just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?

[Lyreiania]

Hi Everyone. I come home tonight to hear strange sounds coming from my snakes cage when they slither. Also the apt smelled like a wet dog. Squeaky sounds, which is odd indeed considering nothing in their cage is capable of noise. I investigate, and find the shavings are really quite damp over a large area of the cage. (This is a 6 foot long and 18 inch wide enclosure housing two boys). I fed them on March 19th and neither ate with their usual appetite, but I attributed that to Male Snake Spring Fever, and no odd sounds, smells or damp shavings were seen then.

When I changed their wet bedding to dry stuff, I noted that Svengali's belly had some flaky dry cracked looking scales, dryish brownish discolored ones. No redness, no inflammation, no real broken skin. Adderal's belly has three scales that are off looking.

I am thinking due to the damp shavings that they have very mild belly scale rot, and am treating them as if it was so (chlorhexadine washes, maybe a betadine rinse as well when I have a chance to get some). But how quick does it take scale rot to develop? It seems strange that theyd be OK March 19th, and have this now on the 26th? Unless their cage has been damp for a few days? But there were no odd sounds or off smells like there were tonight so Id tend to doubt that. And I have no idea how their cage got so wet. Even if they were both in the water basin, it should not have overflowed like...a flood.

Both snakes have been unusually active now for several weeks (yay, spring). Svengali especially has slithered hither and yon in his tank, spending lots of time in their "snake loft"....a wire cube with 2 inch or so square openings all through it, originally sold as a storage thing that they use for climbing up and through and all around and basking upon. I suppose its also possible he banged up his stomach somewhat, but I tend to doubt that.

Thoughts? Thank you for any thoughts you may have.

[disgurlchar]

Hiya - Just a thought. If their water bowl is quite light then its possible they could of knocked it over. Being spring and all that, our male corn is going crazy at the moment trying to get out and I think he purposely wrecks his cage just to get my attention. Just recently he's been knocking his water bowl over.(which is made out of a strong wood with plastic covering I think, kind of like a serving bowl) This makes his favourite spot really wet and its hard to keep an eye on it if you dont know its happening. I thought it was because he may be too hot so I lowered the temps by 1 or 2 degrees but he still does it. I have read that damp bedding can lead to Scale Rot but I wouldnt have thought it would happen that quickly - As long as he keeps warm and dry, and have you checked your water bowl isn't leaking? Sorry - I am not a professional and still learning about our snakes after 2.5 years but hopefully someone on here has some more accurate knowledge :) Have you got a pic?

[bitsy]

Scale rot could probably take hold in a few days if the conditions were right for the bacteria to multiply - warm and damp/wet do sound just right, especially if it was so bad that it was making your apartment smell. The scale effect does sound like scale rot. You need to change everything out and empty the tank. Disinfect anything which can be cleaned, and the entire tank. Then replace the substrate with newspaper before putting the hides etc back in, but make sure they're all completely dry first. You'll need to treat the snakes as you suggest (Betadine worked for mine) but you'll also need to keep the tank and fittings dry and disinfected until the scale rot is clear. I'd suggest swapping to a much smaller water bowl while the rot is clearing up.

Two adult males cohabbing can easily be fighting, which can be very hectic. Just because they never have before, doesn't mean it will never happen and it's mating season right now - the height of the period when they'd be competing for mates in the wild. All it would take would be a couple of thrashing bouts in the water bowl and everything would be soaked as you describe. I'd strongly advise separating them as soon as possible before one of them is injured.

Also, double-check what kind of wood the shavings are from. If they're from pine or a soft resinous wood, then this could be causing extra irritation. However I don't think that's the main problem for you.

[Lyreiania]

Thanks bitsy and disgurlchar,
Your advice here is deeply appreciated. Their water basin is indeed large...its one of the plastic basin things they give patients in hospitals. Filled halfway, it holds a gallon of water. So its possible they were splashing water about and around.

I do know all the pro and con arguments on cohabiting snakes. My special needs crew are in separate cages (because their special needs make it impossible to house em together). When I compare the two groups, the cohabiting snakes seem ...happier, alert, just content....somehow. I also do not have space for two 6 feet long tanks and these two are too long to be housed in a 55 gallon enclosure (Svengali himself is 6 feet long and Adderal is 5 feet a few inches).

Thank you both very much again for your help/ advice here.

[BloodyBaroness]

Bitsy is right, what's going on is probably fighting.

I strongly suggest you read this: Can I Keep Multiple Snakes in One Enclosure? (http://squamishserpents.ca/care-info/can-i-keep-multiple-snakes-in-one-enclosure)

Here's the thing, cohabbing is only a huge deal because 99.9% who try to do it, do it horribly wrong.

Huge wardrobe sized tanks where the snakes have many warm and cool spots to choose from is totally fine. It sort of mimics overlapping territories in the wild. VERY VERY few people actually do it that way. (I'm talking huge, zoo level sizes type enclosures)

What you see 99.9% of the time is people being too cheap and wanting more snakes than they have space for. Jamming two full grown corn snakes into a 20 gallon tank is cruelty. They are forced to be right in each others face at all times. Even two adults in a 50 gallon is not acceptable. Still not nearly enough room to get away from each other.

Cohabbing like that can lead to stress, cannibalism, premature breeding, unwanted breeding, illness and death. That is not speculation, it's a fact. There are many threads on this site with evidence of cohabbing misfortunes.

Snakes live alone in the wild, numerous scientific researches studies prove it. They may have some areas of territory that overlap, and once in a while a few may share a den, but then they move on. Having a few kilometers of land to run around on and once in a while bump into a mate or other snake, is not the same as being stuffed in a tank with other snakes.

Snakes do not form bonds, cuddle, or mourn for cagemates. That is people putting anthropomorphic feelings on animals. Snakes are very basic creatures. They do not want company, it's not how snakes work. They are not social animals.

Cohabbing done strictly for the keeper's benefit. The is no health or well being benefit to the snake.

Keeping a pair together for a stretch of time during breeding is okay depending how it's done. You have to keep a regular check on them and make sure you are not seeing aggression. There have been instances where males have killed females, and females killing males. Don't keep them together longer than necessary. In the wild they mate and move on, they want their own space.

The bottom line is we as keepers should strive to provide the best care possible for our pets. Snakes get exactly zero benefit from cohabbing, so why would any caring keeper do it? It makes no sense.

[wildlifephotographer]

I agree with what was said above. Please, do the right thing for your snakes and put them in separate enclosures.

[Lyreiania]

So...both Adderal and Svengali look somewhat (a little) better today, and Svengali truly hated his iodine bath. Six feet of affronted snake outrage is not much fun; I got pretty soaked myself (happy his ire did not extend to biting). Adderal seemed to enjoy it, but drank some of that water. Now I find myself wondering how much iodine will kill a snake. Adderal seems intent on trying to cook himself, he burrows under the shavings and lies ON the undercage heat pad. Ive had to remove him on occasion because his body temperature seems so hot to me and if he is overheated, he will lack the sense to move on his own accord.

BloodyBaroness, My snakes are not crammed into a small cage, that is and would be cruelty. They share a massive 6 foot long enclosure by 18 inches wide by 20 inches tall. It has a loft space for them to climb in and around, adding to the square footage of the large cage. So, your belief that I am being cruel to my animals in that manner is quite unfounded. I believe in giving animals as much space as I can. I have seen their male snake in spring displays, and there is no aggression, no hostility. No biting...they simply try to mate with each other. It inevitably fails. It fails because my two snakes are male. So, I do not have to worry about them breeding...unless biology seriously goes astray. Oh, my pets do not come from pet stores. I get them from reputable breeders who DO know how to tell the boy snakes from the girl snakes.

I do not have to worry about cannibalism. They are in a Jewish home; no one starves in a Jewish household <grins/ smiles/ jokes> . They get fed regularly, well, and with copious numbers of thawed mice-icles. I have never in all the many many years I have been owning snakes, had a problem that could be solely related to cohabbing them.

