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The ball python madness

I have to admit. My husband will spend thousands on an Amazing Spider-man comic book! He has issue # 3 cgc graded at a 4.5, he spent a lot of money on! He is also willing to fork over the money to buy a yellow belly female bp. Thats how much he loves them.

I am willing to fork out some cash for corn snake morphs from great breeders. But really my tastes are cheap and bland compared to the morphs that are out there.
 
Ball pythons have less than zero appeal to me, but I don't think it's absurd to spend that kind of money on them if you're passionate about them.

If I had the extra money, I'd snatch up this hognose in 0.2 seconds. She's INCREDIBLE!
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=97&de=925907

Still, I know short stubby snakes aren't everyone's thing, and probably a lot of people here wouldn't pay that for her. That's fine by me. :)
 
ceduke said:
Ball pythons have less than zero appeal to me, but I don't think it's absurd to spend that kind of money on them if you're passionate about them.

If I had the extra money, I'd snatch up this hognose in 0.2 seconds. She's INCREDIBLE!
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=97&de=925907

Still, I know short stubby snakes aren't everyone's thing, and probably a lot of people here wouldn't pay that for her. That's fine by me. :)
Click to expand...

That is a great looking hognose. I have been thinking of getting in to them for a little bit now. Not to get to far off topic, but they are venomous right? Do you need a lic to own them?
 
SquamishSerpents said:
I am honestly SHOCKED at the content in this discussion. There seems to be a thick black line between the BP community, and the corn/colubrid community. DO NOT LIKE!

I am a corn person, and a python person. I see the appeal of both.

How many of you on this forum have riced out cars? Motorcycles? ATVs? Other "frivolous" purchases that the majority of people can't seem to understand why you spend so much $ on? We all like certain things. If you don't like it, that's you.

Same thing. If you don't like balls, don't breed them. Pretty simple. No need to rag on the ball community for how expensive some morphs are. Has anybody mentioned the Toffee ball python?

The importation of the original Toffee male cost somewhere in the 6 figures. So 40K is nothing.

Toffee-Ball-Project-Update.aspx


For everybody who thinks it's all about money in the ball python world, check this out:

Whose making $ Breeding Ball Pythons?

It's just a small snapshot of some people in the BP industry, but it is still fairly accurate. There are very, VERY few people who make $ at this gig.

As for the comments about how they all look the same? Guess what, people who breed balls think the same about corns. It's because if you don't know both species and the related morphs and morph combinations, YES they all look the same. Do you know how to read Chinese symbols? No? Well, they probably all look the same to you. It's the same basic concept.

I don't know why some people need justification for how much ball pythons cost, that's just the way it is. As already stated, supply & demand is a huge part of it. There aren't as many Albino ball pythons as there are Amel corn snakes, because corn snakes have 20 eggs in their clutches and balls have 6.

I don't mean to be repeating myself, I mostly just came in here to express how shocked I am at the division within the reptile community. We're supposed to be sticking together, not criticizing fellow breeders for their own personal decisions on how much $ to spend on a snake.
Click to expand...

Amen-Brother.jpg


Well Amen sister actually!! I can't praise you enough for this. I highlighted a chunk in bold for emphasis.

If you don't like the price, don't spend money on it. Simple. Easy. Done. I think people who pay $700 for those designer dogs are stupid. It's a flipping mutt, go to a shelter and get one. However, if it's something they truly want, then by all means spend YOUR money on it. It makes you happy, go for it.

The people raging don't even realize it, but at this point all the sand kicking about prices just comes off a jealousy. Why the heck else would you care? That's really ridiculous.
 
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Reptileman81 said:
That is a great looking hognose. I have been thinking of getting in to them for a little bit now. Not to get to far off topic, but they are venomous right? Do you need a lic to own them?
Click to expand...

They are rear-fang venomous. You don't need a venomous license in Florida.

And that is an amazing snake! And, as far as price goes, that's a top-of-the-line hoggy, and if someone REALLY wanted it, they could go crazy and get it.

Unlike a 40k BP. But- who cares if that's fair or not. Snakes aren't socialistic.
 
