in the mud at the time. I guess it all boils down to the almighty dollar. If the larger breeders are shipping hundreds of dollars out a week, UPS can look the other way.

Which I remember calling down to the UPS depot asking why some people can ship against the rules and I/others can't. "Well that's between them and the shipping manager." Between them my left foot.

To agree with Joe once again, technically what you are doing is illegal as well, as UPS does not knowingly ship snakes, harmless or otherwise. They only ship other reptiles, id est lizards. So to me, its just semantics. If UPS wanted to be smart, they'd learn how to use Google and look up the fancy Latin name on your boxes.

If I wanted to, I could continue shipping through Fedex illegally, as I was doing for 2+ years and get a refund if they screwed up. But I didn't feel honest in doing that. So regardless of their stupid clause I'm certified to ship. Thank goodness I don't sell any high-end snakes and if one dies, its essentially chump change I have to refund.

How it'll stop someone from opening my package in Memphis and confiscating my snakes, I dunno. But hopefully they look up my account number and see affixed to it is a note that I am certified. I can only hope, anyway. Maybe YOU need to be asking Fedex these questions, do us all a favor.

I'll preface this with: I did not personally receive the box of snakes and don't know which carrier they arrived by: Had I known that you use UPS to ship, I probably wouldn't have these very pretty little Bloodreds. A lie is a lie, regardless of the intention. You, above all people, should know that.

 

[Drizzt80]

So, if UPS won't knowingly ship snakes, but will ship reptiles, then it's legal for you to ship snakes?

Come on, that's semantics, and writing Pantherophus Guttatus on the box doesn't make it 'okay'.

UPS will not knowingly ship snakes, so it's 'illegal' to do so because UPS prohibits snake shipments.

I've yet to see any legal notice in ANY shipping store telling me I have to label my packages or else. I don't have to declare anything unless its hazardous in nature from what I HAVE read.
. . .
If I wanted to, I could continue shipping through Fedex illegally, as I was doing for 2+ years and get a refund if they screwed up.
. . .
I'll preface this with: I did not personally receive the box of snakes and don't know which carrier they arrived by: Had I known that you use UPS to ship, I probably wouldn't have these very pretty little Bloodreds. A lie is a lie, regardless of the intention. You, above all people, should know that.

So Taceas, you're NOT certified via FedEX either? How does that work then?

Both of your comments are well and good, and attempting to sound ethical, BUT neither of you have addressed the two more pressing questions I asked:

My whole concern is:
1. Being certified with FedEx offers no 'protection' from DOA's or delayed shipments.
2. Why is using UPS or DHL looked down upon as lying or illegal if the #1 goal is shipping animals that arrive healthy and alive? (FedEx cannot and will not offer that guarantee, you just have a fancy 'certification'.)

Now, let's talk ethics. What you're saying is that I should stop shipping snakes because it's some form of 'illegal' yet, even certified shippers of FedEx run the risk of endangering the life of the animals they ship . . . same as if they were using UPS or DHL. :shrugs: How ethical is that?

D80

 

[Drizzt80]

PS. And I never said I wasn't lying, but I'm not 'lying'. I label my boxes with the truth. It's deceptive, and it is semantics, but I DON"T label my boxes as something they are NOT, like Fragile Glass.

Also, Taceas, for someone that's been lying to FedEx for 2 years, you're right it would have been a 'bummer for you' to know I used UPS. No beautious bloodreds for you . . . due to your 'morals'. :shrugs: (Lucky for you, you didn't know and have them.) Before you get angry, you yourself said you're going to call a spade a spade where necessary (or something to that affect).

D80

 

[Taceas]

To apparently humour you...

So Taceas, you're NOT certified via FedEX either? How does that work then?

If you would read and interpret what I have previously said, I AM Fedex certified. Officially as of last month, as a matter of fact. It took me damn near forever because I kept getting juggled from "No, we don't" person to "No, we don't" person. I had to break with the outlined steps posted on Fauna, here, and the newsletter and do it bassackwards, but I finally got there.

That's the crux of being certified, imho. 90% of the Fedex employees you talk to tell you its not allowed. The paper I got handed from Fedex needs a "Rule #" so I can quote it each time I'm told that. I also wish Fedex would make special labels with that rule number on it so I could use it on my packages so I am "officially allowed" and they won't open my package mid-transit. But, the process is in its infancy...I understand that, so I'm going to be patient for now.