I believe there is a benefit to the snake, so I will continue to do so. It is a poor comparison group as my cohabbers are the healthy ones and the ones housed separately (each in a 55 gallon; I do NOT stint my creatures when it comes to space) are my special needs guys, but my cohabbing snakes eat better, look better, and generally have better dispositions than my special needs snakes in isolation.

My healthy just purchased snakes always start in isolation before they are introduced in the large tank....and, in isolation they arent as friendly as they are when cohabiting. Adderal was aggressive and hostile when I first purchased him and he was in quarantine isolation, he is tractable, docile, and gentle now and the behavior did change with cohabbing as well as with training and frequent handling. The same holds true for Svengali. Then again, their handling and "training" program is rather intense. I tend to turn obnoxious creatures into quite gentle and trusting ones. I do see my snakes curled up together and seemingly liking each others company. If they did not, they could easily escape and choose to be alone as there are two hides in my huge spacious cage (one per snake). As I believe they do get a benefit from being in a large spacious cage, it will continue. That is, unless you think the 6 foot snake would be happiest alone in a 20 gallon long? I think he would prefer the larger enclosure...and so would his 5 feet long cagemate.

I know the risks. This thread was about probable scale rot, caused likely by an upset water basin, not for you to write a lecture to me about cohabiting snakes in what I found to be a rather sanctimonious patronizing tone; a tone which was most sincerely unappreciated. I realize that you were attempting to give aid and advice, but it came across very wrongly to me as you seemed to be insinuating that I am a) cruel to my pets and b) not caring for them well or do not care for them. And both scenarios could not be further from the truth of the matter.

Inflection and tone can not be conveyed by written media. Its possible I am misreading what you intended when you wrote that. Please let me know if that is the case. I may indeed owe you a sincere apology. I do appreciate the attempt to help, just did not like what I thought of as the intonation.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Add in one more for the separate the snakes column. I put in two males together (under the assumption one was female) and it didn't click why my known male was so stressed out. And that was just for 30 minutes supervised. Snakes don't need friends or flatmates; I have a viv comparable in dimensions (if you turn it on its side, it's 6ft tall, 3ft long, 2ft wide) to yours and I still would not house two snakes in it. We are talking ZOO like enclosures for it to be semi-ok.

Where's Beth?!

[BloodyBaroness]

We are trying to help you do right by your animals. Everyone wants to have the most quality time possible with their pets.

There is a reason why cohabbing is not done by all keepers, it's not fair to the animals at all. There are many many good reasons not to practice cohabitation, and zero reasons to do it. It ONLY benefits the keeper, it goes against the very core nature of the snakes.

In your own words above you described several clear stress and territorial issue markers. The tank you are describing is not larger enough. Males will fight over space.

Would you rather have 2 stressed out snakes in one tank that live for 8 years or 2 happy snakes in separate tanks that live for 18 years?

If you profess to know the risks, as you say, then why on earth are you doing this to your pets?

Everyone here is trying to help you.

If you elect to keep doing this it's not a matter of if you will have problems, it's a matter of when. It honestly sounds like it's already happening.

[starsevol]

Lyreiania, bottom line what you are doing is killing your snakes.
The spilled water dish coupled with a lowered immune system is what is causing your scale rot. Snakes are not designed by nature to live together, and what you are doing to them is cruelty. You have probably already cut their livespans short by what you are doing.
Science and mother nature say that your snakes need to be seperated.
What you think about it really is quite wrong.
You are killing them.

This problem you are having right now, you wouldn't be having at all if you were keeping them properly.

Bottom line, they are yours to abuse and kill.

But most of us here don't like people who do that sort of thing......

[Lyreiania]

Actually, snakes who are kept singly get scale rot as well. So its rather false to say that had they been in separate cages, this would not have happened. And as far as the event itself, mild scale rot is hardly the end of the world. I think you all are making a mountain from a molehill. All I wondered was how fast does scale rot happen in snakes? My two in separate cages have upset their water dishes. I have spilled their water dishes. Things happen. I keep my cages quite well, and anyone can have an spilled water dish. It does not constitute bad husbandry. It is not abuse. I do not agree with your opinions on this issue and yes, my snakes are mine to house as I choose. They are mine, to abuse if I so choose, as you wrote. But since when is providing a clean, large cage, ample food, and needed medical care abuse? Luckily I have no intention of nor am I abusing them by housing them together in a spacious and clean tank. Abuse would be if I denied them care. I do no such thing.

I do agree a spilled water dish caused the scale rot. As for lowered immune system, no way to know that. Perhaps their shavings had been wet for longer than I realized. Svengali has lived with me since I purchased him in November of 2006. Hes been cohabiting for 6 years? He certainly does not look dead or near dead to me. One of my other snakes was 14 or thereabouts when he died...of complications from an injury, not of scale rot or anything related to cohabitation. So, in my experience, I have never seen cohabitation lead to bad. I know the risks meaning that I see what you have wrote, did my own research online...but my life experience with it is not in line with what I read, and plenty of people cohabit snakes without issue. So, I do what I note for myself...and my animals...to be what I view as best.

Its OK to have differing opinions on a wide range of issues, and BloodyBaroness I thank you for your clarifying words.

Its not, however OK to call something abuse...or "killing my snakes" when its clearly not so. Words such as "abuse" or "killing" should not be words that is tossed about lightly.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

I was always under the impression prolonged and constant stress can contribute to a lower immune system.

[starsevol]

Actually, snakes who are kept singly get scale rot as well. So its rather false to say that had they been in separate cages, this would not have happened. And as far as the event itself, mild scale rot is hardly the end of the world. I think you all are making a mountain from a molehill. All I wondered was how fast does scale rot happen in snakes? My two in separate cages have upset their water dishes. I have spilled their water dishes. Things happen. I keep my cages quite well, and anyone can have an spilled water dish. It does not constitute bad husbandry. It is not abuse. I do not agree with your opinions on this issue and yes, my snakes are mine to house as I choose. They are mine, to abuse if I so choose, as you wrote. But since when is providing a clean, large cage, ample food, and needed medical care abuse? Luckily I have no intention of nor am I abusing them by housing them together in a spacious and clean tank. Abuse would be if I denied them care. I do no such thing.

I do agree a spilled water dish caused the scale rot. As for lowered immune system, no way to know that. Perhaps their shavings had been wet for longer than I realized. Svengali has lived with me since I purchased him in November of 2006. Hes been cohabiting for 6 years? He certainly does not look dead or near dead to me. One of my other snakes was 14 or thereabouts when he died...of complications from an injury, not of scale rot or anything related to cohabitation. So, in my experience, I have never seen cohabitation lead to bad. I know the risks meaning that I see what you have wrote, did my own research online...but my life experience with it is not in line with what I read, and plenty of people cohabit snakes without issue. So, I do what I note for myself...and my animals...to be what I view as best.

Its OK to have differing opinions on a wide range of issues, and BloodyBaroness I thank you for your clarifying words.

Its not, however OK to call something abuse...or "killing my snakes" when its clearly not so. Words such as "abuse" or "killing" should not be words that is tossed about lightly.

But your cage is not big enough.
What you are putting your snakes through is cruelty.
In nature, when an animal shows distress it is singled out as prey, so snakes are stoic when they are suffering, just like yours
Lowered immune systmes are caused by stress, stress is caused by.....co habbing!
You really are killing your snakes. I really don't care whether my saying that bothers you or not, it is the truth. You say you don't deny them care, but what you are denying them what they really need, solitude. You are denying them a BASIC need, something as important as food and water and shelter. You are denying them what they need to BE snakes, and act as they are supposed to act, and live how they are supposed to live.
On a very basic level, snakes are not meant to live together. In nature, they never see each other except in breeding season.

Imagine if you were locked in a room with someone you couldn't stand. You had to face this person every single day with no way out ever for the rest of your life. You can't eat, go to the bathroom, do anything without bumping into someone you hate. And you can't show it, or you know you will die. You have to hold it in, forever. No way out.
That is what you are doing to your snakes, and it is cruel.

What you are doing is just like saying "I know the risks of letting my baby ride unrestrained in a car. Sure, he could die. But I like doing it this way. He seems happy and doesn't cry from being in the car seat".
You are just as ignorant. Actually, no, you know the risks and you just don't care....

