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Thanx for that info Mitchell! VERY informative and thought provoking. I will be sure to keep this in mind when feeding. I'll be the first to admit to giving them the extra f/t here and there but my desire to see them grow quickly does not outway having healthy animals.
So are you against keeping snakes in racks/tubs? Also what do you think of the munson plan?
 
King, for almost a decade my undergraduate and graduate research used the California mountain kingsnake as a study organism. One of my three research areas revolved around heritability of phenotypic characteristics; which in turn required large numbers of breeders. Like all graduate research, time is limited, so I had no choice but to power-feed the young and the adults.

Over the course of the study, multiple trends began to reveal themselves:

1. Wild-caught snakes during the first year of breeding directly following their year of capture never egg-bound and had small clutches (2-6).
2. With each additional year breeding within our lab clutch size increased, but so did egg retention.
3. Larger females (i.e., fatter ones) tended to retain eggs at a higher rate.

Lastly, whenever any individual would die in our lab a subsequent necropsy was performed. Wild-caught snakes had very little fat in their body cavities, while some long-term captives and most captive-born stock had body cavities filled with fat (from the beginning of the body cavity to their cloaca). We even had several females die during brumation because their fat began to go necrotic, leading to sepsis and death (UC vet diagnosis).

What we determined was that the captive animals were not being given a variable diet, but instead were being maintained completely on rodents. The mice we fed our snakes were high in fat and much lower in calcium than the natural diet of the mountain king that included a high number of low-fat lizards. The issue with introducing lizards as a dietary supplement into our breeding colony was the high probability of introducing pathogens into our colony. Freezing only kills a small majority of pathogens, so we felt that the risk was much greater than the reward (yes, we sacrificed the long-term health of the animal for the short term reward of more fecund females).

Mountain kings aren't corn snakes, but their highly similar. Both species are opportunistic with respect to prey, and both are active foragers. Many of my non-feeder hatchling corns (in fact almost 100%) will take a pinky that has been scented with a western fence lizard. That shows me that they have a major predisposition for lizards when young. I'm sure that prey preferences change in the wild as corns mature (from lizard to rodent), but I'm also positive that most adult corns won't pass up a lizard meal as an adult if the opportunity arises.

So, long story short, power-feeding high-fat food items like our captive-reared mice can only lead to a shorter life for our breeders. Our corns will rapidly build up fat within their bodies because of their diet, but also because almost all the enclosures we keep them in are too small for them to get adequate exercise; meaning atrophy of muscle and an accumulation of more fat. Corn snakes are long, thin snakes in the wild, with very few ever reaching the gargantuan proportions we see in our captive collections. Only adult snakes that have been around for a long time begin to really reach the girth that our captive snakes do. Furthermore, even though we can breed snakes at two years, they probably don't ever become reproductive until their fourth year in the wild (especially females). Evidence from our mtn king study from our study sites show that most mtn kings don't lay their first clutches until their fifth to sixth year of life!

Seeing that keeping corns is purely a hobby to me, I have no desire to sacrifice the health of my animals for the short-term gain of more fecund, quicker clutches earlier in life. All of my snakes are kept thin (not starving or rail-thin, but thin) and are fed to ensure that breeding in females takes place realistically in their fourth year. Some breed in their third year, but I try not to have that happen.

Next time you have an adult corn pass on you that you've power-fed, do a quick and informal necropsy on it. I guarantee you you'll find a high amount of fat within the body cavity; a condition that a wild corn of that age wouldn't have. The few that have passed on me that I've necropsied have all been like that. Some even had their hearts completely surrounded by fat, with many of the livers appearing to consist of more fat than functional liver tissue.

Oh well, you asked! Haha.
Thank you for that, Mitch!
It's not just Cornsnakes, it is other species as well.
A friend of mine recently lost an amazing Jungle Carpet Python male, that was not that old, just up and died.
He did his own necropsy and discovered the snake was full of fat.
He did not grow this snake up, someone else had, but it was a reminder of why not to power feed. It is just as harmful as what some call "maintenance feeding", and barely feeding enough to keep it alive. Some breeders use the term, but do not borderline starve the animals, so I'm not against the term itself, but rather some breeders using that term but hardly feed the animals.
 
Thanx for that info Mitchell! VERY informative and thought provoking. I will be sure to keep this in mind when feeding. I'll be the first to admit to giving them the extra f/t here and there but my desire to see them grow quickly does not outway having healthy animals.
So are you against keeping snakes in racks/tubs? Also what do you think of the munson plan?

Funny, I'd never heard of the Munson Plan...but after looking it over, that's exactly how I feed my corns. My adult males get fed every two weeks, while all others including non-reproductive females are fed once a week. Reproductive females before and after egg-laying get fed every five days.