1. Being certified with FedEx offers no 'protection' from DOA's or delayed shipments.

I addressed this in agreeing with you, being certified with Fedex offers no, nill, nada, zilch, zero, zip protection on DOA's or delayed shipments. They should, but they don't, and we all hope they will in the future.

2. Why is using UPS or DHL looked down upon as lying or illegal if the #1 goal is shipping animals that arrive healthy and alive? (FedEx cannot and will not offer that guarantee, you just have a fancy 'certification'.)

I look down upon it because shipping snakes through UPS is against their terms, aka not allowed, and I know it is.

Not to mention doing so, if caught, runs the same risk and offers no protection and a chance the animals could be confiscated all the same. If the snakes died and the representative you're dealing with for a refund is shrewd and knows snakes were shipped, they could refuse to give a refund because the shipper violated those terms. So in essence, it's the same as the Fedex policy in that regard. From my perspective, using UPS is use at your own risk, just as Fedex can be.

I only look down on DHL because in my neck of the woods, rural Indiana, they're incompetent at their jobs, which is the delivery of parcels to my door. For other people in a more urban setting where your home can be found easily on a city map, DHL can work great. Maybe when E-911 addressing comes to our county it'll be better, but until then I'll hold my breath. That's my personal reason, not a company policy reason.

If that's all that concerns you, being allowed and getting refunds, use DHL. At this point, God bless DHL for accepting live animal shipments AND offering refunds if they screw it up. It's just too bad their drivers are dipsticks and could care less about finding houses around here or else I'd use them more often.

lso, Taceas, for someone that's been lying to FedEx for 2 years, you're right it would have been a 'bummer for you' to know I used UPS. No beautious bloodreds for you . . . due to your 'morals'. (Lucky for you, you didn't know and have them.) Before you get angry, you yourself said you're going to call a spade a spade where necessary (or something to that affect).

I haven't been lying, I've been hiding the truth.

I just never labeled my boxes, as MANY other people had been doing prior to the whole certification thing. Lying would be to label it "Fragile Glass" or "Perishable Food" some other term, which I did not.

See, semantics is always fun to play when trying to prove your own point.

:-offtopic
I'm not angry, I would just like to know what bee got up your arse these days. Please stop trying to play high and mighty. All you've done the past week or so is bait and badger people relentlessly, and frankly its sickening and immature.

I'm sorry I have morals and ethics, but I can't escape the fact that shipping snakes through UPS is wrong because they say its wrong, and I know its wrong. It's their company and they made the rules, I'm abiding by those rules. And I'm sorry that you can't see the apparently subtle differences between that and not getting refunds through Fedex while being allowed to ship snakes.

These Bloodreds are beautiful and you have a knack for selecting beautiful animals to breed. The animals were gorgeous and healthy, and you were a pleasure to deal with, I can't deny that fact.

But based on your shipping 'ethics' and personal attitude towards others lately, you sure are making it hard for me to ever want to do business with you again. I respect you and your opinions, but apparently that's a one-way street. I'm sorry, its just the way I feel.

If you have any further issues to address, please feel free to e-mail or PM me, we've already side-tracked this topic enough as it is.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I think it might be helpful, for those who are FedEx certified, to include a photocopy of the waiver either taped securely to the box so they can see it, or inside the little plastic pouch that you put the shipping label in (if you do that.) This would probably eliminate the "we can't ship this" thing if it ever did try to pop up. Although I dunno if there's any "sensitive" information on the waiver that you wouldn't want the customer to see. :shrugs:

 

[Drizzt80]

I kept getting juggled from "No, we don't" person to "No, we don't" person.
. . .
That's the crux of being certified, imho. 90% of the Fedex employees you talk to tell you its not allowed.

Exactly my point.

I look down upon it because shipping snakes through UPS is against their terms, aka not allowed, and I know it is.

Yet for over 2 years you did it anyway with FedEx as well, but now look down upon me and others that use UPS for doing it the same way because there's an 'alternative' that offers no guarantees of safety to the snake.

So in essence, it's the same as the Fedex policy in that regard. From my perspective, using UPS is use at your own risk, just as Fedex can be.

If that's all that concerns you, being allowed and getting refunds, use DHL.