[Isoldael]

Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael

[Guruofchem]

By my calculations, your viv is a bit over 110 gallons, without a lot of height to help extend the footprint vertically (yes, I know they aren't truly arboreal, but space is space). For two large males, this just doesn't seem to be enough space. We all tend to anthropomorphize our reptiles - I'm as guilty as the next person - and we want to think their "emotional" responses are real, but this is just not the case. Your guys aren't better off because they share space; they are better because your basic husbandry is excellent, because you care about and for them. The advice you've been given about separating them is sound, regardless of how it has been stated or received; do not dismiss it because of your emotional response to it. Ultimately the choice is yours, but if it were me in this spot I'd separate them. Either way, good luck to you and the two boys...

[Nanci]

Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael

So you just don't care that her snakes are exhibiting ritual fighting? IN THE WILD the defeated male would leave the dominant male's territory. Here, he is forced to stay, and be stressed. The dominant male is stressed, too, by continually having to defend his territory. Stress lowers both snakes' immune systems.

What benefit is there to these two snakes by cohabbing them? NONE.

What benefit is there to these two snakes by providing separate enclosures? EVERYTHING.

It's ridiculous to speculate on what could or could not be causing scale rot when there is a much greater danger to the snakes already present.

[WestCoast_Redneck]

Lyreiania, the one thing I love about this forum is that everyone tries to help the best they can. The advise is ALWAYS there..However, some forget their way is not the only way and advise gets heated. While many disagree with co-habbing (obviously), I genuinely respect this is not the topic requested. I hope your snakes get better soon, and the one who drank a bit of iodine doesn't have any issues :) My snake always poops in the bathtub, then has a huge drink and scares me. Hey, some believe giving your snake a soak is unnecessary and stressful, and others believe snakes drinking tap water is dangerous: There's many opinions regarding corn snake care, ultimately it's your choice on what you believe is best and sometimes it's a trial and error journey...

I agree with Isoldael- I have never myself dealt with scale rot, however from what I've read, it's best to switch their substrate to paper towel (changing it daily?) and keep their viv extremely clean to avoid bacteria making matters worse. Wishing you the very best xx

[Isoldael]

So you just don't care that her snakes are exhibiting ritual fighting?

Actually, nothing I've read here proves that they are ritually fighting. Mounting each other may be seen as fighting in other species, but if they are actually trying to MATE (which is different) then I don't see that as fighting. I mean, my male corn (who is housed alone) has tried to mount and breed with a piece of wood. Are you saying I should remove this piece of wood because he's ritually fighting over space?

Again, I appreciate that you have a different opinion about cohabbing, but there is no need to force it upon others in a thread that isn't even closely related to cohabbing.

[Nanci]

Stress is related to cohabbing. But that's okay- you can make the choice for your snakes when they can't make it for themselves. They are your animals to....care for.

[starsevol]

Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael

All this post tells me is that animal cruelty is a common practice in the Netherlands...I don't care how many people are "doing it wrong", it is still wrong!

[Isoldael]

How about someone makes a new topic to address animal cruelty in the Netherlands so we stop polluting this thread?

What I would like to see is proof of how cohabbing is stressing my snakes out. I've witnessed the same changes the OP has since I've cohabbed some of them - they are way calmer, have a slower, more normal breath rate when approached, never refused a meal and never exhibited any sort of stress or territorial behaviour. Personally, I haven't owned snakes for a full snake lifespan yet, but all the people I know over here who cohab have had their snakes live normal life spans with no health issues that you wouldn't encounter in snakes that are homed seperately. In the years that I've had my snakes, none of them have had ANY health issues whatsoever except for Saphira, who recently had an oviduct prolapse (note that she has been housed seperately for a while now). Do I take this as proof that seperate homing of snakes is bad for them and causes oviduct prolapses? No. That's a ridiculous conclusion to jump to. Does that mean I'll go and scavenge for threads to spout my opinion regarding cohabbing on whenever a snake that is not cohabbed gets a health issue? No! I will stick to the topic and try to answer any questions the OP might have, without spouting ridiculous accusations such as "YOU ARE KILLING YOUR SNAKES" when I have zero proof for that.

[starsevol]

How about someone makes a new topic to address animal cruelty in the Netherlands so we stop polluting this thread?

What I would like to see is proof of how cohabbing is stressing my snakes out. I've witnessed the same changes the OP has since I've cohabbed some of them - they are way calmer, have a slower, more normal breath rate when approached, never refused a meal and never exhibited any sort of stress or territorial behaviour. Personally, I haven't owned snakes for a full snake lifespan yet, but all the people I know over here who cohab have had their snakes live normal life spans with no health issues that you wouldn't encounter in snakes that are homed seperately. In the years that I've had my snakes, none of them have had ANY health issues whatsoever except for Saphira, who recently had an oviduct prolapse (note that she has been housed seperately for a while now). Do I take this as proof that seperate homing of snakes is bad for them and causes oviduct prolapses? No. That's a ridiculous conclusion to jump to. Does that mean I'll go and scavenge for threads to spout my opinion regarding cohabbing on whenever a snake that is not cohabbed gets a health issue? No! I will stick to the topic and try to answer any questions the OP might have, without spouting ridiculous accusations such as "YOU ARE KILLING YOUR SNAKES" when I have zero proof for that.

That is why stress is called the silent killer. Of course you won't see it. And yes, you are killing your snakes, or at least giving them a horrible crappy life. Way to go!!!

[Isoldael]

Wait, so because I see no proof of ANY STRESS or stress related issues, it's a silent killer? That's about as sound a reasoning as claiming that feeding your corn snake mice kills them. Can't see any proof of it and your snakes live normal, long, healthy lives? That's cause it's a silent killer! Same goes for letting them drink water or housing them on bedding. Oh, and keeping them in wooden vivs and glass vivs is deadly too!

Sorry, but that made absolutely no sense.

On a side note, I've reported this thread and hope a mod will clean it up soon. This is getting completely ridiculous.

[starsevol]

Wait, so because I see no proof of ANY STRESS or stress related issues, it's a silent killer? That's about as sound a reasoning as claiming that feeding your corn snake mice kills them. Can't see any proof of it and your snakes live normal, long, healthy lives? That's cause it's a silent killer! Same goes for letting them drink water or housing them on bedding. Oh, and keeping them in wooden vivs and glass vivs is deadly too!

Sorry, but that made absolutely no sense.

On a side note, I've reported this thread and hope a mod will clean it up soon. This is getting completely ridiculous.

Like I said before, in the wild if an animal shows distress it shortly after becomes prey. They instinctivly will not show stress. Usually when a snake shows there is something wrong, it is too late to save it.

And please, tell me how forcing an animal with a companion that goes against every.single.instinct it has is benefitting it?

Cruelty, pure and simple.

Edited to add, what is really ridiculous is you reporting a thread because you don't like what is being said. You don't like your cruel husbandry practices being questioned. Have you not noticed that one of the most outspoken posters in this thread IS A MODERATOR?????

[Nanci]

On a side note, I've reported this thread and hope a mod will clean it up soon. This is getting completely ridiculous.

Mods don't edit or delete anything on this site. Nor are threads required to remain on topic.

[Isoldael]

And please, tell me how forcing an animal with a companion that goes against every.single.instinct it has is benefitting it?

Okay, I have no proof for this. This is from personal observation and holds no scientific value.

Several of my snakes that were extremely shy and would rattle their tails or even do mock attacks when I would pick them up to feed them or give them a check-up, have settled down completely since being cohabbed. This means I can now pick them up, feed them and otherwise handle them without causing additional stress. I find that to be a major advantage. I'm fairly convinced that snakes don't form bonds or friendships with each other, but my theory is that the calming effect happens because they get more used to being around movement and being touched by other moving things.

Again, I have no scientific proof for any of this, but at least I KNOW I'm speculating. It's very easy to yell "omg you monster", but what good does it do when you have only examples of times where it's gone wrong (and almost always due to the owner's own mistakes)? This is almost at the point of the hybrid discussions now - ranting, yelling at each other and saying extremely mean things without backing it up or even realizing that this wasn't what the thread was about in the first place. How about you try to respect someone elses opinion without accusing them of animal cruelty?

