To breed or not to breed/projects/thoughts blah blah

[bmm]

Hi!

This is just a rambling post really....but i'd like some discussion or ideas....

I was feeding snakes and thinking about this upcoming cornsnake season. It will be my first attempt at breeding, although I have kept corns and other snakes for quite some time. I was thinking about the babies I will (hopefully) have and realized I really don't like the idea of breeding for no reason...I mean....personally of course.....I don't want to breed my snakes just to make countless more "pets" for someone else, undoubtedly a few "pets" for people who won't care for them...and I just don't like the idea of making more animals for no reason.

I personally don't have any goals when it comes to morphs...so my breeding would be just that, making more "pets" and of course a few keepers of my own. But I am dying to have a "project" of some sort with the corns, and I am certainly interested in breeding, although like I mentioned I don't want to do it just because I can if you know what I mean. I am not interested in genetics, so thats out, and frankly unless you have some mega bucks...its been done before ....but are there other areas that are yet to be explored? Unfortunatly, I can't think of any for myself. So I am really debating my own personal reasons for breeding my corns this upcoming year.

Does anyone else ever feel this way?

bmm

 

[Iris]

Kind of...

This spring/summer will be the first time breeding my striped male (to an anery het stripe het hypo het other things that I don't know).
I think it's so exciting to see eggs hatching and the little babies of different morphs and just everything about it, but I wouldn't want to have a bunch of baby corns that I don't know what to do with. Luckily all the babies (if any hatch) are spoken for (to extremely responsible people) out of this mating, otherwise I wouldn't be planning to do it.
But it sometimes seems like some people are too eager to rush into breeding for the "fun" of it without thinking of the consequences.
I don't know...this is also a rambling post. It's been a long day. ::yawns::

 

[bmm]

yeah

I mean I am prepared for finding homes and feeding and caring for them all. Its just a conflict of what my reasons are. I just personally don't feel right just doing it without getting some good out of it, I dont want to create animals to create kinda although the thought of eggs and hatchlings drives me NUTS with anticipation. I thought of even using the clutches to do some sort of experiments even? Nothing crazy but things like how some might do on just live pinks, and how the other half does on frozen thawed...just crap like that nothing serious and it wouldn't be a creditable experiment except for my own purposes and experience. I dunno more rambling.

bmm

 

[Gregg]

Yes, I've felt that way.

I want to breed so I can give my son a hands on lesson in science and in business. I have as an additional, personal motivation of possibly being able to get morphs which I feel are rediculously over-priced at present. I also feel that there is the possibility of my having a load of unwanted babies on my hands. Bringing a load of unwanted snake babies into this world is no different than over producing unwanted dogs, cats, or people. Of course, we could always go back to not breeding.

If I were up in Canada, and I were you, I would stay in close contact with Simon.

 

[Hope H]

Gregg

I really respect what you are doing with your son. A breeding project for a young boy will teach him much about life's lessons, business, commitments etc. in a fun and intresting way. It will be a time of his life that in 20 years he will look back on and smile. Good Luck...

 

[Gregg]

Thank you, Hope.

Anyone who has or has had a pre-teen knows that their wants can get a little tiring after a while. My son is always wanting game cards (Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and such), game platforms, like GameBoy (and Advanced), Game Cube, and Playstation II, and the games and memory cards that go with these things. When he's a teenager, it's only going to get worse. So, as his daddy, it's my job to teach him how to fish, not to feed him fish whenever he's hungry--to borrow an old metaphor.

A couple of local pet shops have agreed to take some of our babies when we have them. Once that happens, he'll begin to see
some of things that working and running a business can provide. I told him that he'll have to give his mother and I half of what he makes to pay us back for the monetary investment that we've made in starting this business.

Also, as his daddy, I feel that it is my role to teach him about sex and being responsible when it comes to sex--the birds and the bees, if you will. Snakes are a lot more fun than say, fruit flies, in teaching genetics, and why animals and people look the way they do.

Right or wrong, I think the best way to teach him sexual responsibility is through an academic approach. I have always used the correct terms for body part in my discussing things with him and in answering his questions. I've never dodged a question either, nor have I used some cute substitute word. Using snakes is a subtle way of showing him that sex happens with all life forms, in one way or another, including his mom and dad, and that one day he too will feel the need to reproduce. Of course, once the concept of physical closeness sinks in, it will be my job to show him how to reign in his sexual race horse without being ashamed of it, while his mother will have to teach him how to interact with a lady. That part, I'm still trying to learn myself. I don't think I'll ever understand The Female.

Once he becomes the perfect gentleman, that will be when we can pop open a beer and pop in a porn film--just kidding.

It will be a time of his life that in 20 years he will look back on and smile.

I hope.

 

[Susan]

A suggestion...

Since you seem interested in the"experimentation" area, but don't have any ideas, why don't you try a nearby university/college and see if their science department and/or students would be interested in donated corn hatchlings for experimentation? You could ask to be kept informed about any projects and to make sure that the snakes are not cruelly abused.
Who knows, your snakes could lead to the cure of some dreadful disease!