I dont think it is jealousy. I just feel that some of the more common BP morphs should be more readily available to the average Joy that just thinks that morph is sweet. Really my beef is not on the 40K morph. Its more towards the many morphs that are staying in the $3-6K area. Just how long and how any animals of those morphs have to be out there before the prices come down a 1000, 10,000, 100,000. I get that a rare new morph of anything can have such a high price tag. First off there would only be a small handful of them out there to be so rare and those that even wanted to sell them and not have them make more of that morph in the future wants to get a great price for it.

In that sense yes a bit of jealousy happens. I produce the next great corn morph I would and could never get that kind of money for it even if it is one of a kind.

Like I said its the other morphs that have been in the hobby for several years that still hold in my eyes huge price tags 2-6K. It was said earlier that the Albino BP is not as available as a Amel Corn. I really dont think this is very true. Next time you are at a show count the Albino BP's. I see them at ever other table now a days still fetching over $500. Yet 18 years ago when the Daytona show was still in Orlando there was only 1 Albino BP in the whole show and 3 Albino Boas. The Albino BP was fetch 3K back then. Just how long is this morph going to be that much. Just how long will it take for that 40K morph to be available to someone on a budget.

These are just my thoughts and opinions. I in no way intend on hurting anyone's feelings or telling them they are A holes for selling their animals for so much. I am just stating that at some point a morph should be more available to the every day consumer/hobbiest/keeper.
 
Reptileman81 said:
I dont think it is jealousy. I just feel that some of the more common BP morphs should be more readily available to the average Joy that just thinks that morph is sweet. Really my beef is not on the 40K morph. Its more towards the many morphs that are staying in the $3-6K area. Just how long and how any animals of those morphs have to be out there before the prices come down a 1000, 10,000, 100,000. I get that a rare new morph of anything can have such a high price tag. First off there would only be a small handful of them out there to be so rare and those that even wanted to sell them and not have them make more of that morph in the future wants to get a great price for it.

In that sense yes a bit of jealousy happens. I produce the next great corn morph I would and could never get that kind of money for it even if it is one of a kind.

Like I said its the other morphs that have been in the hobby for several years that still hold in my eyes huge price tags 2-6K. It was said earlier that the Albino BP is not as available as a Amel Corn. I really dont think this is very true. Next time you are at a show count the Albino BP's. I see them at ever other table now a days still fetching over $500. Yet 18 years ago when the Daytona show was still in Orlando there was only 1 Albino BP in the whole show and 3 Albino Boas. The Albino BP was fetch 3K back then. Just how long is this morph going to be that much. Just how long will it take for that 40K morph to be available to someone on a budget.

These are just my thoughts and opinions. I in no way intend on hurting anyone's feelings or telling them they are A holes for selling their animals for so much. I am just stating that at some point a morph should be more available to the every day consumer/hobbiest/keeper.
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I feel you Josh. I really do.

Morphs are dropping in price, but they won't drop fast because, for whatever reason, ball python sellers don't seem to price crash as often.

I personally have paid less than $300 per ball python in my collection, excluding one. She was a dream snake purchase for $1,100. You can get simple single gene animals and make amazing combo gene offspring. That's one of the most fun things about ball pythons. Nearly everything is codom, you don't need two copies of the gene like in corns.

I am going to disagree, on amel corn to albino BP ratio. I will bet my house that amel corns out number albino ball pythons 50 to 1, or more. The reason you don't see them at shows is breeders wholesale amel corns because no one will pay more than $10 to $15 for a plain amel. It's better for them to wholesale.

In regards to jealousy, it just how things are coming across.

Let's say my neighbor buys a $40k sports car. Do I think it's ridiculous? Yes! Somewhere deep down do I wish I had money to toss 40K on a car? Yeah, that might be nice.

But I'm not going insult the guy for buying a sports car. He chose what to do with his hard earned money. He knows the market for sports cars and made his own choice to plop down $40k.

Reptileman81 said:
Just how long will it take for that 40K morph to be available to someone on a budget.
Click to expand...

No offense, but that would be like asking how long before a Lamborghini Aventador will be available to the common working man. Never.
 
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Wow, express an opinion and this is what happens, really should have known better on this topic :shrugs: its just my opinion...
 