[Isoldael]

Mods don't edit or delete anything on this site. Nor are threads required to remain on topic.


Alright, my bad. I was under the impression that right-out telling someone that they are killing their snakes and that "we don't like people like you here" would fall under hateful or at the very least a personal attack. My bad. I'll stay off this thread for now.

Again, OP, my apologies, and I hope you won't let these people get under your skin. You're very well entitled to making your own decisions, and as long as you do the research, cohabbing can be done very well :)

[starsevol]

Okay, I have no proof for this. This is from personal observation and holds no scientific value.

Several of my snakes that were extremely shy and would rattle their tails or even do mock attacks when I would pick them up to feed them or give them a check-up, have settled down completely since being cohabbed. This means I can now pick them up, feed them and otherwise handle them without causing additional stress. I find that to be a major advantage. I'm fairly convinced that snakes don't form bonds or friendships with each other, but my theory is that the calming effect happens because they get more used to being around movement and being touched by other moving things.

Again, I have no scientific proof for any of this, but at least I KNOW I'm speculating. It's very easy to yell "omg you monster", but what good does it do when you have only examples of times where it's gone wrong (and almost always due to the owner's own mistakes)? This is almost at the point of the hybrid discussions now - ranting, yelling at each other and saying extremely mean things without backing it up or even realizing that this wasn't what the thread was about in the first place. How about you try to respect someone elses opinion without accusing them of animal cruelty?

For the first part, SCIENTISTS and NATURALISTS are saying that these animals are solitary animals.

And sure, a calmer less bitey snake benefits YOU, but what if the snake is high strung by nature and by housing it in with another snake it is not allowed to exhibit it's true disposition. What if what you are doing is forcing the snake to act in a way it wouldn't act naturally?

Some snakes are naturally calmer and nicer than others. Some aren't. What you might see as a calmer animal might in fact be an animal that is stressed into being something it isn't.

[Nanci]

Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.

[Nanci]

Bottom line, they are yours to abuse and kill.

But most of us here don't like people who do that sort of thing......

telling someone that they are killing their snakes

and that "we don't like people like you here" would fall under hateful or at the very least a personal attack.

Paraphrasing is not the same as a direct quote. See the difference?

[BloodyBaroness]

Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.

+1 to this.

Well said Nanci!

[Nanci]

If anyone is having trouble understanding why I am posting in normal person black, and moderator blue, that is because I _am_ allowed to have a personal opinion here, I am not, as a regular member, required to be impartial. If I make a statement as a moderator, it will be noted as such.

[starsevol]

Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.


Word. ^^^^^^^^^^^

Tried to rep you and I have to spread it around. Someone please get it for me.

[Chip]

I'm out of Nanci rep too. I have heard people argue for dogfighting because their dog "likes to fight." That's about as logical as the cohabbing arguments.

[Tara80]

I repped her for y'all.
It was very well said.

[Isoldael]

For the first part, SCIENTISTS and NATURALISTS are saying that these animals are solitary animals.

And sure, a calmer less bitey snake benefits YOU, but what if the snake is high strung by nature and by housing it in with another snake it is not allowed to exhibit it's true disposition. What if what you are doing is forcing the snake to act in a way it wouldn't act naturally?

Some snakes are naturally calmer and nicer than others. Some aren't. What you might see as a calmer animal might in fact be an animal that is stressed into being something it isn't.

As for snakes not being solitary animals - I'll come back to the cat example. They are solitary creatures in the wild, yet TONS of people house them together. Do you go around telling those people that they are killing their cats because of stress? Or how about dogs, who naturally live in packs. Do you go around telling people who only have one dog that they are killing their dog because of stress?

Back to snakes - I'll go for the more scientific approach then. Abnormally high heart rates and breath rates are considered signs of stress (not taking into account the breath rate when snakes are smelling their environment, as it's a lot higher then). If the snake is obviously stressed, bity and "high strung", that doens't benefit the snake in any way. It does benefit me personally if I don't get bit every time I pick up my snakes, but that's not why I like them to be calm (honestly, corn snake bites aren't that bad). I like them calm because it benefits THEM. High stress hormone levels aren't good for any creature. Biting me all the time won't help them either (possible issues with accidental tooth extraction, etc).

You keep bringing up how a snake "would act naturally". The thing is, we're taking them out of the wild and putting them into a situation where they cannot act naturally. They can't hunt (unless you release them onto a large patch of land with live mice?), they can't explore, they don't face dangers such as predators or physical injury by sharp objects. The behaviour you describe (biting, being high strung, etc) are a direct result of those threats in the wild. Being stressed helps them to survive, there. In captivity, none of that is necessary as they don't face any threats (or at least, not if we can help it). I'm not "not allowing my snake to exhibit its true disposition", I'm putting them in a situation where they get used to touch so they don't get stressed out every time they are picked up.

I do think that if people want to cohab, they should keep in mind that each snake is different. My male, for instance, does not respond well to cohabbing - he displays some barely noticable signs of stress when cohabbed, so he has his own viv. Not all snakes will be suited for living together, just like some humans aren't.

Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.

I'm very much aware of the fact that you can't see stress. Like you said, you can see its effects. If you, however, don't see any effects over a large group of people that are properly cohabbed (enough space, enough hides, enough food, fed seperately), that may not be proof that cohabbing can be done without increased risk, but it surely is an indication.

As for noticing signs of stress, I'm very much aware that I'm not an expert. I do, however, have a lot of experience in noticing small things, small changes in behaviour, breathing, feeding pattern, etc. as we were taught these things in veterinary medicine. Furthermore, I've raised each of my snakes myself and am very familiar with their normal behavioural patterns - changes in those could also indicate stress. I love my snakes to bits, and if I thought that cohabbing them did any harm, I certainly wouldn't be doing it. Telling people who cohab that they are killing their snakes or that it's animal cruelty is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily harsh and harmful thing to say.

Again, I understand that people have different opinions, but I just wish people would be at least somewhat respectful to one another without resorting to guilt-tripping someone into thinking they are doing as much as KILLING their snakes. When a simple question like "how long does it take for scale rot to manifest itself" is asked, no one asks you to start spouting opinions about cohabbing, ESPECIALLY if the OP already asked you to stop it and stay on topic. I know many of you bash Carpe Serpentis for bringing up the hybrid topic when it's not related to the original post, but the exact same thing is happening here... I'm half waiting for the "show pics of your collection then!" -.-

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Just a quick correction - wild/feral dogs are not pack animals, they are opportunistic scavengers. They will come together as a group if it benefits them, but they will separate when that benefit is over. True packs are wolves (family units) and hyenas.

I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.

Carry on. ;)

[Isoldael]

Just a quick correction - wild/feral dogs are not pack animals, they are opportunistic scavengers. They will come together as a group if it benefits them, but they will separate when that benefit is over. True packs are wolves (family units) and hyenas.

I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.

Carry on. ;)

Wow, a sensible argument, thanks for that :). Yes, stress can cause things to manifest themselves faster, so a meaningful reply to the topic would have been "Normally, it takes about x days for it to manifest itself, but the fact that you're cohabbing might mean extra stress so it could be a bit faster than that". Instead, we already have about 4 pages of discussion on cohabbing that I sadly contributed to :(

[starsevol]

As for snakes not being solitary animals - I'll come back to the cat example. They are solitary creatures in the wild, yet TONS of people house them together. Do you go around telling those people that they are killing their cats because of stress? Or how about dogs, who naturally live in packs. Do you go around telling people who only have one dog that they are killing their dog because of stress?

. I love my snakes to bits, and if I thought that cohabbing them did any harm, I certainly wouldn't be doing it. Telling people who cohab that they are killing their snakes or that it's animal cruelty is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily harsh and harmful thing to say.