As for keeping them in racks; all of my snakes are kept in racks! It's the only way you can keep 500+ snakes.
 
King, for almost a decade my undergraduate and graduate research used the California mountain kingsnake as a study organism. One of my three research areas revolved around heritability of phenotypic characteristics; which in turn required large numbers of breeders. Like all graduate research, time is limited, so I had no choice but to power-feed the young and the adults.

Over the course of the study, multiple trends began to reveal themselves:

1. Wild-caught snakes during the first year of breeding directly following their year of capture never egg-bound and had small clutches (2-6).
2. With each additional year breeding within our lab clutch size increased, but so did egg retention.
3. Larger females (i.e., fatter ones) tended to retain eggs at a higher rate.

Lastly, whenever any individual would die in our lab a subsequent necropsy was performed. Wild-caught snakes had very little fat in their body cavities, while some long-term captives and most captive-born stock had body cavities filled with fat (from the beginning of the body cavity to their cloaca). We even had several females die during brumation because their fat began to go necrotic, leading to sepsis and death (UC vet diagnosis).

What we determined was that the captive animals were not being given a variable diet, but instead were being maintained completely on rodents. The mice we fed our snakes were high in fat and much lower in calcium than the natural diet of the mountain king that included a high number of low-fat lizards. The issue with introducing lizards as a dietary supplement into our breeding colony was the high probability of introducing pathogens into our colony. Freezing only kills a small majority of pathogens, so we felt that the risk was much greater than the reward (yes, we sacrificed the long-term health of the animal for the short term reward of more fecund females).

Mountain kings aren't corn snakes, but their highly similar. Both species are opportunistic with respect to prey, and both are active foragers. Many of my non-feeder hatchling corns (in fact almost 100%) will take a pinky that has been scented with a western fence lizard. That shows me that they have a major predisposition for lizards when young. I'm sure that prey preferences change in the wild as corns mature (from lizard to rodent), but I'm also positive that most adult corns won't pass up a lizard meal as an adult if the opportunity arises.

So, long story short, power-feeding high-fat food items like our captive-reared mice can only lead to a shorter life for our breeders. Our corns will rapidly build up fat within their bodies because of their diet, but also because almost all the enclosures we keep them in are too small for them to get adequate exercise; meaning atrophy of muscle and an accumulation of more fat. Corn snakes are long, thin snakes in the wild, with very few ever reaching the gargantuan proportions we see in our captive collections. Only adult snakes that have been around for a long time begin to really reach the girth that our captive snakes do. Furthermore, even though we can breed snakes at two years, they probably don't ever become reproductive until their fourth year in the wild (especially females). Evidence from our mtn king study from our study sites show that most mtn kings don't lay their first clutches until their fifth to sixth year of life!

Seeing that keeping corns is purely a hobby to me, I have no desire to sacrifice the health of my animals for the short-term gain of more fecund, quicker clutches earlier in life. All of my snakes are kept thin (not starving or rail-thin, but thin) and are fed to ensure that breeding in females takes place realistically in their fourth year. Some breed in their third year, but I try not to have that happen.

Next time you have an adult corn pass on you that you've power-fed, do a quick and informal necropsy on it. I guarantee you you'll find a high amount of fat within the body cavity; a condition that a wild corn of that age wouldn't have. The few that have passed on me that I've necropsied have all been like that. Some even had their hearts completely surrounded by fat, with many of the livers appearing to consist of more fat than functional liver tissue.

Oh well, you asked! Haha.

Mitch,
GREAT study and also GREAT write up !!!

Question: in the study with the Mountain Kings that had high fat content, did any of them develope visual fat deposits, especially around the vent area (hips) ???

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Mitch,
GREAT study and also GREAT write up !!!

Question: in the study with the Mountain Kings that had high fat content, did any of them develope visual fat deposits, especially around the vent area (hips) ???

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Walt, some showed 'hips', but most did not. It didn't appear that there was any direct correlation between the presence of hips and the amount of fat deposits within the body cavity (however, I didn't run any stats to prove otherwise). It does seem though that corns produce 'hips' at a much higher frequency than mtn kings, and it makes me wonder if they place and retain fat at a higher frequency as well.
 
On a related note, I work with mice and have to dissect females to harvest their embryos. As adult females get older, it is unreal how much fat develops in their body cavity. As morbid as it is, I'm tempted to open up one of my frozen adult feeder mice to see how they compare....
 
