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Talking to a Cohabber...

Vicky, if cannibalism is not rare, how come so many people over here still practice co-habbing? Don't you think even those ignorant co-habbers would keep on doing it if their snakes kept eating each other? The vast majority of cannibalism pics I have seen, are from hatchlings. Most co-habbers I know, keep them in separated tubs for the first few months. They are separated from birth. Yet on this forum I see so many bunches of hatchlings on photo's and especially large breeders keep them together in the incubation box until the first shed as far as I know. That is when cannibalism happens most of the time apparently, since US breeders keep them separated the rest of their lives. Yet we are looked down upon by many because of co-habbing juveniles and adults. Of course I agree that piling 5 corns of different sizes in a one corn sized viv is not a good plan, but it would hardly make me worry about cannibalism. Piles of fresh hatchlings do.

Further, I seriously think that breeding a female corn that is all ready, is more risky than co-habbing, yet about anyone talking down on co-habbers, breeds corns or is OK with that. You know, breeding is not necessary to enjoy snakes... If they do not want to risk their corns health at all, maybe they'd better reconsider their breeding plans.
 
SnakeAround said:
Further, I seriously think that breeding a female corn that is all ready, is more risky than co-habbing, yet about anyone talking down on co-habbers, breeds corns or is OK with that. You know, breeding is not necessary to enjoy snakes... If they do not want to risk their corns health at all, maybe they'd better reconsider their breeding plans.
Click to expand...

I know it's :-offtopic, but I agree with this completely. I used to be one of those that just HAD to breed, at least once, because it looked soooo fun... Since then, I've pulled my head out of my bum and started noticing just how over-bred a lot of reptile species are. Now I can hardly glance at the breeding forum here, because there are dozens of people still even figuring out how to take care of their corns, and yet already raving about the 2, 3, 6+ corn snake clutches they're expecting this year, and then you have those who've barely been into snakes for a couple months already asking for advice on breeding them, and no one bats an eye or cares to mention that, hey, maybe you should wait awhile before you throw your snakes in together. (I know, I'm not helping things by not saying anything, but it still annoys me.) One of the other forums I frequent is a Bearded dragon forum, and, even though I still wince looking at the breeding forum (same phenomenon: EVERYONE feels like they HAVE to breed their dragons), at least there every person who posts gets a couple long speeches on the ethics of breeding, the danger to their animals, the expense of raising babies, the difficulty to find homes for an already overbred species... Etc, etc.

Okay... Sorry... Went off on a tangent. Went to bed shortly after my last post... Only for the dog to wake me up 4 hours later to go outside! So my mental state isn't much better today than it was last night... LOL.

**(Disclaimer: I've looked at all of about 4 breeding threads on CS.com over the course of the last 2 years, give or take, so, if the above statements no longer apply, I apologize. And am happy to hear it. I'm just assuming things haven't changed based on the whopping 2 threads I've peeked at this year...)**

Anyway, still incredibly annoyed by this cohabbing person.

Actually, she reminds me of someone in my area who keeps snakes. Some months ago, she posted a Craigslist ad for a Corn snake/Ball Python hybrid. Yes.. A corn/ball. From the picture, though, the snake appeared to be nothing more than a really fat Anery corn. The ad was posted on a couple different forums (I believe this was one of them), garnering a great deal of attention and, I'm sure, dozens of emails informing her that, no, she did not have a corn/ball hybrid.

Fast forward to the present day, a year or so later (don't mind me, I can't remember when the heck that ad was posted to save my life!), and it turns out this same person is an acquaintance of my roommate (also a snake-keeper). She STILL is entirely convinced her snake is a corn snake/ball python hybrid, and absolutely REFUSES to accept that she might actually be wrong, despite loads of people informing her otherwise.