Never was about getting refunds . . . IS about the safety and health of the snake. Which isn't guaranteed by 'lying' to UPS nor by being certified by FedEx. I was just looking for someone that could explain that to me. Serp's the only one that gave a response that would be helpful in ensuring the safety of the snake.

I haven't been lying, I've been hiding the truth.

Made me laugh!

:-offtopic
I'm not angry, I would just like to know what bee got up your arse these days. Please stop trying to play high and mighty. All you've done the past week or so is bait and badger people relentlessly, and frankly its sickening and immature.

Nothing's up my arse as I'm happily married AND heterosexual. Thanks for the concern though. Seriously, YOU are going to berate ME for being high and mighty??!! That's laughable! I don't even want to bother taking the time to search for your random 3 pages posts on proper internet/forum behavior/etiquette! I've never complained about them before, but maybe I should start . . .whatever. :shrugs:

I'm sorry I have morals and ethics, but I can't escape the fact that shipping snakes through UPS is wrong because they say its wrong, and I know its wrong. It's their company and they made the rules, I'm abiding by those rules. And I'm sorry that you can't see the apparently subtle differences between that and not getting refunds through Fedex while being allowed to ship snakes.

Interesting that you've found your morals and ethics when talking down to me, but didn't have them for 2+ years while you were shipping 'illegally'. Your month-old certification makes it alright now?! I don't get it. I don't understand the high and mighty comment when all I am trying to do is understand where being certified does absolutely anything to ENSURE the safety of the snake. That still hasn't been answered. Period.

But based on your shipping 'ethics' and personal attitude towards others lately, you sure are making it hard for me to ever want to do business with you again. I respect you and your opinions, but apparently that's a one-way street. I'm sorry, its just the way I feel.

Unfortunately, you can't please all the people all the time, and it's fruitless to try. So much for engaging in debate to get to the heart of the matter. Shipping practices vs. the safety of the snake.

If you have any further issues to address, please feel free to e-mail or PM me, we've already side-tracked this topic enough as it is.

Not sure it's been side-tracked (other than being told to stop being high and mighty) when I'm trying to find out what protections a snake has when it's shipped via FedEx when (as you state) 90% of the company knows it's wrong? Just so you have a reminder, here's what the Silent Lore originally posted:

For me UPS seems to be the best shipping route... however I see a majority of breeders are shipping via FedEx. Is there a reason for this?

Those that ship snakes, which method do you use and why?

For a direct answer I guess it's because it's 'legal' with FedEx though not necessarily healthier/safer for your snake. Whatever that proves? :shrugs:

D80

 

[Drizzt80]

I think it might be helpful, for those who are FedEx certified, to include a photocopy of the waiver either taped securely to the box so they can see it, or inside the little plastic pouch that you put the shipping label in (if you do that.) This would probably eliminate the "we can't ship this" thing if it ever did try to pop up.

Now that's a piece of advice/information that may address the 'problem' I've been trying to figure out. Thanks Serp.

Can anyone answer whether you can put this waiver on the outside of the box. Would it work. Has anyone done it already?

D80

 

[Joejr14]

Now that's a piece of advice/information that may address the 'problem' I've been trying to figure out. Thanks Serp.

Can anyone answer whether you can put this waiver on the outside of the box. Would it work. Has anyone done it already?

D80

Gosh, this thread got fun.

The waiver doesn't have any 'sensitive' material on it other than your 'company name', your signature, and your reps signature. Problem is, it's a full TWO page waiver. Where in the hell are you going to fit that on a 6x9x12 box?

I have never shipped a snake 'illegally', so I personally feel that I can 'jump' on you here. You're trying to say that you don't ship illegally, but you do. UPS does not allow the shipment of snakes, period. That is a company 'rule'. Therefore, doing something against those rules is 'illegal'. I have no idea how writing P. Guttatus on the box somehow makes that better. You're still doing something 'illegal', whether or not you're writing a latin name or writing "Live Harmless Reptiles".

You're trying to use the 'welfare of my snake/ethics' versus 'legality' issue, and IMO that makes no sense. Anytime you ship a snake, through ANY carrier, you are engandering the welfare of your snake. Doesn't matter if it USPS, UPS, FedEx, DHL, Delta, etc. What you ARE trying to say is that you're choosing to illegally use UPS so 'IF' they F-up, you can run and scream foul and get a refund. That has nothing to do with the welfare of your snakes, my friend, that only has to do with your wallet.