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I vend with a BP breeder. He's a good friend of mine and we enjoy debating the pros and cons of either species. I personally don't care for balls because they don't move and are difficult feeders (in my experience). He doesn't care for corns because they are too quick and strikey (in his experience). However, we do help each other with sales, care, etc. Would I think he's crazy for buying a 20K brown snake? Would I be jealous I can't sell mine for that much? No, I would be happy for him because balls are a species he is just as passionate about as I am with my corns. I don't really get all the snarking surrounding this topic. To each his own, imo.
 
Interesting discussion... anyone who has ever dealt with morphs probably had the same argument with himself...
Before I go into how I see things, I would like to note that from personal experience... it is usually the new-average keepers who complain about the prices of morphs... usually though, the moment they get their hands on some good stock morphs, suddenly, it's alright to demand top price for offspring.

As I see it... scoring a new morph is not very different from winning the lottery... often-times said breeder pays top dollar for an animal that appears to be different... Boids are a deal more complicated to breed, and a deal less prolific, than Corns- so there's a real risk of said animal not to get to adulthood or to breed successfully... once you're over the hump(which can take up to 5 years easy)- who says it's even genetic? if it's recessive, you could be talking about a 8-10 years wait.

So... after all of this, it is expected from him to sell the offspring he produced after spending quite a bit of money and investing 8-10 years for affordable prices... while bearing in mind that the price will continue to drop as each year passes and availability increases... yeahhhh, I call this as being unrealistic.

Morphs are not mandatory... they don't change anything other than the color/pattern of the animal... why must they be available to anyone? One can easily acquire the classic version of the animal at a VERY affordable cost.

Top dollar morphs cost as much since BP's, and other Boids, are way less prolific- the demand is high, the availability is low, and a breeder is entitled to make a living... heck, I think it's kind of rude to shove my nose into another person's wallet and tell him he is demanding too much for his animals... I can't put a price-tag on a person's investment of time and money years before there's any outcome... the fact that I can't or am unwilling to buy a morph because the price is steep doesn't make the breeder evil... just as I don't have the money to buy a BMW doesn't make BMW evil either.

If availability is low, and the animal is rare, the price is going to be high... the "holier than thou" routine usually drops the moment that the very same person gets his hands on some morphs.

The difference between a morph and a classic version of an animal is superficial- no one is being denied the joy of owning an animal. That extra touch of color and pattern had cost people allot of money, several years of work, and at times, the gamble fails completely.

Corns get to sexual maturity relatively quickly, the breeding process is a deal easier and less risky, and you get a very decent amount of offspring... this isn't the same for Boids, or even Hognoses.

Just like with any animal or product- you want to own an especially fine animal? with pedigree? one that will bring valuable offspring? you will probably have to pay a deal more. You wanna own a classic 'normal'? that's be very affordable.

So... I apologize, but I don't think that a demand that premium stock animals should be made available to just about anyone is fair.
Earning a living is not exactly cheap or easy anywhere, usually it's the large breeders who create "new" morphs or invest in highly desirable morphs... expecting them to continue doing so by selling their produced offspring at a fracture of what they paid is quite absurd and hypocritical.
 
I am not a fan off ball pythons, I love the one I have.. but that being said.. if I ever have the money to throw around I'd snatch myself up a high-med white pied ball. I LOVE pieds.
 
Where is all the fuss about people asking $75+ for normal bull snakes? I can go outside and catch the exact same thing!
 
You know you are right the amel corn to albino BP ratio is about 50 to 1 maybe a hundred to 1. But 20 years ago when there were only a couple Albino Balls how much where Amel Corns going for? It was still the price range you stated. If you count how many amel corns 20 years and how many Albino BP there are now that 50 to 1 ratio is now what 10 to 1 maybe it would be even. Just saying. Albino Burms also fetched a pretty penny many years ago. I bet you would not pay $500 for one now would you. Again you will say well they produce more and there are more out there. Same 20 years ago and now scenario I used could be said here. Again no one would pay $500 20 years ago for a baby Albino Burm. And I bet it will be another 10 years before you see a $100 price tag on a Albino BP.