I fear this ferret lady may be like the Cornball lady. She'll keep on doing what she's doing. She could have them both die as an indirect result of cohabbing (i.e. one developing an illness and spreading it). She could have one actually cannibalize the other. She could have one stress the other literally to death. She could have a premature breeding on her hands, wind up with a small, weak clutch and an eggbound, emaciated, and/or dead female. Maybe someday she'll get a Slink Jr, toss it in with them, and have the bad luck of that #3 bringing in some deadly parasite or illness. But odds are, she'll find some excuse why that was the exception to her imaginary rule of corn snakes needing company, and keep on cohabbing no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary. You can't fix stupid, nor can you fix massive ego.
 
I still am very curious about the evidence against co-habbing, except those few cases of hatchlings cannibalising and a story or two about adult corns cannibalising. I do consider the 7 years I co-hab without any proof of problems related to it, as a proof it is OK if done with caution. Where is the burden of cases gone wrong against it? I guess since USA keepers have no experience with it.... well fill that in yourselves....
 
SnakeAround said:
I still am very curious about the evidence against co-habbing, except those few cases of hatchlings cannibalising and a story or two about adult corns cannibalising. I do consider the 7 years I co-hab without any proof of problems related to it, as a proof it is OK if done with caution. Where is the burden of cases gone wrong against it? I guess since USA keepers have no experience with it.... well fill that in yourselves....
Click to expand...
From what I've seen, breeders with large vivs (double-wardrobe sized) with cohabbed single-sex groups of adult corns, healthy, feeding well and then cohabbed for the breeding season with their intended mates, it certainly seems a viable alternative to the rack system. I believe Kathy Love intended to try just such a set up at one point before she moved from Florida.
I know there are people with bad experiences of early breeding due to mistakes in sexing, and of cannibalism in hatchlings, but are there any cases of cannnialism in adults reported at all?
 
I know about many cases of early breedings that went well, as I know about breedings between what we call breeding ready corns have gone fatally wrong.

I have heard on here about one breeding session gone wrong because the breeder went to take a phone call and did not notice the female eating the male until it was too late. And about an occasion where a co-habbed female started to eat her viv mate an hour after being fed. The owner was in time though to stop it.
 
Welp, regarding the OT portion of my post, I'm happily being disproved after browsing a few pages of the breeding forum. Most certainly not as many new corn owner breeding for giggles as a couple years ago! ... Sorry, still OT, I know! :p

SnakeAround: I personally don't like cohabbing because, when it comes right down to it, most snakes aren't social. Whether or not they show stress or get sick or eat each other, I don't think it's productive to house snakes together who, generally speaking, would prefer to have their own territories minus the competition. Quite like if one of us were locked in a room with an enemy. Even if it's a really big room, you're still going to be forced to cross paths with that enemy on a regular basis. That and there are risks, even if they are slim, which should be accounted for and weighed in when deciding..

Then there's the impracticality of not being able to tell who left that funky-looking poop or who exactly regurged, or the issue of disease/parasites spreading very quickly between snakes housed in the same viv (not saying that doesn't happen with a collection of individually housed snakes... It would just happen faster/more thoroughly with the snakes who share a living space).

I think what I'm trying to say is, at least IMO, even if you argue that it can be done without any major stress/risk to the animals (which I'm sure it can be with enough precautions), there are still enough arguments against it to strongly reconsider cohabbing. Again... Just my opinion. :)
 
You are very right about that Floof. In a perfect world we would provide our snakes each a spacious naturalistic viv. I usually compare co-habbing with racks therefore. Those have some disadvantages I think too. That is why I prefer co-habbing above racks, but both methods are not the best we can provide our corns with.
 
SnakeAround said:
I still am very curious about the evidence against co-habbing, except those few cases of hatchlings cannibalising and a story or two about adult corns cannibalising. I do consider the 7 years I co-hab without any proof of problems related to it, as a proof it is OK if done with caution. Where is the burden of cases gone wrong against it? I guess since USA keepers have no experience with it.... well fill that in yourselves....
Click to expand...