I'm not saying the FedEx way is great---there are certainly lots left to be desired, but I'd rather do it the 'legal' way---but that's an ethics call, I suppose.

 

[MegF.]

I've never had a problem getting snakes thru Fed Ex so it's never been an issue. Perhaps I would put it on there now. I do know that the one snake I had shipped to me by DHL ended up on my porch without a single knock to see if I was home. It was only because I was checking the tracking every 3 seconds that I saw it had been delivered. Troy had even written "Please Knock" on the box in big bold letters. I was not impressed. Never had that problem with Fed Ex.

 

[Drizzt80]

Gosh, this thread got fun.

. . . and it just keeps getting more funnerest!

The waiver doesn't have any 'sensitive' material on it other than your 'company name', your signature, and your reps signature. Problem is, it's a full TWO page waiver. Where in the hell are you going to fit that on a 6x9x12 box?

Thank you for this information.

You're trying to say that you don't ship illegally, but you do.

Ah, but that's where you're not listening, I'm not saying I DON"T ship illegally. I'm saying I don't outright lie about it . . . read that as label the box as "Glass" for example. I thought we had already determined that's a semantics issue?

UPS does not allow the shipment of snakes, period. That is a company 'rule'. Therefore, doing something against those rules is 'illegal'.

Neither does FedEx UNLESS you are 'certified'.

What you ARE trying to say is that you're choosing to illegally use UPS so 'IF' they F-up, you can run and scream foul and get a refund. That has nothing to do with the welfare of your snakes, my friend, that only has to do with your wallet.

Show me just where I have stated this? And don't even pretend to think that you know what MY concerns are when it comes to breeding or shipping snakes. You have absolutely no clue.

but that's an ethics call, I suppose.

This ethics crap, when it comes to shipping, is BS by your own admission:

Anytime you ship a snake, through ANY carrier, you are engandering the welfare of your snake. Doesn't matter if it USPS, UPS, FedEx, DHL, Delta, etc.

It's amazing how black and white the world seems to be for you and Taceas at the present moment. No shades of gray for either of you.

Noone has answered my question and has tried to turn the tables on my ethics of using UPS. Answer my question . . . Where/How/What does being certified with FedEx do for you other than being 'legal' to ship reptiles?
-It does NOT protect against undelivered or late delivered snakes.
-It does NOT protect against delayed shipment because a worker in a wharehouse who is doing their job, and checks your package, finds a snake which is ILLEGAL by company policy, doesn't know you have a waiver, and now holds the snake in a substandard warehouse for how long?
-It does NOT protect against anything other than you throwing in my face that you are 'legal'.
-It does NOT protect against the health of the snake. Period. And that Joe is the issue I have been enquiring about, not about refunds and saving money.

You can throw this ethics crap in my face from your own high horses (you and Taceas) and accuse me of being high and mighty, but my simple question from the beginning has not been addressed other than to say that I'm unethical and point the 'elitist certified FedEx shipper' finger in my direction. So far so that Taceas will not order snakes from me in the future because I am unethically using UPS (something she did with FedEx and UPS for 2+ years by her own admission) and then I come off as abrasive trying to re-explain my misinterpreted words. Talk about high and mighty!

Since not using FedEx is such an ethical question, and you (Joe) have admitted that no shipping is safe for live animals, then absolutely noone should be shipping using any carrier if your true concern is the health and welfare of your snake or reptile or fish or hamster.

It really cracks and roughens my gluteous maximus that I have to use Taceas-sized posts to clarify a very simple question that hasn't even been answered . . . The answer has become quite obvious to me that being FedEx certified doesn't 'get you anything' other than a higher horse than my own to ride. :shrugs: [sarcasm]Us peon redneck UPS users will just have to suffer through the jibes and taunts and pokes from the ethical righteous FedEx users.[/sarcasm] Srsly.
D80

 

[MegF.]

I will get a hold of my rep and ask if there is a way that warehouse personnel can check for legal certification. I'm sure it's right there on their computer, or perhaps you can write it on the box with your certification/account number.

