Who here has tried the BARF diet?

[Dreqqus]

Be honest, you though this thread was about bulimia.

Joking aside, I am speaking of the Biologically Appropriate Raw Food, or the Bones and Raw Food, diet for cats and dogs. I'm thinking about switching my cats over to it, since the nutrition in their dry food is appalling and expensive(Science Diet). Just looking for personal opinions and experiences.

Link to a page about the diet:
BARF Diet

 

[Nanci]

Janine does it.

Nanci

 

[GregF]

We're getting a rescue Corgi in five days and in preparation I've been researching raw food. There seems to be two raw foods camps: BARF (Billinghurst) and Raw Meaty Bones (Lonsdale). The RMB folks make a pretty convincing case that as carnivores, dogs and cats don't need vegetables or grains and that all of their nutritional needs can be met by eating a variety of whole animal parts (kind of like snakes). We're leaning strongly towards putting Keeper on the RMB diet as soon as he comes home. For more info, see http://www.rawmeatybones.com. There is also a very informative raw feeding Yahoo Group at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/. I'd be curious to know what you decide to do.

 

[Dreqqus]

Next time I go grocery shopping I intend to start my cats on the BARF diet. I'm hoping that it will help my roommates cat. Its a pure-bred something or other(White with peach colored ears, and tail rings, and pale blue eyes), that scratches himself silly. The vets can't find anything wrong with him, so we jokingly refer to him as an emo cat, always cutting himself. I was doing some reading around on the net, and found an article suggesting the Raw foods diets, that specifically cited skin allergies, as being prominent in pure bred cats being fed on grain diets. I'm hoping this will help him, and make my apparently healthy standard muttly(is ragamuffin the appropriate name for mix-breed cats?) cat healthier. I'll try and keep apprised of results.

 

[desertanimal]

I haven't. But I did cook for my 3 dogs back when I had a regular job (i.e., I ONLY worked 40 hours a week). It was more expensive for 3 dogs than dog food. Maybe it would be less expensive for cats, I don't know. But I had dogs that would eat two cups of dog food a day needing a lot more volume than that with real food.

Good luck with it if you try it. On real food, the dogs definitely had better coat condition, and they were already on pro-plan to start with, so it wasn't as if I was feeding them crappy food to start with or anything. But I couldn't keep up with the expense.

For the cat, you could consider trying a different food. I have a dog that I'm sure has food allergies, but if I keep him on the salmon and rice pro-plan he's fine. Switch him over to beef and his skin stays red all the time and he's itching like crazy. Switch him back and he's fine. Give him a rawhide chew and his mouth turns red, etc. When we were last in petsmart, we found that they were carrying a new brand of dog food called "Buffalo," I think. They had a fish and sweet potato food--those are two things that you won't find a dog who'll be allergic to them. Maybe they make cat food as well.

 

[Nastassja]

We're getting a rescue Corgi in five days and in preparation I've been researching raw food. There seems to be two raw foods camps: BARF (Billingsley) and Raw Meaty Bones (Lonsdale). The RMB folks make a pretty convincing case that as carnivores, dogs and cats don't need vegetables or grains and that all of their nutritional needs can be met by eating a variety of whole animal parts (kind of like snakes). We're leaning strongly towards putting Keeper on the RMB diet as soon as he comes home. For more info, see http://www.rawmeatybones.com. There is also a very informative raw feeding Yahoo Group at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/. I'd be curious to know what you decide to do.

Corgi!! <3

I've always wanted to do cooking for my little girl, but man.. I can barely cook for myself. Two years ago when I was doing extensive research on corgis and raising puppies before I bought Sofi, I stumbled across the most HORRIBLE information I'd EVER seen, and that was about how almost ALL dog food you see on the shelves at the store contained ingredients like rejected chicken parts (beaks and feet and guts and eggshells and rotten eggs) and rejected grain product (rotten/spoiled grains unfit for human consumption), and that most of the food your pet eats from brands like Purina and Kibbles 'n Bits is almost entirely grain... Even with mild knowledge of canines, you can recognize that it seems kind of odd that most of the country is out there feeding their dogs vegetables and grains when what a canine needs is, generally, meats.

I currently feed Sofi Nutro, it's the brand that was reccomended by the dog whisperer I went to for puppy training with Sofi. From what I read on the label, it's just about the best stuff I can get around my area short of cooking recipes for her myself with human-grade ingredients. After I graduate from college, cease being poor and have a steady high paying job (lololol plzzzz...), I'll probably work my way into those kinds of self-prepared dog food diets. Well... I really hope to, anyway.

