Shipping of Snakes - Fed Ex or UPS ???

[bill38112]

At first, I was following this thread for the educational value to prepare me for the day when I shipped more than I was shipped to. But the thread has evolved to a philosophical point that I could not ignore.

I keep snakes as pets, in part, because it fits with my non-conformist persona. That means, by definition, I am less inclined to follow rules that have no practical foundation. Why a person, who finds a plastic box better suited to house snakes than store the sweaters for which it was designed, balk at shipping snakes via a process meant to preserve delicate fruit, is beyond me.

My attitude is FEDEX and UPS are private companies. They are not government entities Therefore, they cannot make law. They can only establish business operating procedures. If I choose not to follow their self serving company procedures, I am not doing anything illegal, I'm choosing to spend my money my way. These companies exist to provide me a service. If I find it more convenient to manipulate their Byzantine business practices, that's just being creative. There are no legal issues here.

It's obviously legal to ship snakes within the US. If a customer decides to conform to the service provider's procedures that's fine. If the customer decides to be obstreperous, obstinate, and obnoxious...he's still the customer.

I think the more we are difficult customers, the more the service providers adjust to us...and that is the natural order of things.

 

[kimbyra]

Howdy Folks!
Just thought I'd report my experiences.
I once received a non-snake ($200) item from UPS that was busted open (not opened for inspection) and broken up. It was obviously mishandled. It was insured, but when I went to claim it they wanted the item back and wanted to give the $ back to the person who insured it (who I don't know), not the purchaser (me). So I would have been out the cash and the broken item. I tried to resolve this, and see how to work it out, but they were not helpful at all. It never got resolved actually.
I have had many snakes shipped via Fedex, and have only had one problem. The package somehow got rerouted (it made it to Austin, then was routed back out!) and it was a day late. They did call, and I called, and talking went on. I was pissed of course and found out if I had a DOA because of THEIR fault, it would have been too bad for me. They also wouldn't think of refunding partial shipping money for not getting it there overnight. Don't they have an overnight guarantee when you pay for it to be overnight?
Anyway, from what I've seen FedEx has done thier job 99% of the time, even if though they have prob's and their employees seem to think that they "don't ship live animals".

I fully support getting certified to ship, and establishing good business relations with a shipping company that actually does ship snakes. So when I see an add for "Ships Fedex or UPS, my choice", and they wont ship fedex because their choice (UPS of course) is going to be cheaper, then I don't buy the snake. I just use my consumer power to support those who are certified Fed ex.

BTW, a Reptile Shipping Service sounds great to me! I'll get on the road in my Honda Element and start making the rounds across country. Theres gotta be some $ in that.

 

[MegF.]

Here is the reply I received from my rep. As usual, he replied with speed! I might add, that at least if you are certified, you lower the chances of having an animal confiscated since they can verify legal status. I've copied both the note I sent to him, and his reply.

Rod,
We have an argument raging on my snake forum about shipping. People seem to think that even if you are certified to ship live reptiles that if a worker doesn't know that and happens to check your package, they could hold your reptile for who knows how long. Is there some way to indicate on the box that you are certified to legally ship the reptiles? I understand there are still many reps, and presumably workers who think it's illegal to ship harmless reptiles thru Fed Ex. I'd hate to have a shipment held up and perhaps have my animals die because they are held for an extensive period in a hot or freezing warehouse.

Thanks for your help AGAIN!

Meg


Meg,


The reason for your certification is to prevent such things from happening. When I certify a client the documentation goes to 2 specific locations and are kept on file. One copy goes to legal and the other one goes to the Live Animal ship desk in Chicago. This way if a shipment is questionable certification can be checked very easily by calling these 2 sources. I have a gentlemen in Wisconsin that has been shipping reptiles with us for years now and has not experienced any problems what so ever. However, in the shipping business as you are aware there is always room for human error that could occur and unfortunately by signing the waiver forms that are required to be a live animal shipper one should be prepared to accept a loss if something should occur to one of your animals. The shipper should always be notified immediately in the event a box does come open and a reptile is discovered by a worker. This procedure should be followed whether it be a reptile or documents.



Rod


FWIW: A dedicated reptile shipping company would be awesome actually....

 

[kimbyra]

FWIW: A dedicated reptile shipping company would be awesome actually....

