So what DO you get when you cross a Bloodred with a (het) Volcano from Darren Boyd?

[Kris]

Allright, let's refresh your memories. Here's mom:

Yup, she's a bloodred.

Here's Dad:

He's a guy I bought from Darren Boyd, Reptile Rainforest, as being het for Volcano.

Also to note,this is what he looked like as a youngun' and here's a shot of his belly:

Note the belly checks, and how they separate to the sides as though he was simply a bloodred het...

And now, what do their kids look like??

Normals!!!!!!

BUT... look at this...

Plain bellies! Bellies even plainer than their dad's. This particular hatchling was the first one out, and actually isn't even the wierdest one, they range from COMPLETELY plain bellies to checked halfway down.

So by breeding a het volcano to a bloodred, have I produces full fledged Volcanos? But, if bloodred was the main ingredient in this line in the first place, there should be some grey heads here, no? They're not quite finished hatching yet, so I suppose I should wait until they're all out before I draw any conclusions though. I'll let you guys know if anything wierder pops out.

Thanks for looking and any insight offerred,
Kris
in Montréal

 

[princess]

Well I have no insight for you but that is very interesting. Could dad have been an outcrossed blood? Could mum have been het ot homo volcano?

Very odd and very interesting! Well done.

 

[carol]

I've gotten hatchlings like that from crossing Bloodreds with "Non Bloodreds". That is typical for hatchlings het Blood. It may mean dad has some Bloodred in his family tree somewhere, but it is just as possible that dad has no Bloodred in him. Mom looks like an outstanding example so she probably has some really heavy influence.

 

[Kris]

The only flaw with that logic is that when I bred her (the bloodred) last year to a definitive NON-bloodred corn, ALL of the babies that resulted had patterned bellies... The pattern was separated down the middle obviously, sticking mostly to the sides, but still heavily checkered, none of the babies had plain bellies. I'll post a pic of one of the more odd ones tonight, with a PLAIN belly, lacking even the topmost checkers that this one pictured has.
Check out Darren Boyd's page on his volcanos, and how he says they have mostly plain/reddish bellies, and then I think you'll agree that the Volcano "trait" is definitely at work here somehow...

http://www.thereptilerainforest.com/Colubrids.html


Thanks,
Kris

 

[Drizzt80]

The only flaw with that logic is that when I bred her (the bloodred) last year to a definitive NON-bloodred corn, ALL of the babies that resulted had patterned bellies... The pattern was separated down the middle obviously, sticking mostly to the sides, but still heavily checkered, none of the babies had plain bellies. I'll post a pic of one of the more odd ones tonight, with a PLAIN belly, lacking even the topmost checkers that this one pictured has.

Quite honestly in this statement, I think you may be comparing apples to oranges as you bred her to two completely different males. . . Meaning, the strength of the males genes that you bred her to before may not have allowed the 'het bloodred' to show through as much as with this particular male. I've seen differences in hatchlings breeding the same pair two different years . . .

Either way, interesting hatchlings as far as the belly goes.

D80

 

[mrweaw]

Stupid question...what is a "Volcano"? Different term for a Lava? Or just something I have missed?

 

[carol]

I agree with Brent, I have also crossed Bloods with different "non blood" males and some produce clean bellies and some do not. At best this proves that your male may have some Bloodred in his lineage.

mrweaw... it looks like Kris posted a link above to more info, or doing a search here may help better than my explaination.

 

[ecreipeoj]

This test breedings seems to suggest that the Volcanoes and Bloods are not compatible as many people thought they would be. How many hatchlings did you produce from this mating?

Last year, I produce a lot of hets for Bloods and many other genes. There were quite a few with almost plain bellies, so hets for Blood can have the belly patterns that you are seeing. If the Volcanoes and Bloods were compatible, you should have produced a clutch that consisted of half Bloods, which it doesn‘t seem as if you did.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Stupid question...what is a "Volcano"? Different term for a Lava? Or just something I have missed?

The Volcanoes have nothing to do with the Lava line. They are simular to Bloods, with very red bellies. Follow the link above and you will find a right up about them.

