Where do they all go?

[El Guapo]

Let me apologise if the has been discused already, I couldn't find much in search.

I've often wondered what happens to all the snake that are captive bred. Thousands of Corns are being produced every year and it would seem that most find homes, but what kind of homes are they finding and what kind of life can we expect them to enjoy. I try not to think about it too much because it depresses me to think it's probible most of these animal endure unhealthy living conditions, are under fed, lead very short lives, heck, they probably live in a dark corner of some kids room with a lamp shining on halve their enclosure with a hot rock! And it's the corns I feel the worst for because their so often recommended as a beginners snake, they're becoming unbelievably available and affordable, and so many are being are being bred for the development of their traits.
I believe sites like this one really help to educate people and I'm not putting down any breeders, the two corns I have are for breeding purposes, it's long term project I've been planing for over a year now.Unfortunately I also believe most owners do not have their snakes well being as high on their priority list as those that frequent this site do. Any who, what do you think? :awcrap:

 

[jazzgeek]

Any who, what do you think?

I think those who post the same question multiple times in one forum are less responsible than they would lead us to believe.

regards,
jazz

 

[rushrulz]

Heck, some of them don't even have it too good before they're sold. Not when some moron at Petco is putting minnows in the snake's water bowl. He's doomed before he started.

 

[El Guapo]

I think those who post the same question multiple times in one forum are less responsible than they would lead us to believe.

regards,
jazz

I hit tab and then lost where I was then something happend happend, I'm still new to computers believe it or not

or maybe I'm just a monkey in a man suit :crazy02:

 

[El Guapo]

Heck, some of them don't even have it too good before they're sold. Not when some moron at Petco is putting minnows in the snake's water bowl. He's doomed before he started.

HEY! I thought they fed em crickets! Man I feel horrible for writing that it really is sad.

 

[jazzgeek]

I hit tab and then lost where I was then something happend happend, I'm still new to computers believe it or not

or maybe I'm just a monkey in a man suit :crazy02:

Well, we're all monkeys with car keys, as it were.

I'll disregard that the original posts from each thread are about a half hour apart and cut ya some slack.

Anyhow, the stats I found from the BS-CACA (Breeders Society - Cornsnakes And Colubrids America) are as follows:

68.3 % - sold in the pet trade
17.5 % - slugs/kinks/"unhealthy" specimens
7.7 % - held back for future breeding projects
6.5 % - used in Satanic sacrificial rituals

Hope this helps.

regards,
jazz

 

[Plissken]

The same can be said of any animal... and to be honest there are probably far greater numbers of fish and cute fluffy hamsters being sold to irresponsible homes than there are snakes.

Sites like this are in this instance totally irrelevant as far as educating the public goes... pets are going to be mistreated regardless of how many great sites and books there are out there, because the fact of the matter is that people just don't care. If they were going to put effort in to caring for the animal beforehand, they'd have researched BEFORE they bought the animal, and there wouldn't be all these snakes sitting in cold tanks and whathaveyou.

You can take a bad owner to a website but you can't make him read.

 

[El Guapo]

Thank you for exonerating me Mr. Jazz sir. I know your opinions run deep


Back to the tread at hand, so 7.7 %,could for the most part, be considered to end up well taken of. And of the 68.3% that end up in the pet trade I think it would be safe to say 50-75% live neglected lives, of course that is not statistic or fact. What, in your humble opinion, kind of numbers do you think are realistic? :spinner:

 

[El Guapo]

The same can be said of any animal... and to be honest there are probably far greater numbers of fish and cute fluffy hamsters being sold to irresponsible homes than there are snakes.

Yes, but snakes have a special place in our hearts, besides shave a hamster and you just have another rat to feed a snake :grin01:

You can take a bad owner to a website but you can't make him read.

Wiser words are seldom spoken(typed)

 

[El Guapo]

Plissken, sorry for inserting into the quote I'm still learning :awcrap:

 

[Hypancistrus]

Sold in the pet trade is different than sold to a pet store. Most breeders I have spoken with go to great lengths to NOT sell hatchlings to the average pet store if it can be avoided. As such, I will never buy a snake from a pet store, because I know it's the last place a good breeder would sell a snake to. So who sells their snakes to pet stores then?? All the "other" breeders, the ones who don't really care where their snakes end up.