Gas is expensive, but if it were organized to where breeders would make many shipments at once to certain areas, etc, this could work. I mean I would rather have a hatchling delivered in an air conditioned car by a person who is into herp husbandry, then tossed about and exposed to weather like they are regularly. And there are also reptiles that FedEx I'm sure wont touch - the not so harmless ones. (Though there are laws that have to be obeyed of course.) I'm all for it. Any business partners?

 

[Serpwidgets]

This year we had at least one FedEx package that was delivered less than one hour late, and they refunded. We didn't even ask to be refunded.

 

[kimbyra]

This year we had at least one FedEx package that was delivered less than one hour late, and they refunded. We didn't even ask to be refunded.

WHat/! They told me that they don't do that.

 

[Drizzt80]

WHat/! They told me that they don't do that.

I'm guessing shipping costs were refunded for being late, not for the value of damaged product. I have had one late delivery via UPS that was refunded due to being late. There was no inquiry to the status of the package contents. I was refunded shipping costs, but not insurance or the extra fuel cost.

D80

 

[Drizzt80]

MegF thanks for that information from your rep. It's both encouraging but also doesn't quite solve 'the problem'. It's the human error factor that can't be 'fixed' so to speak. And you know it's not really that huge of an issue, except for that ONE time when it does happen. Like he said, he's got a guy in Wisconsin that's shipped for years and NEVER had a problem. But when that ONE time does happen, that ONE customer is going to have a bad experience. :shrugs:

D80

 

[MegF.]

I believe that would be true of any shipping company, so you really can't be 100% safe with any of them. However, I feel it does negate some of the problems of having your package confiscated needlessly. I've gotten quite a few snakes thru Fed Ex and not had a problem. I feel relatively confident that any of my shipments will go thru without a hitch. As confident as I can feel when any of my "babies" leave home! I will be having my Green Tree Pythons shipped Fed Ex to me once I reach my new home, so for what it's worth, I trust them to handle my expensive and precious cargo.

 

[Drizzt80]

The biggest difference is the individual employee who will be delivering the box to the buyer's door. If that particular UPS driver is a good one and his FedEx counterpart is a bad one, then in that individual case UPS is a "better" option than FedEx. If it's the other way around, then FedEx is a "better" option than UPS for that particular destination.

What I mean is, by shipping certified with FedEx I am supporting their business practices, rather than giving my money to UPS, whose practices I disagree with.

Serp, sorry I missed this post you made back on page 2. Your first paragraph is basically the 'topic' I was dancing around. Moronic delivery man/warehouse worker error. No way around it regardless of who ships your snake(s). Being certified doesn't protect against it.

The second question you asked is an entirely different topic and will force me to think through my current situation (again, I haven't been 'against' FedEx certification . . . was just questioning it's value). It's a lot more valid than the 'your unethical and doing things illegaly' jibes and taunts. :shrugs: Or maybe it's just worded differently, I don't know. But, again, it still doesn't solve the human error factor which in all reality is unavoidable regardless (which, if we want to be truly 'ethical', noone should be shipping.).

The more I had read various UPS vs. FedEx vs. DHL posts through the past year or so, there's been an 'elitist/snobbish' attitude towards those that don't use FedEx which I (correctly?) interpreted as a being because of the 'ethical' and 'legal' issue more so than the 'supporting FedEx policy' slant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this thread supports my interpretations. :grin01:

. . . and MegF . . .

I feel relatively confident that any of my shipments will go thru without a hitch. As confident as I can feel when any of my "babies" leave home!

I think that's exactly how I currently feel sending my 'babies' out with UPS. Like I first stated several posts and pages ago, I've never had any kind of problem with UPS (but one delayed shipment). If that should change, I'd definitely be 'forced' to switch to FedEx which has never been a real problem for me. I don't currently use FedEx for any reason other than 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' and am not opposed to it for any ethical/moral/boycott reasons. :shrugs:

Great, lively discussion, too bad many of my words were misinterpreted along the way, but that's life.
D80

 

[Joejr14]

Oh boy...

Ah, but that's where you're not listening, I'm not saying I DON"T ship illegally. I'm saying I don't outright lie about it . . . read that as label the box as "Glass" for example. I thought we had already determined that's a semantics issue?