 

[Nastassja]

Oh by the way.. Sofi in all her wondrous corgi glory says hello xD

 

[GregF]

The woman that we're getting our Corgi from (who is a breeder/trainer and used to coordinate Corgi rescue for N. California) told us that the three best feeding options are: 1) Raw food, 2) home-cooked food and 3) insanely expensive (like $40 a bag) specialty kibble. She feeds her Corgis raw, on what sounds like the BARF diet. As I said in my earlier post, we're probably going to feed the Raw Meaty Bones diet, which most closely replicates what dogs would eat in the wild. It has the added benefit of being the least expensive and time consuming. Here's a typical recipe: Remove chicken quarters from package; hand to dog.

If there's interest, I'll report on how he does, after we get him home on Friday. And here he is, Keeper the rescue Corgi:

 

[waldo]

Before you start the raw diet, you may want to check into the negative side of it. The main problem is when feeding raw bones, sure its natural but that doesn't = safe. Of course you could always feed boneless or buy the ground up bones/meat/fur stuff which is really convenient.

Also when feeding raw you will need vitamin and fish oil supplements since most raw diets aren't nutritionally balanced.

Personally I feel a good quality kibble is safer and healthier. I feed solid gold, its expensive but worth it. Another good brand is chicken soup for the pet lovers soul.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html

 

[tyflier]

There is alot of risk of parasitical infection and nutrional deficiency associated with raw diets. The argument "it's what they would eat in the wild" doesn't really hold much water for an animal that has been domesticated since the rise of Homo sapiens. These animals have been removed from the wild for hundreds of thousands of years, and as such, rely on us to provide them with safe, nutritional foods. Feeding them unprepared or "whole part" protein meat can lead to detrimental effects on the digestive tract.

For example--there are very few wild dogs that suffer from sensitive stomaches, diharrhea, and other intestinal difficulties. This is because their systems have developed a much higher content of natural digestive flora than a domesticated dog. At the very least, one should be extremely cautious when switching from a kibble diet to a raw diet. A diet of home-cooked meats and veggies would be better, I assume, than a diet of raw meats. But, IMO, a diet of specifically prepared doemsticated dog food is the best option, regardless of cost...

 

[GregF]

There is alot of risk of parasitical infection and nutrional deficiency associated with raw diets. The argument "it's what they would eat in the wild" doesn't really hold much water for an animal that has been domesticated since the rise of Homo sapiens. These animals have been removed from the wild for hundreds of thousands of years, and as such, rely on us to provide them with safe, nutritional foods. Feeding them unprepared or "whole part" protein meat can lead to detrimental effects on the digestive tract.

Tyflier, what do you base this statement on? I only ask because I've been doing a lot of reading recently and I haven't come across cases of parasitic infection. I have found cases where people assume that such infection sould occur but it's because "common sense" tells them so. The Raw Foodies explanation for why it doesn't happen is that a dog's digestive juices are 50% hydrochloric acid, an inhospitable environment for parasites, and their digestive tracts are very short. That's why a dog can eat week-old road kill without dying of botulism.

It's also worth noting that the practice of preparing food for domesticated dogs started only very recently. Commercial pet food has only been around for about 75 years and before that, dogs mostly fended for themselves or ate the scraps that their owners discarded. The concept of a "balanced meal" for dogs is a human one.

Now, I don't want to be drinking the raw food Kool-Aid here so if you have some references on the ill-effects of raw food for dogs, I'd really like to see them.

 

[Cflaguy]

Science Diet id S*#t...

But there are plenty of good dried kibble foods. Nutro is outstanding. I would like to see a label on this BARF stuff. Is there a preservative? Is it just raw meat or might there be stuff in it you don't want under a different name? For instance, "digest" means stomach or bowel contents. Plasma means blood.
Get a label and post it and we can make a good assessment.

 

[texastailfeathers]

Dogs haven't been wild animals for centuries...millenia even. So I don't buy that part of the BARF or RMB argument.

Even if I did believe that dogs should only eat what they would eat "in the wild", the meaty bones argument still wouldn't hold up. Have you ever watched a coyote or wolf or any other carnivore eat a prey animal? Do they eat the clean muscle meat and bone marrow and leave the rest? NO. Most go straight for the gut. And do you know what's in the gut? PLANT MATTER. Grains, grasses, leaves, bark, seeds, fruits, and vegetables.