Well, here are some cons.
Transmission of disease is pretty much a 100% chance if one snake gets ill with a communicable disease.
Breeding of females who are too young to breed, resulting in possible egg binding and death.
If one regurges, unless they had a visible bump you'll never know which snake did it.
Suspicious feces is also impossible to tell who did it.
Fighting. Not full out teeth and hissing fights, but head shaking/chasing. Very stressful.
You're right, cannibalism is much more common in hatchlings. And in hatchlings it is not rare. So there's the risk of death by cannibalism.
Stress causing lack of appetite. I've seen threads on here where someone gets two new corns, keeps them together, and they don't eat until separated.

While it is very difficult to tell how happy a snake is exactly, it stands to reason that a solitary animal should not be kept in a communal environment. We should not assume that just because we, personally, cannot readily see any adverse effects that they aren't happening.

I do not think all snakes will automatically die, or stop eating, or eat each other... but the chance is there, and it's not a like "Oh, that's not really a big deal." it's a "That could potentially KILL my animal."

Plus there are statistics. not everyone who smokes gets cancer, even if they smoke their whole lives. Not all snakes kept together will have problems.

But it's still not worth the risk in any way to me.
 
I seriously consider smoking way more dangerous to a person than co-habbing to a corn, but I get your point.

Well, here are some cons.
Transmission of disease is pretty much a 100% chance if one snake gets ill with a communicable disease. - True, but how much more snakes will be ill if the illness has managed to get in anyway? I do agree this is a con but only if you compare it to not co-habbing while being very, very tight on disinfecting between snakes. I have no idea if most people do are.

Breeding of females who are too young to breed, resulting in possible egg binding and death. I see so many adds with people telling how a couple has been together forever and laid eggs twice or three times and they are only like for or five years old... I believe relatively weak muscles and being fat are bigger concerns. But I als know that serious, educated breeders over here who co-hab, do not keep pairs together, except for breeding purposes. Of course sexin wrong can happen... I have not had such a case though.

If one regurges, unless they had a visible bump you'll never know which snake did it.
Suspicious feces is also impossible to tell who did it. - I do not feed both snakes in a viv at the same time so I do know
Fighting. Not full out teeth and hissing fights, but head shaking/chasing. Very stressful.
I have not ever seen the first type, I have seen shaking and chasing between males that started to feel their hormones. That is a reason to separate them. All my adult males are in their own vivs, usually I separate them before they experience their first breeding.

You're right, cannibalism is much more common in hatchlings. And in hatchlings it is not rare. So there's the risk of death by cannibalism.

Stress causing lack of appetite. I've seen threads on here where someone gets two new corns, keeps them together, and they don't eat until separated. I have personally experienced many corns being put together and they keep on eating like they did before. Yet soem do not like to be co-habbed. Those I separate,

While it is very difficult to tell how happy a snake is exactly, it stands to reason that a solitary animal should not be kept in a communal environment. We should not assume that just because we, personally, cannot readily see any adverse effects that they aren't happening. - True, that is why they should not be kept in racks without any stimulating stuff either IMO. I prefer co-habbing above racks. It would be best to just not keep them as a pet if you think about it :p

Thanks you for the civil discussion, appreciate it. Yet there is no load of cases actually supporting your arguments by showing it actually happens. I would be way more convinced if my snakes showed the signs of fighting/stress people talk about. I have honestly hardly ever noticed any violent or stressed out interaction between my corns, except maybe a twist and a bump when first introduced and they did not notice the other snake before they actually made physical contact. Usually the new ones goes exploring for a while, gets into the same hide as the resident when it is done and things are fine. The amount of corns showing any suspicious change in behavior from being co-habbed is quite low. I'd say I have had about 5 or 6 during 7 years I keep corns. I think I have cared for about 80 juvenile and adult corns during these years, most females have had at least a try at co-habbing when bought as an adult. Juvies bred by me have all grown up in groups of three or two until being separated (males). Females are kept with two unless they are planned to be bred. They are separated until I know they are gaining weight sufficiently after laying, or longer if I do not need their vivs for juvies or a snake that needs to be kept alone.
 