 

[Drizzt80]

I will get a hold of my rep and ask if there is a way that warehouse personnel can check for legal certification. I'm sure it's right there on their computer, or perhaps you can write it on the box with your certification/account number.

Thanks Meg, that would actually be helpful to know . . . especially since about 20,000 posts back I indicated I may have to some day get FedEx certified myself . . . but oh, well it must have been missed by my detractors.

D80

 

[Lore]

WOW... and all I asked for was what way was the best for shipping snakes. Now I think I'm more confused than when I asked... :shrugs:

Seems to me that Fed Ex is fine, UPS is fine... some Fed Ex drivers suck, some UPS drivers suck, and all around you'll run into something at somepoint in time and these options are pretty much what we have to deal with until someone opens up Reptile Shipping Express

 

[eddie1976]

TO answer a question to the best of my knowledge. I have been certified to ship through FedEx for over a year now. My vertification is on file both in my local hub, and in their system. One time one of my packages got held up due to the fact I list both scientific names and common names on the box. A worker became convinced I was breaking some law, but when they called both my local hub and the regional office they were informed I am certified to ship the snakes. Does that help any?

 

[Drizzt80]

TO answer a question to the best of my knowledge. I have been certified to ship through FedEx for over a year now. My vertification is on file both in my local hub, and in their system. One time one of my packages got held up due to the fact I list both scientific names and common names on the box. A worker became convinced I was breaking some law, but when they called both my local hub and the regional office they were informed I am certified to ship the snakes. Does that help any?

Yes it does, a lot. How long did it delay the packages delivery (if at all)? Hopefully MegF is finding out if it's standard practice to 'check the system' or if you had one of the 'smart ones' intercept your box. Either way, thanks eddie!

D80

 

[MegF.]

I'm waiting for an answer from my rep. He's usually pretty prompt, but I didn't e-mail until late last night.

 

[Lore]

TO answer a question to the best of my knowledge. I have been certified to ship through FedEx for over a year now. My vertification is on file both in my local hub, and in their system. One time one of my packages got held up due to the fact I list both scientific names and common names on the box. A worker became convinced I was breaking some law, but when they called both my local hub and the regional office they were informed I am certified to ship the snakes. Does that help any?

Yes that helps alot, that tells me that for me it seems that Fed Ex is the best way to ship snakes at this time.

That is ... until I get more investors for Reptile Shipping Express!!! :crazy02: LOL!

 

[eddie1976]

That instance is the only time in well over 100 packages I sent that received any scrutiny. I have always shipped with labels clearly marked to what was inside. I get a lot of help from my rep, and from both of the stations I droip my packages at. My local one receives packages until 730 but if for some reason I am running late, I can run it up to Philly until 945. One of the best things I have found to do is be friendly and accomodating to the people behind the counter.
On an aside, if you are receiving packages from fedex and they are within a reasonable distance from your house, I recommend picking them up there. THe snakes will have that much less jostling around in the back of a fedex truck. ANd you can usually pick them up around 830-900 rather than waitng with bated breath for the delivery guy.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Where/How/What does being certified with FedEx do for you other than being 'legal' to ship reptiles?
-It does NOT protect against undelivered or late delivered snakes.
-It does NOT protect against delayed shipment because a worker in a wharehouse who is doing their job, and checks your package, finds a snake which is ILLEGAL by company policy, doesn't know you have a waiver, and now holds the snake in a substandard warehouse for how long?
-It does NOT protect against anything other than you throwing in my face that you are 'legal'.
-It does NOT protect against the health of the snake. Period. And that Joe is the issue I have been enquiring about, not about refunds and saving money.

Ok, so question 1 is "what's the risk?"

"How much risk is there to your snake being lost in transit or left on the porch?"

The biggest difference is the individual employee who will be delivering the box to the buyer's door. If that particular UPS driver is a good one and his FedEx counterpart is a bad one, then in that individual case UPS is a "better" option than FedEx. If it's the other way around, then FedEx is a "better" option than UPS for that particular destination.

The other question is "why should FedEx's policy have any bearing on which one you choose?"

If there are two stores and one of them doesn't allow people of my race to shop there and the other does, I would shop in the store that is not ignorant. My question would be, "why would I even WANT to shop in the other store and give them my business?"

What I mean is, by shipping certified with FedEx I am supporting their business practices, rather than giving my money to UPS, whose practices I disagree with.