Again, I understand that people have different opinions, but I just wish people would be at least somewhat respectful to one another without resorting to guilt-tripping someone into thinking they are doing as much as KILLING their snakes. When a simple question like "how long does it take for scale rot to manifest itself" is asked, no one asks you to start spouting opinions about cohabbing, ESPECIALLY if the OP already asked you to stop it and stay on topic. I know many of you bash Carpe Serpentis for bringing up the hybrid topic when it's not related to the original post, but the exact same thing is happening here... I'm half waiting for the "show pics of your collection then!" -.-

Well, for starters, both dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousands of years and thousands of generations. Snakes, notsomuch. Dogs and cats have adapted to being pets, snakes notsomuch.......

As far as "showing respect" for someone I believe is putting their animals health and lives at risk due to their own selfishness....someone I consider cruel...sorry but it will be a cold day in Hades.....

This health issue was likely caused by her poor husbandry and even if it wasn't, I am sure her future health issues will be.

Edited to add, you have a large number of people telling you that what you are doing is hurting your snakes. People who have kept snakes much longer than you have. And instead of listening, you choose to believe that what you are doing is fine and dandy. I guess EVERYONE here is wrong, and you are right? One person here (not me) likened your arguments to co hab to people who fight and kill dogs. Doesn't that mean anything?

[Tara80]

I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.


This is also what it appears to me. It's breeding season and it *sounds* like they are having territorial issues; I see males go through this every Spring. having two males in a tank at this time of year would definitely cause fighting and undue stress. I think this is common sense as far as most breeders would see it, just through years of observation.

I've had snakes knock over their water bowls and sit in wet aspen/water for a few days until i've noticed and never has scale rot been an issue. That tells me the snake under question has a larger than average stress level.

[starsevol]

This is also what it appears to me. It's breeding season and it *sounds* like they are having territorial issues; I see males go through this every Spring. having two males in a tank at this time of year would definitely cause fighting and undue stress. I think this is common sense as far as most breeders would see it, just through years of observation.

I've had snakes knock over their water bowls and sit in wet aspen/water for a few days until i've noticed and never has scale rot been an issue. That tells me the snake under question has a larger than average stress level.

I agree. To a breeder this would be obvious. Sadly, it seems common sense is lacking in this case.

[Nanci]

I think someone should put two cats together in a Varikennel and see how well that goes over...

[starsevol]

I think someone should put two cats together in a Varikennel and see how well that goes over...

Good idea! Cats living in the same house have many rooms they can go in and are not forced in the company of other cats, unlike poor cohabbed mistreated abused snakes.....

[Alicia P]

OP I have no advise for the scale rot issue, but it sounds like you have a handle on the situation.

However I am also in the you should not cohab camp. I know you said you do not have the space for another tank, but the tank you have is 72" x 18" x 20" you could simply divide it it in half, making two 36" x 18" x 20" enclosures side by side, both plenty big for adult cornsnakes. If you move your UTH and thermostat to the middle then you don't even have to buy another heat mat.

Stress arguments aside, scale rot is a bacterial infection and as such it is potentially contagious, if you had not been cohabbing you would likely only be treating one snake for the condition instead of both. This holds true for other ailments and sicknesses as well. If one snake happens to regurge, how do you know which one did it? Same goes for funky poop. If one gets a respiratory virus, the other will probably get it too, etc... In the end it is completely your decision, but in the long run it will ultimately cost you more money because you have to treat both when an illness arises.

Also unless you have a way to watch your snakes 24/7 you can.not.know if they are fighting or bothering each other in the middle of the night, when you are at work or even when you are in another room.

Here is a vid of two male corn snakes that were put together as a test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogmNZkRd9Zo
And here is one of two wild snakes who don't seem to like each other very much http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAjePRLlNlU

[BloodyBaroness]

Here's the thing, to the OP, do you honestly think we would waste our time, or even bother posting here if we did not have the best interest of your snakes in mind?

We could easily write you off and ignore you. However, the reason people are are giving you opinions on why not to cohab is because we care about long term the health a safety of your snakes.

In the end they are your snakes and you can do what ever you wish with them, but sit there and say "nothing is wrong" is foolish. Your snake are showing stress behaviors.

I wish you the best, I guess you are doing the best you can.

[Lyreiania]

I should think if my snakes were so stressed out, so unhappy, so miserable, that they would show signs of it. You say stress is a silent killer, but signs of stress in an animal such as a snake would be not eating, aggression. Snakes are not humans, to hold in stress or whatever emotional state they feel. Upset snakes show it. My snakes are gentle, and they eat very regularly. I do not think they would be eating if they were that disturbed. Snakes go off their food at any reason...stress should be among them

You stated the snakes dont feel companionship or sentiment. I should think your belief they are unhappy is equally potential anthropomorphizing. In the wild they may be solitary...doesnt mean a captive bred, non wild, domesticated snake is unhappy in a cohabbing situation.

"Abuse" and "killing" are words with actual defined meanings, and boundaries within those meanings, objective measures of what constitutes them. Phrases like "you are killing your snakes" are unfounded, to say the least. "Cruelty", however, is a bit more subjective...what one thinks is cruel, another may believe is kind. So, I can not dispute your belief that it is cruel...but I passionately disagree. I understand your words were motivated by what you believe is best for snakes.

On the topic, snakes seem better today though I think Adderal is a bit slower than normal. I hope they both shed and recover very soon.

[starsevol]

They ARE showing signs of it. You don't know what you are looking at. But I know you are doing the best you can.....

[diamondlil]

If the snakes were kept seperately you would only have one with scale rot as it's a bacterial infection.

[Lyreiania]

Not so...just cause one has it, does not mean the other WILL get it, even though it is contagious. It is not a given that the other snake WILL get it. I have had the experience of two cohabitating snakes where one got scale rot and the other did not.

[starsevol]

Not so...just cause one has it, does not mean the other WILL get it, even though it is contagious. It is not a given that the other snake WILL get it. I have had the experience of two cohabitating snakes where one got scale rot and the other did not.

Righttttttt. Nothing says "I love my sankes" more than that!! These animals depend on you for EVERYTHING. Let's not only crowd them into one cage, but let's keep them together even if one has a contagious disease!! Way to go!!!!!

Piss poor husbandry.

[diamondlil]

Not so...just cause one has it, does not mean the other WILL get it, even though it is contagious. It is not a given that the other snake WILL get it. I have had the experience of two cohabitating snakes where one got scale rot and the other did not.
Ok, I'll put it another way. If the snakes were in seperate enlosures the chances of more than one contracting the scale rot would be considerably smaller, given normal levels of hygiene practice.

[BloodyBaroness]

Not so...just cause one has it, does not mean the other WILL get it, even though it is contagious. It is not a given that the other snake WILL get it. I have had the experience of two cohabitating snakes where one got scale rot and the other did not.

Your snakes should not be getting scale rot period. Healthy well cared for snakes do not get scale rot. Scale rot means something is wrong in the environment in which they are being kept.

Poor husbandry and stress wearing out the immune systems are potential causes.

Scale rot is NOT normal or common in animals that are being cared for properly.

[Tara80]

Lyreiania, stress is not an emotion. You can look that up.

Plants feel stress. Trees feel stress when you cut them down.

It's not an "emotion", it's a flight/fight mechanism that all living organisms have.

[Nanci]

I fed them on March 19th and neither ate with their usual appetite,

My snakes...eat very regularly. I do not think they would be eating if they were that disturbed. Snakes go off their food at any reason...stress should be among them... I think Adderal is a bit slower than normal.

You _are_ observing signs of stress, whether you choose to interpret it as such or choose to ignore it. I'm sure you're doing the best you can.

[starsevol]

Your snakes should not be getting scale rot period. Healthy well cared for snakes do not get scale rot. Scale rot means something is wrong in the environment in which they are being kept.

Poor husbandry and stress wearing out the immune systems are potential causes.

Scale rot is NOT normal or common in animals that are being cared for properly.

This is true. Mojo, Syko and Stark have been spilling their water constantly for the past 2 weeks. I have come home to their tubs looking like a sauna.

And in 18 years of snake keeping, I have never even seen scale rot in real life.

The very FACT that you have scale rot in the first place means that something is wrong. And to knowingly expose the other snake to a contagious illness, what the hell are you thinking?????