So, it's okay that you're labeling it "Live Harmless Reptiles' even if UPS as a company does not accept snakes? Writing that on the package is being truthful, but you know what UPS's policy is and you're violating it, whether or not you write LHR or the latin name of the snakes.

Neither does FedEx UNLESS you are 'certified'.

And I'm certified---as you can be. It's a very simple process, Brent, which takes all of two things: Packing up a box and shipping it to the Testing center, and then getting into contact with your rep. About two weeks total. Then you don't have to 'not outright lie' about it, and you can ship LEGALLY.

Show me just where I have stated this? And don't even pretend to think that you know what MY concerns are when it comes to breeding or shipping snakes. You have absolutely no clue.

Well, in your first post on this thread you brought it up---in bold letters. Silly me for assuming that was a reason you were choosing to ship with UPS?

FedEx. The reason to be certified is that it's 'legal'. You DO NOT get any type of refund IF your package does not arrive on time. There is also NO compensation if you do not have a LIVE arrival. And that's because you have to sign a waiver stating you can't/won't receive those benefits!

It's amazing how black and white the world seems to be for you and Taceas at the present moment. No shades of gray for either of you.

Well, Brent, you're either shipping illegally, or legally. It's black and white, there is no grey.

Noone has answered my question and has tried to turn the tables on my ethics of using UPS. Answer my question . . . Where/How/What does being certified with FedEx do for you other than being 'legal' to ship reptiles?
-It does NOT protect against undelivered or late delivered snakes.
-It does NOT protect against delayed shipment because a worker in a wharehouse who is doing their job, and checks your package, finds a snake which is ILLEGAL by company policy, doesn't know you have a waiver, and now holds the snake in a substandard warehouse for how long?
-It does NOT protect against anything other than you throwing in my face that you are 'legal'.
-It does NOT protect against the health of the snake. Period. And that Joe is the issue I have been enquiring about, not about refunds and saving money.

Being FedEx certified lets you LEGALLY ship snakes in the US through FedEx, whom is the only company that has such a waiver. Shipping a snake through any other company (minus Delta) is illegal. Does their need to be another reason why to use FedEx?

Does UPS protent against late arriving snakes? Or delayed shipments? Since the waiver is on file, as Meg has stated, there should be no chance of such a situation happening where someone holds the box at a sorting location or hub.

Please, Brent, explain to me how ANYTHING UPS does protects the snake's health and welfare? Is there something magical that UPS does with shipments that make snakes safer?

Dude, you're way too defensive here. You have no other reason for sticking with UPS other than "It ain't broke, I ain't fixing it". That's fine, but since you were a stickler for getting a business name and doing the snake breeding business 'legitly', I just assumed you'd also be a stickler for shipping 'legally'.

And yes, no company does anything to protect your snake in transit. And yes, you're taking a huge risk shipping any snake. However, packing the snake securely and safely minimize these risks and make shipping snakes a relatively 'safe' procedure---no matter the company.

That being said---since there is no difference between FedEx and UPS---why not switch? At minimum, you're going to save 10% if you signup online with Fedex, which at least helps with the cost of overnight shipping, and if you hold packages at the location that saves even more money. I can send a package to the west cost and have it held virtually anywhere for $40. I don't consider that to be 'expensive'.

You keep talking about FedEx offers nothing, and that's why you'll be sticking with UPS---but again I ask you---what does UPS offer? Come up with a REAL reason other than, "it's comfortable" and "it ain't broken".

 

[MegF.]

I might also add that when you certify thru Fed Ex, your rep can provide you with his shipping code so that you can send your test box to the center and have it returned to you at no cost to yourself. I think it's good to find out if your box passes their minimum requirements including bursting strength testing. Mine passed with flying colors and it makes me feel better knowing that my packaging is more than adequate. You won't have the same thing with UPS or any other shipper for that matter.

 

[Drizzt80]

. . . and you can ship LEGALLY.

Keep on with your 'legal' speak. Never is/was/will be the issue for me. YOU and Taceas brought up ETHICS.

Well, in your first post on this thread you brought it up---in bold letters. Silly me for assuming that was a reason you were choosing to ship with UPS?

Really?
1st Post in Thread Nope, not even bold letters in this post.
2nd Post in Thread Nope, not even bold letters in this post either.
Maybe it's this one . . . 3rd d Post in Thread Nope, not that one either. Dayum, I'm having troubles finding it . . . Oh, please Joe lead the way.