I can see how you made the connection. Lava Bloods might end up being Magma Corns, which was a name that Kat suggested for Lavas when they were being names.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I have to concur with the previous statements about blood X non-blood can produce anything from normal-looking to almost blood-looking. I saw a checkerless amel that resulted from pewter X butter a while back, it was pretty cool. I've also seen pretty significant differences between half-siblings and full siblings, all hets. I have to agree with Joe, unless you got full-out bloodreds hatching from this clutch, or if it's a small clutch, your results suggest that this line has nothing to do with bloods or the diffusion gene.

So by breeding a het volcano to a bloodred, have I produces full fledged Volcanos?

IMO you have produced normals het for diffusion.

Beyond that, it would be necessary to recover F2s from an outcross to see if there even is such a thing as a "volcano" gene. It's not possible to prove a gene without producing grandkids, and I haven't heard of this happening. Has Darren Boyd done any test crosses yet? What were his results? Does he have any pictures or anything? :shrugs:

 

[Kris]

Hey Joe and Serp,

I agree, that this breeding has proven that the volcano has no relation to bloodred (diffusion). There were 19 eggs in the clutch, and 13 have hatched so far, and NO grey heads.
I emailed Darren, and he said that he was planning his test breeding with a bloodred for next year. He compared the line more to a line-bred trait such as an okeetee or miami phase rather than a recessive gene trait:
From his email yesterday:

"I know that in the past, I may have sold "Volcano hets", but upon doing more experiments, it's not the best way to do it, since they are selectively bred, like an Okeetee, or Miami phase, so "hets" is not 100% accurate. (Does this make sense?). Anyway, many of the "big" breeders I talked with seem to think that with all the line breeding I've done over almost 9 years, I would have produced Bloodreds."

And I think that's another good point. I'm going to keep a few of the more Volcano-ish babies back, and see how they turn out as adults. Also, if we can now accept that this is another line bred trait, and Volcano can get put in to the list along with Candycane, Miami, okeetee... Then I think I'll set about producing some Volcano Bloodreds................... Wonder what those would look like................

Cheers all,
Kris

 

[Marcel Poots]

I agree, that this breeding has proven that the volcano has no relation to bloodred (diffusion).

I am really sorry I am replying months after this thread has been posted but I just found it after Joe posted a link in a different thread. I want to give my small bits of input aswell. I don't think you have proved anything. I have hatched a complete Bloodred X Bloodred clutch where none (yes not a single one) of the hatchlings had a grey head. They all looked like this:

All of them had complete white bellies. You say you bred a 'het Volcano'. Meaning not a Homozygous Volcano snake. Some people believe Volcano is het (outcrossed) Bloodred. So that would make your Volcano a very outcrossed Bloodred. What happens if you breed it to a Bloodred? You get normals and ugly Bloodreds. I mean no disrespect by using the term Ugly. I call my own Bloodreds without grey heads and much pattern on the sides ugly bloodreds. You said you got some complete white bellies and some partial checkerd. That is excactly what I would expect from an outcrossed Bloodred bred to a Bloodred. Anyways, all of this is just my humble opion I think nothing is proven yet.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I believe the verdict is still out on the compatibly of the Volcano with Bloods. It is very easy to say that they are an Out crossed Blood, but that is almost the same thinking as those who automatically call a new looking Corn a HybIRd. Some people think they are an Out crossed Blood, but what are they basing this opinion on, a photo. There needs to be more information to come to any kind of logical conclusion.

Where are the wild caught Corns that resemble the Bloods anyway. Don’t we know the general local they were suppose to come from. If I was a locality collector, I would be putting some time in trying to locate some wild caughts that carry the Blood gene. Since it is co-dominant, you would think that there would be a few in the wild population to be found.

I agree that the Volcanoes look a great deal like Bloods, but they do seem to have more red color than Bloods, especially on their bellies and they seem to have a plain belly pattern as well, which is not consistent with a selectively bred trait. It would be very interesting to breed a Volcano with a plain belly pattern to a Blood. Even if they are not compatible, if both are co-dominant, then very little belly pattern may be present in double hets with the combined effect of two co-dominant traits for plain belly pattern.