Call me sentimental and foolish- but I think if a breeder cares about his or her hatchlings, that care will extend to me, the buyer, and it has worked so far.

In order to improve quality of life for all pet animals, including snakes, we need to improve access to educational programs. If everyone who owns a snake could take a snake to a school, day care, or summer camp, or even just stop to talk with a young kid carrying a wild caught hatchling at the local pet store, then we can reach people, one at a time. It's the principle we teachers live by- I can't help every student I see, but if I help one... or five... or ten or twenty, then the world is a better place because of my efforts. And if everyone did this, then we might just see a global difference.

 

[Plissken]

As such, I will never buy a snake from a pet store, because I know it's the last place a good breeder would sell a snake to. So who sells their snakes to pet stores then?? All the "other" breeders, the ones who don't really care where their snakes end up.

That's a very broad statement to make. Not all pet-store breeders don't care about animals, and to have bred and successfully incubated and hatched snake eggs takes some care in itself. Besides, does it not depend on the petstore itself? Not all petshops are out to get animals, you know. I've been to some perfectly respectable and well-maintained petshops before. Both my snakes are from a petstore. Are you saying that petstore snakes are less worthy of homes than one from a private breeder? Being in a petshop doesn't mean the animal is not wellbred and healthy. True, snakes for a breeding project maybe not, but they can and do make wonderful pets.

And who is to say that buying from a breeder is foolproof? I could slap "snake breeder" on my adverts but that doesn't guarantee the health and quality of my livestock.

 

[Hypancistrus]

That's a very broad statement to make. Not all pet-store breeders don't care about animals.... Besides, does it not depend on the petstore itself? Not all petshops are out to get animals, you know. I've been to some perfectly respectable and well-maintained petshops before. Both my snakes are from a petstore.

I should have added "in my area" to that. I've yet to see a pet store in my area that keeps their snakes well. People in other areas have great success with their pet stores, especially reptile specialty stores.

Are you saying that petstore snakes are less worthy of homes than one from a private breeder?

In my area- yes. It is nothing personal against the snake. I could buy from a pet store, and nurse it back to health, and spend money at the vets clearing it of parasites and infections. But the pet store would then take the money I paid for the snake and use it to purchase another snake to fill its place, and that one might not be so lucky. And so I won't buy from them. Perhaps you are lucky and have stores that care for their herps- I have stores where the snakes are dehydrated, their water fouled, and they cohab them in small 5 gallon tanks.

In addition, the snakes at our pet stores are from entirely unknown heritage. How do I know what diseases they have been exposed to? How do I know whether they are truly captive bred (unless of course, they are a non-natural morph)? Is it worth the gamble of exposing my snake to a new one of unknown stock and history?? To me, it's not.

And who is to say that buying from a breeder is foolproof? I could slap "snake breeder" on my adverts but that doesn't guarantee the health and quality of my livestock.

Buying from a breeder isn't fool-proof, but it raises the chances of success if you chose your breeder carefully, in my opinion. I spent two months speaking with breeders, surfing websites, and gathering opinions from BOI before selecting WWE. I am confident that I have a good breeder, and so far, my faith has been rewarded.

If a person goes with the prettiest ad without researching the person, then no, their chances are probably not increased.

 

[Plissken]

In my area- yes. It is nothing personal against the snake. I could buy from a pet store, and nurse it back to health, and spend money at the vets clearing it of parasites and infections. But the pet store would then take the money I paid for the snake and use it to purchase another snake to fill its place, and that one might not be so lucky. And so I won't buy from them. Perhaps you are lucky and have stores that care for their herps- I have stores where the snakes are dehydrated, their water fouled, and they cohab them in small 5 gallon tanks.
.

I see where you are coming from... I just feel it's an unfair generalisation because not all reptile shops are horrible to their animals. Both my petstore snakes were quite healthy, even Connor who had been abused before going to the petshop. (Chester had mites, but I am not sure where they came from so I'm not placing the blame anywhere... I have never seen any sign of mites in that shop or any other animal there, and I used to work there.) Of course I am very careful to look for illnesses when I buy from a petshop but you can't ever be 100% sure even with a breeder buy. Breeder snakes could have internal diseases and parasites just as much as any petstore snake... if that breeder has ever walked in to a reptile shop, he may have introduced all manner of things in to his own snakes.