Well, Brent, you're either shipping illegally, or legally. It's black and white, there is no grey.

TURN UP THE HEARING AID JOE!!! IT'S NEVER BEEN ABOUT LEGAL OR ILLEGAL FOR ME. THERE'S NO SUCH THING, THERE'S NO LAW AGAINST SHIPPING SNAKES IN THE US. IT'S COMPANY POLICY. IT'S ABOUT THE ETHICS OF THE HEALTH AND WELFARE OF THE ANIMAL.

Being FedEx certified lets you LEGALLY ship snakes in the US through FedEx, whom is the only company that has such a waiver. Shipping a snake through any other company (minus Delta) is illegal. Does their need to be another reason why to use FedEx?

Again, the LEGAL you speak of is COMPANY POLICY, not FEDERAL LAW. Get over it.

Does UPS protent against late arriving snakes? Or delayed shipments? Since the waiver is on file, as Meg has stated, there should be no chance of such a situation happening where someone holds the box at a sorting location or hub.

Did you read her email. Her rep goes on to state that it can and could happen. It was in English.

Please, Brent, explain to me how ANYTHING UPS does protects the snake's health and welfare? Is there something magical that UPS does with shipments that make snakes safer?

Did I say they did? Nope, I said what assurances does being certified protect against it? Thanks to MegF's work there's 'some' assurance, but no definites either.

Dude, you're way too defensive here. You have no other reason for sticking with UPS other than "It ain't broke, I ain't fixing it". That's fine, but since you were a stickler for getting a business name and doing the snake breeding business 'legitly', I just assumed you'd also be a stickler for shipping 'legally'.

Dude, don't read into my emotions. I'm not the one that can't read or interpret things. Also nice try comparing apples to oranges, but FEDERAL and STATE law dictates that I need to work as a business and pay my taxes, not some companies law.

That being said---since there is no difference between FedEx and UPS---why not switch? At minimum, you're going to save 10% if you signup online with Fedex, which at least helps with the cost of overnight shipping, and if you hold packages at the location that saves even more money. I can send a package to the west cost and have it held virtually anywhere for $40. I don't consider that to be 'expensive'.

Dude, you sound like a commercial.

You keep talking about FedEx offers nothing (to protect the snake from human error), and that's why you'll be sticking with UPS---but again I ask you---what does UPS offer? Come up with a REAL reason other than, "it's comfortable" and "it ain't broken".

I added the part you forgot to in your quote above. If only you would read, maybe you'd come to some understanding of what I've been saying. I'm out of breath trying to explain it to you Joe. Kinda like talking to a brick wall. You're basically too cool of a person for me.

D80

 

[Joejr14]

Wow Brent, that was a very mature post. Are you done with the name calling, or do we need to jettison back to middle school?

I can't read? I need to turn my hearing aid up? A brick wall?

You know, Brent, while I've respected you for a long time, you're making it very difficult right now for that to continue.

I don't even know why I'm bothering, but whatever.

So you're concerned with the ethics and health and welfare of the snakes---but you don't give a damn about the ethics of shipping something against company policy? Makes sense...

So you dislike the FedEx clause about no refunds....yet you're okay with the chance of UPS opening your package, and seizing your snake---never to be seen again.....again, makes tons of sense.

So again, since neither FedEx or UPS offer anything to protect the snakes welfare, why are you sticking with a company that DOES NOT ALLOW THE SHIPMENT OF SNAKES?!?!?

Of course, proceed with a response where you'll flip out, call me dense and stupid, like you've already done. I don't know what your issue is lately, Brent, but you're totally out of line with the name-calling in this thread.

I can deal with people having a differing opinion, a debate getting heated, but personal shots and attacks are totally uncalled for. Funny how you can complain to me in another thread about my conduct and behavior affecting you on this website, yet you can act like this without a second thought. Sorry to say, there's no difference between what I did, and what you're doing.

You can certainly add me to that list of 'no business', and after your display of maturity in this thread I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I'm done arguing/debating this with you, so don't bother to reply---I won't reply back. If you want to continue doing something that a company does not allow because "that's not the issue", then go right ahead.

Have a pleasant night.