 

[bmm]

That's a nice

Suggestion.... Thanks Susan!

bmm

 

[Brig]

I feel this way too...

Our amel and normal corns are crazy about each other, if you know what I mean. Whenever they are out together, i.e. for cage cleaning, I have to keep them apart or the male goes chasing the female and I've had to stop them from mating a couple of times!
They did this yesterday!!! I didn't think they'd be interested in December, but my little boy even had his hemipenes at the ready!!!

I really want to let them go the way nature and instinct intended, but my dilemma is the same as yours. While I know that we're capable of physically looking after babies, we can't keep them all, and I don't like the idea of just creating babies for no real reason. Our local snake shop will probably take (and easily sell) all we produce, but I won't know where they've gone, and how they're doing.

I don't know what the survival rate of babies generally is. I'm probably completely wrong, but I feel as though if I kept them all, I could probably keep them all alive and well (naive, I know - I've never had to deal with problem feeders, illnesses, birth defects, etc, etc, etc, so what do I know!), where as if they all go to other people, maybe people who just wander past and think a snake's a good idea without ever learning about it (as we hear so often), most of them won't survive, or have a comfortable life, and it will be my fault!

I've always just thought about the big breeders and that they just deal with this - they can't possibly think any other way, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do what they do, but I didn't think that other people would feel like me. It's sort of comforting to know, even though no real answer can come out of it, I suppose.

Thanks for the opportunity to ramble, sorry it's a long one.

Happy new year to you all,
Brig.

 

[bmm]

yes

I think I feel that way because of the fact that their are big breeders....

Since they are already producing a ton of hatchlings in North America each year does this hobby really need me, a small time breeder of normal, anery, amel and snow corns? Is it right to just keep pumping them out and out and out just because I can?

It would be a different story for me personally if I had started my collection with a crap load of money and I could be producing some really exciting things but the fact it will be just your average corns makes me feel that I shoulnd't breed them just to breed and end up with a whole clutch going to a bunch of teenagers or jerk adults who end up taking terrible care of them. I dunno maybe that feeling is wrong but my worst fear would be cornsnakes turning out to be the equivelent of iguanas in 10 years. Although I don't think this would happen as iguanas are a totally different story, but I mean imagine if every single keeper bred his corns! hahaha anyways more thoughts.

bmm

 

[Brig]

Lots of thoughts in my head now...

... I suppose moderation is the answer, isn't it?

The thing we are worried about is not so much to do with producing the snakes, but more about the way some people (I don't know what percentage) treat their animals, as a disposable item, either because they're too stupid to understand its needs, or because they don't really care.

And even with all the education and awareness in the world, we aren't going to solve that one in a hurry.

So my conclusion is that I think I will breed one clutch next season, and see what happens. I really want to go through this experience. I totally get what Gregg intends to do, to educate his son, but in my case it's educating myself - I've never had any close-up experience of any animal breeding, and I confess I'm fascinated.
I won't be breeding every female, every year. I don't think the world needs millions more corn-snakes. Even here in England, there are a fair number of breeders, not on the scale of Rich and co., but there isn't usually a shortage of snakes to buy if you know where to look (bit short on lavenders, though... )

I take your point, bmm, about breeding the more rare morphs - I guess most of the purchasers will be more informed and place a higher value on the animal than the impulse buy, cheap 'normal' . Until now, I hadn't even thought about it, believe it or not! My first corn was a normal, and I chose him amongst a rack of many different morphs, price didn't really matter to me at that time, and I could have bought any of them. I chose him because he looked up at me, ravenously scoffed a pinky, climbed out of his little tub and said 'I want to come home with you...!" OK, so I'm a bit mad, but anyway...

The point is, it was about the connection with the animal, not 'oooh that's a pretty one' (although the two things can co-exist, as my growing collection shows!).

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, anyway,


Brig.

 

[Darin Chappell]

This may be nothing more than rationalization on my part, but let me tell you what I do.

To start, I expect to produce about 100-150 babies this coming spring. That's a lot for me! I will sell a HUGE percentage of them on the internet to those who are looking for specific morphs (especially bloodreds and their variations), but some of them will be sold to individuals at our local breeders' expo (put on by the local Herp Society). A small percentage of them will be sold to the local pet store chain.

Now, I agree with the idea that too many people are buying corns as though they are disposable pets. However, rather than running away from the pet buyers because SOME are bad owners (not saying that any of you are doing this), I have tried to make a difference in my area, teaching them ALL to be BETTER owners.

I provide information and training to the reptile people in the stores to which I sell my animals. I make unannouced visits to the stores, looking for good things and bad, and make reports back to the main office. I am always willing to have the stores use my number or give it out to those who have bought my snakes through the stores. I will answer my phone at nearly anytime and talk about snakes until your phone bill costs more than you can stand. I do my dead-level best to make sure that I check up on snakes that I've sold to see if they're doing well and their owners are happy with their purchases. I absolutely LOVE getting picture of the "grandkids" when they hatch! I am writing an article for the local herp newsletter, detailing cornsnake genetics to interest people in their charges on a level deeper than "Oh, dude . . .cool colors!" I take my animals on show-and-tell trips to the local zoo to teach kids about the great animals we know and love.