 

[Hypancistrus]

Breeder snakes could have internal diseases and parasites just as much as any petstore snake... if that breeder has ever walked in to a reptile shop, he may have introduced all manner of things in to his own snakes.

Still, to my mind, a breeder is willing to do things a pet store (in my area) would not. For instance, one breeder on here euthanized all of his collection when he found crypt in several individuals. I don't believe any of the pet stores in my area would 1) actually do that to protect their buyers, or 2) would know that their stock had crypt, because the stores I have worked with and been into don't do tests on deceased animals- they just toss them in the freezer and/or throw them out with the rest of their trash.

For that matter, none of the stores I have been into have employee handwashing policies. I have seen employees go from tank to tank, handling the animals and changing their papers without sanitizing their hands between tanks. You can spread disease really fast that way. The same is NOT true for the breeders I have spoke to and dealt with.

It's all a matter of opinion, but one needs to take these factors into account when deciding where to purchase their stock. I will guard my long snake and any future stock I purchase to the best of my ability. If there's any doubt over the source, I won't make the purchase. To me, any pet store in this area is too high of a risk for my taste, to say nothing of the ethics of buying from people who do not care for their animals in an acceptable fashion.

In your case, I am truly glad that the pet stores maintain their stock in a manner similar to most breeders. I have found that people in Europe seem to have better luck with pet stores, and I think perhaps your laws are more stringent. Noteworthy laws to protect pet store animals, especially reptiles, herps and other "non-cuddly" creatures, seem to not exist here.

 

[Plissken]

Still, to my mind, a breeder is willing to do things a pet store (in my area) would not./QUOTE]

Once again, that is entirely down to the individual pet shop / breeder.

I don't believe any of the pet stores in my area would 1) actually do that to protect their buyers, or 2) would know that their stock had crypt

I am not sure that even the very best of breeders could identify crypt before it is really out of hand. Correct me if I'm mistaken - I know only a limited ammount about crypto - but I am fairly sure it can take quite a long time to manifest in to visible symtpoms... by which time other snakes, including that nice safe breeder snake you (hypothetical you) just brought home, could have a silent disease.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you that you tend to know more what you're getting with a breeder... I'm just saying, don't assume that all breeders are great or that all petstore snakes are bad. I don't know, maybe it is just our different areas

 

[Plissken]

Oops... sorry about the messed up qoutes

 

[Hypancistrus]

I am fairly sure it can take quite a long time to manifest in to visible symtpoms... by which time other snakes, including that nice safe breeder snake you (hypothetical you) just brought home, could have a silent disease.

They can't... but if a number of snake died of mysterious causes, most breeders would look into it. The pet stores in my area would simply order more to replace those lost. I kid you not about the unsanitary conditions of these stores.

In all honesty... PetCo may be the best, and they're not all that great. Their snakes look okay, but they cohab them. Today, for instance, they had two 14-16" Ball Pythons in one smallish (18") tank, and the two were sitting on top of each other in one corner. Whether to avoid too much heat, or to get closer to heat, I don't know, but BP's are generally soliatary animals and do not relish being forced to live in close quarters. It's very stressful to them.

 

[Hypancistrus]

In all honesty... PetCo may be the best....

(Of the stores in my area!) Sorry!

 

[bitsy]

And of the 68.3% that end up in the pet trade I think it would be safe to say 50-75% live neglected lives

Unless you have any evidence to support this (which you state that you haven't), I'd say that's an entirely unsafe assumption. It's no different to saying that 50-75% of all pet dogs or cats live neglected lives. Would that be any more of an accurate guess?

Of course, I can't support my own stance with facts any more than you can, but if you're going by gut feel I'd say you're very wrong indeed.

This reminds me of a rather entertaining thread I read on a reptile forum, where an anti had deduced that all pet reptiles were poorly cared-for, as the majority of vets who responded to a survey, said that most of the reptiles they saw were sick.

Which is like asking doctors whether most people they see are ill, and deducing from their answer that the entire population of the country is sick.

I'm sorry, but this does seem to be something of a spurious debate, requiring people to answer an uninformed opinion, with slightly better informed guesswork.

Is there any value to this?