:wavey:

 

[Drizzt80]

Even though you won't respond, I'm sure you'll read it so yeah . . .

So you're concerned with the ethics and health and welfare of the snakes---but you don't give a damn about the ethics of shipping something against company policy? Makes sense...

Yep, that's called Gray Joe.

So you dislike the FedEx clause about no refunds....

Again, with the words added to my mouth that I have NEVER spoken.

I can't read? I need to turn my hearing aid up? A brick wall?
Of course, proceed with a response where you'll flip out, call me dense and stupid, like you've already done. I don't know what your issue is lately, Brent, but you're totally out of line with the name-calling in this thread.

. . . but personal shots and attacks are totally uncalled for. Funny how you can complain to me in another thread about my conduct and behavior affecting you on this website, yet you can act like this without a second thought. Sorry to say, there's no difference between what I did, and what you're doing.

Srsly? Compared to your name-calling and personal attackes, I'm up for saint hood. You're the pot, keep calling me black if you'd like. Look back through the thread and see where the name calling and personal attacks started, maybe you'll surprise even yourself. Oh, and there's a big difference between my choice of words and your choice of words in those logs. Show me where I've EVER been that vile and disgusting in my treatment of other human beings. Good luck with that.

You can certainly add me to that list of 'no business', and after your display of maturity in this thread I'm sure I'm not the only one.

:sobstory: I'm not so stupid to realize that impressions will influence how others perceive you and do business with you . . .BUT I am not so pompous as to think that I know what others will or won't do based on my own opinion. Glad to hear that you can judge and dictate what the other members of this forum are going to do based on your opinion of me.

I trust that the other adults on this forum can see where I have argued against your uninformed and negligent posts. Especially where you've put words in my mouth and attempted to make the issues yours when in fact I've only had one.

D80

PS. You still haven't shown me where I said this was an issue of money or saving money or getting money back or your new one getting refunds. :shrugs:

 

[Drizzt80]

Upon further review and rumination I have recognized the problem. Joe your actions and words and behavior remind me of the playground bully. You are not the oft self-celebrated Grand Bubble Burster, no, you are the Neighborhood Bully. YOU put words in my mouth to serve your purpose of belittling me and my thoughts and desires and feelings. YOU attempt to make me appear to be the 'high and mighty' one by changing my argument(s). YOU cry fowl when language and behavior is used against you that YOU willingly use against others naturally and often. YOU refuse to change your own negative behavior and actions.

Yes, yes, YOU are clearly the neighborhood bully in this forum pushing others around as you see fit and to your personal rules and expectations. Many have been chased off this forum due to YOUR behavior because they either chose not to stand up to you or didn't know how, or didn't have the tools necessary. When someone, in this particular thread me, stands against that behavior YOU cry fowl. Classic behavior of the neighborhood bully. It's just too bad for you that I will not roll up in a ball and be misinterpreted by YOU.

It's a great thing for me that I don't need the validation of sitting in a chat room for 3 to 4 hours per night degrading trolls. It's a great thing for me that I don't need an internet forum to validate that I'm a good, honest person that attempts to do the right thing each and every day for and to the people important in my life.

I feel better now. Once the problem is identified it's easy to solve. Walk away from the bully. Buh Bye yourself. :wavey: . . . anyone know the words to "Breaking up is hard to do"? Joe and I are so OVER. :grin01:
D80

 

[Serpwidgets]

I think this pretty much sums it up.

 

[kimbyra]

I'm guessing shipping costs were refunded for being late, not for the value of damaged product. I have had one late delivery via UPS that was refunded due to being late. There was no inquiry to the status of the package contents. I was refunded shipping costs, but not insurance or the extra fuel cost.

D80

Nope. I specifically asked them for a partial refund on the shipping costs for being late.

 

[kimbyra]

Then again, maybe they said no to me, but refunded the sender? It looks like this thread is ending.
Cheers all.

 

[Drizzt80]

Nope. I specifically asked them for a partial refund on the shipping costs for being late.

Yeah, I was referring to the post Serp made regarding shipping refund . . . and yes, they would refund the sender (unless the receiver paid the company and not the shipper) not the receiver. You (I would assume) had actually paid the sender . . . IF they got a refund on that shipment, it would be their responsibility to pass that on to you!

D80