Floof, I was one of those people a couple of years ago who wanted to breed just to get the experience... I grew up and realized I had not the time, money, (did I say time). To deal with any clutches of snakes. I still want to breed, but I have specific plans and specific lines that I need to get a hold of before I join the breeders club. There are two main projects that I want to start, and then a couple offshoots for much later down the road.
But, I am still in no place, financially or time wise to start breeding, which is why I did not breed two of my corns this season.
 
I think the biggest problem I see with cohabbing over here is that it is usually done by people who don't know snake care that well to begin with. I don't personally like it but I can definitely see where it can work for someone like SnakeAround who clearly has the knowledge and experience to see where problems can happen and how to prevent them. The OP's woman in question is not one of those people.
 
Great post Dragonsden. I'm happy to see co-habbing does not lead to being bashed immediately anymore. It took a few years but I'm happy to be able to have some decent conversations about it. I do agree noobs better start with a few corns in separate tubs or viv to start learning about keeping them but usually the lack of knowledge at pet shops or their urge to sell gets in the way. At the other hand, I have seen so many proofs that even those non educated and or / ignorant keepers have little trouble to deal with, that I am not really anxious about it. I always explain why co-habbing is not the preferred way to keep corns if one has the space to keep them separated. Yet I cannot ignore what many people at my table have seen and heard about others doing it without any problems. It would seem a bit odd to be the only seller/breeder to really bash co-habbing if it is a very common practice around here. However, explaining the cons and the precautions is appreciated by newbies, so I do take advantage of it :p Further, any of my clients can keep in touch with me for questions so if they do co-hab and their are signs of problems, big chance they'll ask me for advice and/or remember my explanations. I have advised succesfully to separate snakes or at least split up a large group by sexe. Many decided to buy two females or just a female first instead of a hatchling couple to grow up together after a major talk about it.
 
Hmm... I am scared by beginners doing things the hard way. That is my hesitation with cohabbing. It is easier to learn how to care for one corn in one viv as a beginner.

Does this girl know the sexes of her snakes? Does she know how to handle health problems?

She doesn't know the morphs of her snakes. That is a red flag.
I mean, if you are making educated risks, that is a part of snake owning.
I would not engage her about cohabbing directly but rather on the point that all snakes a not the same.

Garters are not cobras are not balls are not pythons.

Corns have space requirements and they have dietary preferences.
Is the viv large enough for two corns? Are there appropriate heat spots or hides? Do the corns eat and shed correctly? Does she realize that corns can and will eat smaller snakes, especially if they are fed together?

Don't argue cohabbing. Argue well-being and such. Argue risks of cohabbing, especially if she doesn't know what signs of stress or illness or gravidness to look for.

I think that cohabbing is a calculated risk, but I find tha most people like her (have two or so snakes, don't really know about snakes) cohab to save money or because they are worried the snakes will get lonely.
 
Great post Naagas. I do think though that not knowing morphs does not have to be an indication there is lack of knowledge concerning care.
 
I agree... Even without the obsession about morphs, I can still see a person wanting to know what it's called (especially with more than one animal) and maybe googling what the person claimed it was...
 
Here in Europe cohabbing seems to be quite usual. For example, I got my corn from a grower who had 10 adult snakes (8 corns and 2 rainbows), 2 in each viv. The younglings (at 6 months point when I got mine) were also 2 in each box. I've understood that snakes are very good in ignoring each other - "if it's not food or doesn't try to eat you, no need to be bothered with it".

It's not uncommon to see snakes together in the wild - they mostly hunt alone, but will gather for certain reasons, for example the European Viper gathers for nesting over winter in suitable burrows, or for basking on suitable rocks during the cold season. Also in Rattlesnake it's been noted that juveniles and pregnant females tend to gather together with kin, apparently for protection.



Obviously, the behavior and stress symptoms of cohabbed snakes need to be monitored, especially when putting the snakes together for the first time. I've heard that males especially can have "pecking order" disputes during springtime, but this should be settled within a few hours, so aggression over longer periods is probably not a good sign.
 
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