Most carnivores don't eat other carnivores as their main diet. Most carnivores eat granivores and herbivores as their primary prey. That alone tells me that plant matter is still vitally important in a carnivore's diet.

I'm not a DVM and I don't have a degree in dog nutrition, so I think it would be pretty dangerous of me to think I could give my dog bits and pieces of this or that and provide him all the nutrition he needs. The home-prepared diets are also exponentially more expensive than even designer kibble.

I feed Diamond Naturals. Have for years (used to feed Chicken & Rice but switched to Lamb & Rice). It's mostly available at feed stores, but you might be able to get it at some privately-owned pet shops. My dogs have always had firm non-smelly stools, clean teeth, no parasites, very little gas, healthy coat and skin, bright eyes, lean muscle, and great overall health. My vet swears by it, as do many professional breeders. I've even converted rescue/foster dogs over to Diamond without an adjustment period, and nobody's ever had a problem with it.

Dog food is a very personal issue though. I've seen more people get into violent, heated debates over dog food than over human infant care and breastfeeding.

As long as the dog is healthy, to each his own.

And just for fun, you might want to take a look at this web site:
Dog Foods - "What in the world should I buy?"

It's the most informative dog food article (and collection of links) that I've ever read.

 

[Dreqqus]

If you've ever watched foxes, and coyotes(never seen a wild wolf sorry), they have a tendency to eat the stomach, the actual organ, while shaking out the stomach contents. My zoology professor claims its because the stomach contents, are highly acidic, but who knows. As GregF pointed out, the concept of 'nutritionally balanced kibble' is a fairly new one. Prior to that dogs lived up to their scavenger-born lifestyle, eating whatever people gave them.

CflaGuy, this diet is typically prepared by the pet owners for the pets. There are some premade diets available, mostly for dogs, you may be able to find a nutrition label for one of these. Since I will be feeding cats, I will be preparing my own. (Though the pictures of everyones corgis makes me want one real bad.)

 

[Dude123]

I work in a pet food and supply store, so we get alot of questions about the raw diets. The best thing you can possibly do is research, research, research. If you do a raw/home cooked diet, you have to make sure you are feeding the correct amounts of each ingredient to prevent any vitamin imbalances and that sort of thing. Look online, buy a good book or two if you can find them, and probably the most important is to talk to your vet. Generally, a good vet who knows about nutrition will be able to help you in planning a raw diet. If your vet only tells you to feed their own brand or science diet, ask them directly about the raw diet, or find a new vet. The vet will also know the dog pretty well, unless it is a new animal.

I dont know how true it is, especially across the border, but there are rumours, including from ex vet techs, that they get discounts and such if they only reccomend certain brands of food.

If you decided against the raw diets, research the hell out of kibble brands. Some are great, some are crappy, even some of the more expensive, well advertised foods. In a kibble, if you decide to go with that instead, look at the ingredient list. One of the most common allergies in dogs is wheat. A lot of foods use some sort of meat by product. Some people are ok with this, others arent. Also look for corn. Corn is a filler, and they get almost no nutrition from it, and it generally goes right through the animals system. A good food usually results in less stool, as well as needing to feed less food as well. Look into brands such as EaglePack, Wellness and Solid Gold for very high quality dry foods. Nutro is probably your best bet for quality vs cost.

The whole issue with grains and plant matter is this: Dogs go for the gut for the plant matter, as said. If they did not, they would never get stuff like vitamin C etc. The problem is,the vegtable matter has already at least been partially digested by the prey animal. Dogs digestive systems are geared towards meet, they have a harder time digesting grains and plants.

basically, the simple version is research, research, research.

hope that helps some

 

[Cflaguy]

Just to mention....

Eukanuba has byproducts and tries to make the argument that wild dogs in the wild eat the stomach contents and internal organs etc., etc., etc. But dogs in the wild are nowhere as healthy as your pet should be. Their skin is rough and dry and are usually underweight.

 

[texastailfeathers]

Eukanuba has byproducts and tries to make the argument that wild dogs in the wild eat the stomach contents and internal organs etc., etc., etc. But dogs in the wild are nowhere as healthy as your pet should be. Their skin is rough and dry and are usually underweight.

Wild dogs aren't rough and rangy because they eat byproducts. They're rough and rangy because they exercise constantly and they often go days without eating and sometimes without drinking.