[Lyreiania]

LOL. I very obviously did not make myself clear, I apologize for that. When I had the situation where one had it and the other did not, of course they were separated during its treatment; it is after all contagious. In this case, BOTH seem to have it, so there is no reason to separate them. BOTH are being treated concurrently. It is like two human patients who have the same disease being in the same hospital room. Patients with MRSA can be in the same room. This is no different.

As for scale rot, it happens, and does not have to be associated with bad husbandry. I keep my animals quite clean. I have been keeping snakes well over 10 years. In all that time, this is the second time Ive seen it (third if you count each snake as a separate event). IF it even is scale rot to begin with (though it likely is) I think my housing is OK :)



And if I divided their large tank into two, then I believe I would be cruel as neither snake would have enough room....I believe that its cruel if they can not stretch out fully in an enclosure.

[Isoldael]

Actually, scale rot is not necessarily a sign of stress. I've seen many healthy, well-kept snakes develop scale rot. I've seen many cohabbed snakes spill their water and not develop scale rot. Claiming that the scale rot in this case is a direct result of cohabbing is another unfounded consclusion.

[starsevol]

LOL. I very obviously did not make myself clear, I apologize for that. When I had the situation where one had it and the other did not, of course they were separated during its treatment; it is after all contagious. In this case, BOTH seem to have it, so there is no reason to separate them. BOTH are being treated concurrently. It is like two human patients who have the same disease being in the same hospital room. Patients with MRSA can be in the same room. This is no different.

As for scale rot, it happens, and does not have to be associated with bad husbandry. I keep my animals quite clean. I have been keeping snakes well over 10 years. In all that time, this is the second time Ive seen it (third if you count each snake as a separate event). IF it even is scale rot to begin with (though it likely is) I think my housing is OK :)



And if I divided their large tank into two, then I believe I would be cruel as neither snake would have enough room....I believe that its cruel if they can not stretch out fully in an enclosure.

Nope, your housing is not ok. If your cage split in half is not big enough for each snake, it sure as hell is not big enough is for 2.....they need to be in an enclosure where they can't even see each other.

And if you were keeping them properly, scale rot wouldn't happen.....

Healthy well kept snakes don't get scale rot. Apparently, yours are not healthy or well kept.

[BloodyBaroness]

Actually, scale rot is not necessarily a sign of stress. I've seen many healthy, well-kept snakes develop scale rot. I've seen many cohabbed snakes spill their water and not develop scale rot. Claiming that the scale rot in this case is a direct result of cohabbing is another unfounded consclusion.

Prove it. Prove to me that lower immune response due to stress does not have the possibility to cause scale rot.

[starsevol]

Actually, scale rot is not necessarily a sign of stress. I've seen many healthy, well-kept snakes develop scale rot. I've seen many cohabbed snakes spill their water and not develop scale rot. Claiming that the scale rot in this case is a direct result of cohabbing is another unfounded consclusion.

Prove it. Prove to me that lower immune response due to stress does not have the possibility to cause scale rot.

BB, I think her definition of healthy and well kept is quite a bit different than ours is!
I would like to see it proven as well.

[Isoldael]

Prove it. Prove to me that lower immune response due to stress does not have the possibility to cause scale rot.

I'm not saying it doesn't have the capability of causing scale rot. I said that saying stress caused it in this case is jumping to conclusions.

[BloodyBaroness]

I'm not saying it doesn't have the capability of causing scale rot. I said that saying stress caused it in this case is jumping to conclusions.

These snakes are clearly showing signs of stress, I don't see that as being a far jump at all.

Under normal conditions snakes can develop scale rot, but that is exceedingly rare. Since more than one of OP's snakes are having or have had issues with scale rot, that is pointing straight to poor husbandry or husbandry issues.

[Cronsnakes]

This is getting way out of hand, how about you two guys listen to the people who have had snakes for YEARS UPON YEARS and know what there talking about and buy another tank simple as that.

[Isoldael]

This is getting way out of hand, how about you two guys listen to the people who have had snakes for YEARS UPON YEARS and know what there talking about and buy another tank simple as that.

Oh, but just because we are outnumbered here doesn't mean that others don't share the same opinion. Many reputable breeders in the Netherlands and even other countries have cohabbed for YEARS UPON YEARS without any issues at all. Just that a lot of people claim one thing or the other doesn't make one right and one wrong.

[starsevol]

Oh, but just because we are outnumbered here doesn't mean that others don't share the same opinion. Many reputable breeders in the Netherlands and even other countries have cohabbed for YEARS UPON YEARS without any issues at all. Just that a lot of people claim one thing or the other doesn't make one right and one wrong.

Sureeeee there are LOTS of people who put their animals at risk. But it is nothing to be proud of.
Seems Spain tortures bulls for fun, and I guess the Netherlands does it with snakes......
No decent keeper, I don't care where you are from, cohabs unles they have room sized enclosures.

[Nanci]

Many reputable breeders in the Netherlands and even other countries have cohabbed for YEARS UPON YEARS without any issues at all.

Who ?

[Lyreiania]

Proove mine are "stressed". You can not. A few weeks of male snake in spring does not equal a snake being "stressed". I think snakes are mistreated when they are in enclosures that are small, but your belief on what constitutes "small" may be different than my own.

Of course I keep them properly, or else I would have issues of ill health quite often, instead of stunningly healthy well cared for animals. You are, of course, free to have your own opinion, on what is cruel, but one cant make up their own facts.

[Nanci]

Thoughts? Thank you for any thoughts you may have.

So- I guess you only wanted input that agreed with what you already "know" then.

[starsevol]

So- I guess you only wanted input that agreed with what you already "know" then.

Sad that strangers care more about her snakes than she does......but it goes to show, some people refuse to see what is in front of them, and prefer lousy husbandry practices, over listening to people who know more than they do....

[Lyreiania]

No Nanci. I appreciate the comments given, even though this thread was to find out how quickly scale rot develops; its incubation period. What irritated me was the tone of what was written, NOT the substance of what was written even when it was off topic; there is a big difference between the two. Differences of opinion and belief do not trouble me; posts that come across as sanctimonious, accusatory, and inflammatory do. Appreciating what was written does not need I have to implement what to me does not make sense based on my own observations.

You quoted where I posted they ate less, in a meal in March and tried to imply that proved stress, as I wrote snakes stressed likely would not eat. Male snakes in isolation often go on a springtime hunger strike; the fact that cohabiting male snakes ate less in spring does not suffice to show overwhelming stress. If they ate less in a NON mating season, maybe then I would give your example some credence.

The false analogy of cohabitating to dog fighting made it clear to me that for some posters, this issue was more of an emotional one than it was one of logic or reason. I trust what I see. And, what I see of my snakes says they are fine as they are housed.

[Isoldael]

Who ?

I've sent them a message asking if it's alright if I use them as an example here. As soon as I get the OK, I'll give you the names :)

[starsevol]

No Nanci. I appreciate the comments given, even though this thread was to find out how quickly scale rot develops; its incubation period. What irritated me was the tone of what was written, NOT the substance of what was written even when it was off topic; there is a big difference between the two. Differences of opinion and belief do not trouble me; posts that come across as sanctimonious, accusatory, and inflammatory do. Appreciating what was written does not need I have to implement what to me does not make sense based on my own observations.

You quoted where I posted they ate less, in a meal in March and tried to imply that proved stress, as I wrote snakes stressed likely would not eat. Male snakes in isolation often go on a springtime hunger strike; the fact that cohabiting male snakes ate less in spring does not suffice to show overwhelming stress. If they ate less in a NON mating season, maybe then I would give your example some credence.

The false analogy of cohabitating to dog fighting made it clear to me that for some posters, this issue was more of an emotional one than it was one of logic or reason. I trust what I see. And, what I see of my snakes says they are fine as they are housed.

You asked the incubation period of scale rot. Fine. But most of us have never ever had it before. Why is that? And why have your snakes had it more than once? And since we have never had it before how the hell are we supposed to know the incubation?? So, we tell you the most likely reason why, and you state that it can't be the reason, and you refuse to change.
Well, if you won't listen, why bloody ask?