Again all I am trying to say is a living creature should not be looked at as a investment. That is what BP breeders do to market their high end morphs "these would make a great investment and the money is well worth it". I have heard/read that speech so many times it sickens me. Do I want to make a living breeding corns of course I do. Even supplemental living would be nice. Do I hope anyone that is breeding on a medium scale or bigger make a live whatever it is they are breeding damn straight. I just feel at some point anyone should be able to enjoy their favorite morphs weather that be corns, BP, Leos or whatever. With corns it only takes a few years for that to happen. With BP's you are talking 10-20 years before something is in a more everyday market. I am not saying $50 bucks for some crazy morph, but under a thousand is reasonable. I am also not saying that these prices should drop tomorrow. No I can not justify someone buying a 40K snake as a "investment" and tell them "sorry once you get some babies you need to only charge $500. I just think (and my opinion) that it is mistreatment to our hobby to continue to charge a premium for a morph that has been around 5, 10 even 20 years.

I keep seeing the comparison and argument to this being expensive cars and inanimate objects. Again these are living creatures not some car. I just dont like the BP trend I guess. I dont see the big deal about them. A snake that is very short, fat, lazy, and a problem feeder whenever it feels like it (in my experience).

Again these are all my opinions and I dont see my mind being changed on them just as I dont see me changing anyone elses minds either. I guess pretty much the moral is you do your thing and I will do mine. To each his/her own.
 
Josh everyone is entitled to an opinion, that's okay. I see what you are trying to say but, Oren's post outlines really well why things are the way they are.

Comparing albino corns to albino ball pythons is not a good comparison. Corns are prolific breeders compared to balls. I sincerely doubt an albino ball will every drop below $250 on a bad day. You are talking about hitting a recessive gene in a tiny clutch.

I refuse to drop my prices just so "anyone can own one," I will change my prices based on the main market price and that is all. It's not a holier than thou attitude, it's I spent time and care on these animals and hit in the odds in a tiny clutch.

The day you hit a 1 in 32 odds snake in a 5 egg clutch you will be over the moon. I bet my bottom dollar you would want premium for that animal, if not, well then that's your choice.

However, I don't mind helping other breeders out. Heck I'm bring het albinos to Daytona for the raffle. There is a good chance I'll be bringing some pastels too. It's just that I'm not going to give a 4 gene male away for dirt cheap, no one will. They worked hard to hit those odds, and darn it, it's worth the price tag in the end.
 
BloodyBaroness said:
How is paying $3,000 for this: Anaconda Het Hypo

Better than paying $3,000 for this: Enchi Bee

Most base ball python morph prices AND hognose morph prices are EXACTLY the same.

Not everything is 40K, those are rare and certainly not the norm.
Click to expand...

How is your example hog better than your BP example? Well, normally I would have left this one alone, my dear, but you used a spider based morph in your example. So how is the hog better, you ask? Well, the hog doesn't spin. I win.

Now, as to what the market can bear, which is what you all keep saying, if the market could really bear a 17K - 40K snake, more than a hundred people would be able to afford them. (let's that list of 100 people, smarty pants). The market-people who buy balls- is in the hundreds of thousands. And I know those hundreds of thousands of people don't have that kind of cash laying around. Not in this economy. Which is why the list of owners is so short, <1%, of people who actually keep them [the highest end morphs].
 
Nate, I love you I really do...

The comparison is price only, I don't care what morph they were, I did not even pay attention. :p

Not all balls are 40k. Most are in the $100 to $2,000 range. I think 40k is a poor example since the percentage that are that price is less than 1%. The reason there are so few 17k-40k is because, well, there are so few of them exist. It's bloody hard to hit a 1 in 32 chance in a clutch of 6 eggs. The breeders with most snakes run the best odds to hit based totally on law of averages.

It's just like any other luxury expense in this world. If 1% can afford it, good for them, go nuts. I'll be happy with what I can afford. I don't expect to be able to buy everything. That's not how life works with anything.
 
Nate I aasure you that more than 100 people have Banana's/Coral Glows......

If you breed Balls and have a decent sized collection of 50 medium end Balls, you can make enough in a season to afford a 12,000-17,000 Coral Glow.
 
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