What I'm saying is that, while I cannot guarantee you that everyone of my animals is being treated correctly, I CAN guarantee that I did everything I could to make sure they were given every opportunity to be so treated. I also am doing everything I can to educate the public (read that as future customer base) AND petstore personnel (read that as future employee pool).

I completely understand what you all are saying about not producing animals that will simply be thrown away, so to speak. However, I would suggest that you try to make ways for your animals to be enjoyed on a local level, and teach your community to be more accepting, understanding, and appreciative of the animals along the way. Then, not only will you have good homes for your babies, but you'll also have the satisfaction of knowing that you made a little bit of difference in your own little corner of the world.

Just something to think about --

 

[vanderkm]

Darin,

Really appreciate your approach and that you would share it here. A big part of wanting to breed cornsnakes for me is to introduce others to the joy of such an ideal reptile pet. That includes sharing knowledge about them and promoting them to the general public who might never consider owning one and all the advantages they have as a pet species. We were introduced to snakes as pets rather late in life and I would give anything to have known more about them and had them when I was a child, so hope to bring that to more people out there.

Thanks for setting such a good example.


Mary v.

 

[bmm]

yes

I like all your points.

I don't really so much worry about the care aspect of the babies (well i do but thats not my main problem). My main thoughts are the babies themselves.....why produce more and more and more and more. Even if I could find 100% perfect owners for all....why keep making more? I have nothing against anyone breeding at all! These are just thoughts for myself.

But yes thanks for sharing your viewpoints everyone!

bmm

 

[Brig]

Darin, you've inspired me!!!

I just have so little spare time at the moment, but a big part of my job is training people, which I love, and the idea of teaching people about snakes is really appealing!

I'm going to put some careful thought into whether I could go round local schools and do talks. I, too, can talk the hind leg off a donkey when it comes to my snakes - not because I'm an expert (far, far from it ) but because I'm enthusiastic and can't shut up!

I can tell you, most people here in Sheffield will not have had much experience of snakes!!! It's not like we have many in the wild, round here.

I think educating would be enormously rewarding!

Thanks for my, oh, 47th New Year's resolution...!

Not got much to do with breed as such, but just had to write!

Brig.

 

[sphinx]

Happy new year to you all!!

i have to say that darin its nice to see someone who breeds on mass is not just thinking about the money, education is the best thing for our hobby/business keep up the good work!!!!

 

[PSYCOSNAKEMOM]

Interesting thoughts going on here~~~~:~

You guys seem to be really thinking though this possible dilemma. The only time that we were considering breeding was if Spencer enrolled in an agricultural school he would have to do a four year project and the cornsnake breeding (one time) would have fit the requirements, gentics, selling, all the items that you listed would have been part of the package to have a completed successful project. He ended up going to his first choice magnet school so no project. I'm thinking of having the snakes spade/neutered if they become stressed at breeding times. Like bmm, the idea and all the struggles with Ethics and the work and the cost. My thought is leave it to the professionals. I think it would be "fun" to have babies and stuff but if you're really thinking it though like you guys are then it's a very complicated and serious decision.

Maybe I'm thinking this way because I once thought that it would be fun and I could make some money breeding Himalayan cats. I did some research, bought a pair (BIG BUCKS) and it was down hill every since, cost in time and money and stress (vet bills, manic breeding cats, cleaning and feeding, worring, picky and complaining customers, the list goes on) Well I still have my little sweetheart cats but they are both FIXED now and lesson learned, it's just not for everyone. Good luck for those brave hearts that are willing to try and have a well thought out plan, I admire you for your consciences effort and remember I'm the one who will want to buy! Not breed! Did someone mention Blooreds????? Sam ~~~~~~~:~

 

[Iris]

You can spay/neuter corns? I didn't know that was possible

 

[PSYCOSNAKEMOM]

Hi Iris

Did you notice that I spelled Bloodreds wrong...I have to stop staying up so late at night on the forum.

I didn't know that myself but Someone on the forum (sorry I forgot who the contact was) shared that it's a pretty easy procedure. It's probably in health related issues, way back......
I haven't talked with my vet about it yet but if I get any news I'll share. Sam ~~~~~~~~~:~

 

[bmm]

I

Knew that spaying and neutering corns is possible as well as other snakes but why for any reason would anyone put a snake throug this *very* serious procedure unless he would die or serious health issue otherwise without it? It could be a HUGE risk! And I would hope any vet that recommends fixing a snake for no reason other than to do it would be seriously second guessed and I would go to another vet.

Honestly I have never read, nor heard of any reputable person doing this to a snake for a reason that is not health related. Snakes don't really "go through" anything during breeding season that they need to be relieved of, even if they never mate. No one has written any evidence scientifically to suggest that a non mating captive snake should be spayed.

In fact putting a reptile under for surgery is one of the largests risks a reptile can be put through and many die. And to do this because they might get "cranky" because they have no mate is not a good reason. Snakes have lived 30 years + in captive collections all over the world without being "fixed"

bmm