And you might also be forgetting that most domestic dogs don't just receive inner nourishment. We pamper them outwardly as well--with soft beds, protein-enriched shampoo, brushing, petting, and the indulgent laziness that promotes fat retention and thus makes skin and coats smooth and silky.

Please don't blame poor health on byproducts. People eat horrid things too...pork rinds, haggis, chitterlings, liver and onions, fois gras, pickled pig feet/snouts, blood sausage, cracklin's, testicles (mountain oysters, anyone? ), rotten duck eggs, "inhabited" (read: maggot-filled) cheeses, menudo...shall I go on? :grin01: uke01:

The fact that an animal product is not trimmed and aged to the perfection that Western sensibilities dictate does not make it foul.

 

[tom e]

Dogs are entirely dependant on us.. and they have been domesticated for a long long time.
Then again other than the last 80 years or so, people didn't give them much but scraps of meat we wouldn't eat, and yes lots and lots of bones.
I don't know much about the diet, but you can't really imagine that in that short a time, they are physiologically adapted to eat kibble. :shrugs: :shrugs:

 

[diamondlil]

I changed Ellie's diet to an adaptation of the Raw Meaty Bones, after a lot of reading about it. She's going to be 11 at Easter, I felt the complete diet change might have been a shock to her system, so I still give her dog biscuits for her breakfast, and thawed out meaty bones or offal for her supper. She gets green tripe (unprepared, with plant matter still mixed in it) and cooked vegetables.
Freezing the meaty part of the diet deals with the potential for parasites.
The results so far seem to be just as predicted by the proponents of the diet. She's lean and healthy, with a lovely gloss to her coat. She had a couple of fatty lipomas that have gradually shrunk and disappeared, her teeth are in lovely condition, she's full of energy without being hypo. I always had her on a chicken and rice complete food plus table scraps before, but the way she tackles raw bones is amazing to see.She just shears through them, and has had no trouble in passing the resultant poops. The main difference is a firmer stool which seems to take more effort to pass, but the diet's author insists it is natural and massages the anal glands, preventing impaction suffered by dogs on prepared diets.
The cost is good value, I've found a butcher who'll do huge packs of turkey wings (I suspect they're really from ostriches!) chopped bones, liver and lights, and tripe dirt cheap, it's what he usually sells as 'pet mince'. If I can't get to that butcher and run low, Ellie has chicken portions or hearts from the local shops.
Judging by her reactions, the green tripe and hearts are her absolute favorites, she wanted to roll in the tripe the first few times, she found it so exciting. As it takes longer for a dog to eat, I'd personally be wary of giving large portions of meaty bones to a food guarder, but the website for the diet as well as the books do explain how to minimise such behaviour.

 

[tyflier]

Tyflier, what do you base this statement on? I only ask because I've been doing a lot of reading recently and I haven't come across cases of parasitic infection. I have found cases where people assume that such infection sould occur but it's because "common sense" tells them so. The Raw Foodies explanation for why it doesn't happen is that a dog's digestive juices are 50% hydrochloric acid, an inhospitable environment for parasites, and their digestive tracts are very short. That's why a dog can eat week-old road kill without dying of botulism.

It's also worth noting that the practice of preparing food for domesticated dogs started only very recently. Commercial pet food has only been around for about 75 years and before that, dogs mostly fended for themselves or ate the scraps that their owners discarded. The concept of a "balanced meal" for dogs is a human one.

Now, I don't want to be drinking the raw food Kool-Aid here so if you have some references on the ill-effects of raw food for dogs, I'd really like to see them.

Parasites(ringworm, roundworm, tapeworm, etc) don't typically kill an animal...they live off of it. Completely different from a viral infection obtained from a food source(botulism, salmonella, e. coli, etc.), which attacks and kills the host body.

Dog's suffer from many different types of parasitical infection obtained from a variety of "tainted" food sources, the most common being raw meats and vegetables. These infections also vary in degree of severity. Regardless of the severity, it needs to be addressed. A raw meat, vegetable, and bone diet can, and does, cause digestive parasites in domesticated mammals.

I don't have specific links that state this at my fingertips, but I sell enough worm medications, and talk to enough owners of infected animals to know that it happens...frequently. I don't think it is a terrible leap in logic to assume that feeding raw meats, veggies, and bones to your animal as the staple of their diet would cause a dramatic increase in such cases.

I'm positive, even without "evidence" to support me, that the un-healthy diets of wild dogs is at least partly responsible for a much shorter lifespan, and a much less healthy overall being. There are LOTS of things that wild dogs do that will kill your Fluffy...