Some up dated photos of any hatchlings that you held back from this mating would be appriciated.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I agree: Gray heads are not a requirement of the diffusion gene, so this isn't what proves them as homo diffused or not homo diffused.

But looking at the bellies on the hatchlings, it's pretty clear that they are not homo for the diffusion gene. Those aren't just hints of checkering, it's full-out checkering. I've got an "ugly blood" with a totally normal head pattern and not much diffusion on the side, and it still has not even a hint of anything resembling checkers. These (volcano X blood) have complete checkers on the front, and the most extreme one (last pic in the first post of this thread) still has the edges of the checkers on the belly on the back, along with pretty much full checkers on the front. That's a misidentification of "plain belly." Based on that, IMO there's no way those hatchlings are bloods. So the only thing that has been proven is that crossing volcano X blood can produce typical looking hets that look just like "normal X blood" or "anery X blood" etc.

I don't think we ever heard how many hatchlings were produced. Only the two were mentioned or pictured. But if this was a decent-sized clutch with no "full-out diffused" hatchlings in it, it's a pretty good bet that the volcano line is not carrying the diffusion gene.

IMO the best test (first anyway) is volcano X volcano. If they are het for an on/off gene like diffusion, there should be normals, volcanos, and "bloods." If they are het for a plainbelly gene, there would still be a pretty obvious split in phenotypes. If, on the other hand, they are just selectively-bred, you'd see a nice continuum in the offspring.

If you get an on/off type of indication, then crossing one to a diffused corn should make some diffused offspring if it's the diffusion gene at work. Since the volcano in question clearly is not homo diffused, it should create a pretty clear split (if it's het diffusion) or just a continuum (if it's selectively bred or some other gene) none of which are totally checkerless.

The two above tests should narrow down the possibilities pretty clearly. But you can't base breeding trials on two misidentified hatchlings. We need to see some actual results, "good" or "bad," before any kind of call can be made.

 

[stephen]

lol

Belly Patterns dont mean a thing nor does grey heads ,I have some amels with no pattern on there bellys and red half way up with no bloodred genes involved,also normal stripes and motleys alot have grey heads with again no bloodred genes involved. the pics of the bellys of the babys you posted look like most of my het animals,but none het for bloodred!

 

[Kris]

Sorry I'm late...

Hey everyone,

Sorry to get in so late here, I hadn't been checking my email lately and had no idea this was revived!

I kept back two babies (1.1) from the clutch of 19 (which was about 15.4 and mostly non feeders...........grrrrrrrrrr.....) wholesaled off most of the rest.

The two I kept have mostly plain bellies with some red checkering. I'll post pics this weekend.

The clutch varied with some being totally checkered, and some being totally plain bellies, and most being somewhere in the middle.

I'll post pics of the ones I have in a few days, over the holidays I should get some spare time.

Thanks for checking up!
Kris

 

[GreenmanExotics]

Well, I guess I will get in on this since I have 1.1 of Kris's Volcano het Bloods as well as a pair of Darrens Volcano het Amels. I posted them a week or so ago to get opinions from the genetics experts, fully knowing what they are are supposed to be, but looking for info from people with way more experience than me.

Here are those Volcano Het Bloods and Amels
Gideon

Ruth

Vesuvius

Helen

The first two are het Amel and the second two are het Bloodred. With the het Bloodreds showing very much more red in the lower bellies.

 

[Kris]

So the last two are the ones from me?
Looking good!

I think they're even bigger than mine are at this point, they really look great.

Glad to hear they're doing well for you.

It's funny though, the pic of the volcano outcrosses posted above look nothing like what mine looked like as a juvie... they must really vary depending on what they're bred to.

Kris

 

[Tim Madsen]

You get a Bloocano!

 

[Kris]

Finally an updated pic...

and his belly;

I wasn't able to get pictures of the other one I kept, it's in shed, so I'll try again next week.

They seem to look fairly normal, although they do seem to have a lot more red.
Not much sign of diffused patterning though...

Thanks for looking,
Kris