[starsevol]

I've sent them a message asking if it's alright if I use them as an example here. As soon as I get the OK, I'll give you the names :)

Great idea! It will alert the proper European keepers who to steer clear of. Brilliant!

[Nanci]

Would you not say that for WHATEVER REASON, whether natural or unnatural, stress is counter-productive to health? (They say that about humans, too. We might be stressed from moving to a new home, a marriage, a birth, and though these are joyful occasions, that stress is _still_ considered harmful to our health). Yes, we know that some males are so frantic in their search for a mate, that they stop eating. Just the springtime search for a mate is stressful. Add to that the self-imposed cessation of regular feeding, for weeks or months. Add to that the stress of living with a competitor, for mates, territory, food, shelter- _that_ is unnatural. No stress is good stress.

[Lyreiania]

Sad that strangers care more about her snakes than she does......but it goes to show, some people refuse to see what is in front of them, and prefer lousy husbandry practices, over listening to people who know more than they do....

If you had substance to your argument, you would not need to reply with a personal attack. Saying I dont care about the snakes is one. If I did not care about them, Id not have posted the situation. I had no idea that caring for pets meant I did only what YOU approved. <sarcasm>

I see what is in front of me; two snakes enjoying their huge well cared for terrarium.

It is sad that instead of an exchange of ideas and opinions, this is degenerating into insults and attacks.

[starsevol]

If you had substance to your argument, you would not need to reply with a personal attack. Saying I dont care about the snakes is one. If I did not care about them, Id not have posted the situation. I had no idea that caring for pets meant I did only what YOU approved. <sarcasm>

I see what is in front of me; two snakes enjoying their huge well cared for terrarium.

It is sad that instead of an exchange of ideas and opinions, this is degenerating into insults and attacks.

....and you have been told that what you are doing is contributing to their poor health, but you won't change.
This is not about me, or you. This is about animals that SCIENCE states should live alone.
Is their terrarium bedroom sized? If not, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!

Hear that sound? It is your name being added to numerous DNST/DNBF lists alllllll over the interwebz!!!!!!!!

[starsevol]

Would you not say that for WHATEVER REASON, whether natural or unnatural, stress is counter-productive to health? (They say that about humans, too. We might be stressed from moving to a new home, a marriage, a birth, and though these are joyful occasions, that stress is _still_ considered harmful to our health). Yes, we know that some males are so frantic in their search for a mate, that they stop eating. Just the springtime search for a mate is stressful. Add to that the self-imposed cessation of regular feeding, for weeks or months. Add to that the stress of living with a competitor, for mates, territory, food, shelter- _that_ is unnatural. No stress is good stress.

Lyre, answer this please.

It is obvious to anyone reading this thread that what I said is true. You really don't care about them. You say you know the pros and cons....well please enlighten me. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE?? I seem to have missed that part.

[Alicia P]

I think it was mentioned somewhere but I am not finding it, how old are the two snakes with scale rot?

[rich333]

To the OP....

In your Original post.... you describe the enclosure as being 6 ft long By 18 Inches wide. Can I assume the Height dimension is either 18 or 24 inches?

Now...I'm Not sure what you paid for said enclosure.....But i'm rather Positive you could have bought a 10 tub rack system with belly heat...for $440.00 Shipped from Animal Plastics. Add an Extra $100.00 for the 10 tubs, and your total...is $540.00.

I'm Almost positive...unless you built the enclosure....the price tag was comparable to the rack system i described.

My point is....

They don't Miss one another...they don't "Love" one Another...and the Darned sure don't "Love" You...or me...or anyone else who keeps snakes.

This whole thread is a classic case of a person wanting to keep animals to fill a personal need or void in ones life....And the Needs of the animals in question fall by the wayside.

On a side note......

I've kept Corns, Bp's and Kingsnakes.... I've never once seen scale rot.

In closing....

I'm not saying I'm better than you....or better at keeping snakes....or that your a Horrible keeper, Just that those of us who have responded to this thread saw the red-flag. Co-habbed Snakes, suffering some form of disease.

Did you honestly think you wouldn't ruffle a few feathers?

Separate the Snakes.

keep'em clean, & Dry.

Far fewer issues.

My two-cents.... for what it's worth.

[Palmetto Reptiles]

Want to see some stressed out snakes? Take a look at the racks of adults who get a breath of fresh air only when their containers pulled out for feeding or cleaning. How about snakes being brumated for over a year just because their offspring are not wanted or needed and doing so lightens the work load and lowers the feeding bill? How about snakes kept in deli cups for a year? How about the stress some venders' snakes endure going from show to show? Those who know me also know that I am not referring to all breeders and vendors. But the items mentioned above were either witnessed by myself or described to me by the "guilty" parties.

I guess what really bothers me is that someone like the OP can be ripped to shreds for being cruel, the entire country the Netherlands can be deemed unfit to own snakes (OK. That may be stretching the issue a little.), and when someone who boasts of hatching thousands of snakes posts a photo it is invariably followed by dozens of ooohs and ahhhs, congratulations, and pm's arranging purchases. How can people who hold their animals in such high regard and feel so strongly about animal cruelty have such double standards? If these were dogs such large breeding operations would be called puppy mills and their operators would be shunned if not arrested. At the very least their animals would be taken away from them. Probably the result of a phone call from one of us.

What about the large number of "by-product" snakes that weren't fortunate enough to inherit the target genetics? Does anyone really think these thousands of snakes get placed in quality homes? Does anyone know that many of these baby corn snakes end up as food items for coral snakes, king snakes, cobras, and other animals?

I have snakes in racks. I check every container every day. If you have any doubts about my husbandry practices shoot an email to the only person I can think of whose opinion might carry some weight with some of you; Jeff Galewood, Sr. of JMG Reptiles. I have wholesaled hatchlings, and quite frankly it is bothersome to me. It is not, however, as bothersome as the fact that I see so many people exhibit double standards. If you care about snakes as much as you claim to start recognizing that the breeders some you hold in such high regard as not good stewards of their animals. Look beyond the fact that someone produces the coolest corns on the planet this year and hold them accountable to the same standards you hold someone to who cohabs two snakes and encounters a problem.

[Lyreiania]

To the OP....

In your Original post.... you describe the enclosure as being 6 ft long By 18 Inches wide. Can I assume the Height dimension is either 18 or 24 inches?

Now...I'm Not sure what you paid for said enclosure.....But i'm rather Positive you could have bought a 10 tub rack system with belly heat...for $440.00 Shipped from Animal Plastics. Add an Extra $100.00 for the 10 tubs, and your total...is $540.00.

I'm Almost positive...unless you built the enclosure....the price tag was comparable to the rack system i described.

My point is....

They don't Miss one another...they don't "Love" one Another...and the Darned sure don't "Love" You...or me...or anyone else who keeps snakes.

This whole thread is a classic case of a person wanting to keep animals to fill a personal need or void in ones life....And the Needs of the animals in question fall by the wayside.

On a side note......

I've kept Corns, Bp's and Kingsnakes.... I've never once seen scale rot.

In closing....

I'm not saying I'm better than you....or better at keeping snakes....or that your a Horrible keeper, Just that those of us who have responded to this thread saw the red-flag. Co-habbed Snakes, suffering some form of disease.

Did you honestly think you wouldn't ruffle a few feathers?

Separate the Snakes.

keep'em clean, & Dry.

Far fewer issues.

My two-cents.... for what it's worth.

Hi...height of cage is 20 inches. Custom made. But even that cost far less than $540. And, I would be appalled to have my snakes in what looked like tupperware containers, snakes unable even to look outside. Snakes unable to stretch out full length. I am not about quantity of racks, but of the quality of their environment. I would not tell you though that you are awful, wrong to do such, as I well know that perceptions differ. I think my snakes need to be able to stretch out fully, to climb and to bask.

And no, how could I imagine that cohabiting snakes would set off this war of the words? I could understand the anger and outrage had I said I ran a few snakes through the kitchen blender; I could understand the ire if I said I swung them by the tail like a lasso. This response I am getting is far far out of proportion to the imagined provocation.