(I can't imagine the feeding corns super squishy adult mice is optimal. The female mice don't look overtly "fat" either)
 
Walt, some showed 'hips', but most did not. It didn't appear that there was any direct correlation between the presence of hips and the amount of fat deposits within the body cavity (however, I didn't run any stats to prove otherwise). It does seem though that corns produce 'hips' at a much higher frequency than mtn kings, and it makes me wonder if they place and retain fat at a higher frequency as well.

Gottcha.
I was curious because years ago, when I bred other speices (King Snakes and Milk Snakes) I found certain ones would develope hips when all of them were getting fed the same thing, but it seemed Publan Milks were at the top of the list.

I have recently started (a couple years ago) supplimenting my feeders with Calcium, Mineral and Vitamin powders and noticed that some of my females developing hips, however not all of them and again all on the same feeding schedual and size of meals.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Walt, some showed 'hips', but most did not. It didn't appear that there was any direct correlation between the presence of hips and the amount of fat deposits within the body cavity (however, I didn't run any stats to prove otherwise). It does seem though that corns produce 'hips' at a much higher frequency than mtn kings, and it makes me wonder if they place and retain fat at a higher frequency as well.

I think that what many people now consider "healthy" is actually overweight, in a number of snake species.

I think the "long and lean" approach is healthiest, and while I do model my feeding after the Munson Plan, (weight wise of feeders) my schedule is often more stretched out.
It will take longer for some of my animals to reach breeding size than most, (some of mine grow fast even on the sporatic schedule) I'd rather have healthy animals that be quicker to produce babies.

Thank you for bringing this up! I think it is a very important topic! :)
 
Funny, I'd never heard of the Munson Plan...but after looking it over, that's exactly how I feed my corns. My adult males get fed every two weeks, while all others including non-reproductive females are fed once a week. Reproductive females before and after egg-laying get fed every five days.

As for keeping them in racks; all of my snakes are kept in racks! It's the only way you can keep 500+ snakes.

ONLY 500+ snakes Mitch? SMH! I'm dissapointed! Here I am thinking you were a SERIOUS breeder! :p
 
Mitch,

Thanks for posting your experiences with your research on Cal Mtn kings (which seems like a pretty cool experience by the way.) I am curious what you and others on the board consider "power feeding" if it is not the Munson Plan. Your's and others comments in this post seem to suggest that the Munson Plan is not power feeding, but I had always understood that was what it was. Thanks.
 
Mitch,

Thanks for posting your experiences with your research on Cal Mtn kings (which seems like a pretty cool experience by the way.) I am curious what you and others on the board consider "power feeding" if it is not the Munson Plan. Your's and others comments in this post seem to suggest that the Munson Plan is not power feeding, but I had always understood that was what it was. Thanks.

Power feeding is feeding every three to four days, and at times multiple food items. The Munson Plan is definitely not power feeding.
 
GRAPHIC images below

Okay, so here's a few photos from a surgery on a black-and-white CA mtn king (probably the rarest variant around right now). She became septic during brumation because of necrotic fat within her body cavity. The operation was slightly exploratory, and was subsequently ended well before most of the fat could be removed because of the surreal amount of fat that filler her body cavity. The snake later died from sepsis a few days later (even after administration of antibiotics and such). We didn't have much hope for her in the beginning simply because of how bad of shape she was in when I checked on her in brumation.





Pics below.


















A little further....









for the squeamish (they're really not bad at all, but you never know with some...)




Here's a pic of the first incision and entry point.
beginsurgery_zpsd22d81f2.jpg


Here's all the fat that was removed just from that one small segment. There were small capillaries running through all of it. The necrotic fat was further up the body cavity. So much fat...
bodyfat_zps4deedd3d.jpg


Here's the fat collected so they could analyze it at a later date.
bowloffat_zps48bbf3dc.jpg



How a body digests and accumulates fats is surely different for every organism. As in humans, some can become incredibly obese by eating the same foods that barely affects another person. However, for the most part, if you regularly consume fatty foods, then that fat will accumulate within the body. I have no doubt that power feeding will almost always lead to unhealthy snakes filled with fat. The photos above demonstrate the harm that can come from power feeding; harm we're unable to see within the bodies of our snakes.
 
Very interesting Mitch for sure.

However, appareatly snakes that are not "power" fed can also develope fat deposits as well and it makles me wonder how some do and some don't ??

I mean my feeding schedual it pretty much the same as yours.....adult males fed every 14 days and all breeding adult females and non-breeding (hatchling & yearling) snakes one appropriate sized food item every 7 days and some of my adult females have developed hips.

Do you think this could be the result of one of the supplimental powders I give on their food items ???
I give a small amount (dust) of mineral, vitamin & calcium suppliments.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Thanx for taking the time to post all this Mitch! Takes me back to when we were dissecting fetal pigs in biology class. Good times! lol :D
 
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