I do agree with you, in that they should be kept clean and dry, and I endeavor to do so. But, even with the best of intent to do so, accidents do happen...like a spilled / overflowed water bowl. That reflects on my water basin, not on cohabitation. I dont see a reason I feel is valid to separate the animals, and to deny them the spacious home to which they are accustomed. I read your concerns. I do not agree.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

If the area is so spacious, then why would dividing it be too small? If that space is "plenty big enough for two" then why couldn't it be divided? It's still the same space, it just gives each their own secure area.

[Lyreiania]

Lyre, answer this please.

It is obvious to anyone reading this thread that what I said is true. You really don't care about them. You say you know the pros and cons....well please enlighten me. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE?? I seem to have missed that part.

Its obvious to anyone reading the thread that I maintain my snakes in great surroundings and conditions, and care about them deeply....or I would not be posting on a snake forum regarding them. Its obvious that your arrogant condescension is very misplaced. Of course I care about them; they are beloved pets. Its absurd to believe I do not because I dont house them as you desire. Benefits to the snake are that the snakes have a large spacious cage...big benefit to them. They have multiple hides, climbing apparatus. They are gentler, tamer, and I believe that is due to cohabitation, as I mentioned upthread. I think their increased gentleness and tameness indicates where they are benefits them...as they are not aggressive, striking, or acting as unhappy displeased animals...as they were when in quarantine.

You are not required to agree, you are not required to approve. But do try to drop the insults...they do not help your so called position.

[Chip]

Would you mind answering the question, then? Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE??

[Lyreiania]

If the area is so spacious, then why would dividing it be too small? If that space is "plenty big enough for two" then why couldn't it be divided? It's still the same space, it just gives each their own secure area.

Let us go over some basic math. The snakes are 5 to 6 feet long. That translates to 60- 72 inch long animals. Their cage is 72 inches long. If I divided their cage in half, half of 72 is 36. They would then have only 36 inches by 18 inches to stretch out in. THAT would be an enclosure that is FAR too small for a 6 foot...or even a 5 foot long animal. I know some people think its OK to have a snake in a small cramped enclosure. I am not one of them. Diving the cage horizontally instead would only give them 9 inches in width, not enough space even if they had the 72 inches in length.

So, the cage works just fine as it is...for two. Its plenty big enough for two as it is; dividing it and the subsequent loss of space...as its not the same space if they lose access to half of it... would make it too small for one.

[beautifullywild77]

I did find some articles on stress with snakes. Some of them are about stress of male snakes during mating season. (This was just a quick search on google, I am sure there are even more in depth studies on snakes and stress)
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Stress+in+snakes&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=CvxUUa-hOq7viQLTooH4CQ&ved=0CC8QgQMwAA

Here are a couple of articles I found that list the signs of stress in reptiles and how stress can cause ill health.
http://www.anapsid.org/signs.html This article even states to take in consideration if there are multiple inhabitants.
http://www.netvet.co.uk/snakes/stress.htm This one states how easy it is to miss the signs of stress in snakes.
How stress gets missed

Many owners have expectations of the behaviour of their snake which means that they miss the early signs which, if addressed, can prevent a lot of distress for the animal. Because snakes do not ‘snack’ on their food and need feeding three times a day like a cat or dog, it is easy to miss growing anorexia. This is often one of the earliest signs. Weight loss is also not such an easy symptom to spot, especially in a small snake which may only weigh a pound or less. Two ounces is over ten percent of its body weight and so is a significant loss, but is less than the weight of a small hen’s egg, so very difficult to notice when handling the snake. The other main symptom of stress in a snake is increased lethargy. Some snakes are quite active but many are slow moving and in the case of nocturnal snakes this sign can be missed altogether. Stress can result in death, as the snake stops eating and will become prone to other conditions as it weakens, so it really pays to watch out for it.

Prevention of stress

Stress is easily prevented by providing the correct conditions for the snake, taking thought and time to make sure that it has what it needs and mainly to provide what the snake wants, not what you as an owner wants. If your snake happens to be a species which prefers to live quietly, eating in a hide and sleeping all day, then you must let it.

Also, I did find this article on scale rot
What is scale rot?
Scale rot is a bacterial infection often found in captive reptiles, especially snakes. It is caused by the conditions being too moist and also by improper husbandry practices involving failure to properly clean the animal’s enclosure. Basically they slither around in their own excrement and come down with an infection on their stomachs. Which shouldn’t surprise anyone.
http://pet-snakes.com/scale-rot-pet-snakes

Personally, I have seen the stress and illness that can happen to corn snakes when they are cohabbed for a prolonged period of time. (They were kept in a rather large, multilevel viv). I took them in and gave them each their own vivs. It makes all the difference in the world.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Pretty sure if half the space is not big enough for one, then twice that isn't big enough for two. Just y'know, basic math.

[starsevol]

Lyre, I know you think you are doing well with them, but you are not. Space is not really a huge issue with snakes. Sure, they shouldnt be crammed into something teeny, but they also don't need to completely stretch out either. Most snakes seem to feel secure in a closer surrounding.

As far as water causing scale rot, like I said before, 3 of my males...no make that 4 are wallowing in their water bowls, as in emptying them allll over their bins. I try to keep up but they keep doing it. I check them in the morning, go to work, and come home and their bins are swimming pools.

They have never ever had scale rot, nor have any of my animals.

Honestly, those bins you seem to think are so horrible are really the best things, as long as they are clean and heated and dry.

One of the very best breeders (and people) I know has been weighing in on this. Her snakes are cherished pets, and her babies are the biggest and healthiest you will ever find. If you don't listen to me, please please listen to Nanci. When I die I want to come back as one of her snakes.

[BloodyBaroness]

Its obvious to anyone reading the thread that I maintain my snakes in great surroundings and conditions, and care about them deeply....or I would not be posting on a snake forum regarding them. Its obvious that your arrogant condescension is very misplaced. Of course I care about them; they are beloved pets.

If you care about them so much, then please tell me how co habbing benefits the snake?


Pretty sure if half the space is not big enough for one, then twice that isn't big enough for two. Just y'know, basic math.

Can't argue with that at all.

If the space is not large enough to divide, it is not big enough to cohab in.

[starsevol]

Pretty sure if half the space is not big enough for one, then twice that isn't big enough for two. Just y'know, basic math.

That's what I was trying to say before! Thank you!

[Lyreiania]

Of course half the space is not large enough for one...but the whole tank is just fine for two. Its really simple. They can stretch out in the whole tank, they cant in half the space. I should think that would be obvious; I explained the math behind it. As for how a large cage benefits an animal, well, I should think that should be apparent as well. I explained that one also, upthread. I am happy none of your snakes have had scale rot. Maybe mine were on the damp for far longer than I realized. No one is perfect, after all. In the well over 10 years...actually come to think of it, its about 15 years... I have had snakes, all happily cohabiting, this is the 2nd bout of it. My snakes have lived for many many years, and I have no personal evidence their housing has shortened their life span.

"Space is not a huge issue for snakes". I am seeing the opposite; my snakes do better in larger enclosures. One of my special needs crew is eating far better now that he is in a 55 gallon rather than the 20 long that everyone says is just fine for an adult corn/rat. (He is a rosy rat snake; hes been with me 8 years). I see my guys climb, slither, bask on their "loft". They do indeed seem to enjoy the large space provided.

As for Nanci, she has given me great advice before on a few topics. I do not doubt her wisdom or font of knowledge in many areas. But, I am not in agreement with her on this one issue.

[Nanci]

As far as water causing scale rot, like I said before, 3 of my males...no make that 4 are wallowing in their water bowls, as in emptying them allll over their bins. I try to keep up but they keep doing it. I check them in the morning, go to work, and come home and their bins are swimming pools.


I solved this problem by putting the water bowl (large, heavy ceramic dog bowl) in a 9" deli. I cut two holes in the lid; one in the center, which goes over the bowl, and one out at the side, which goes over the open space. The snake can wallow and spill all he wants, and the substrate stays dry.

(Replacing the bowl with a smaller bowl just makes the snake run out of water faster- you still need to change the aspen within hours of a water bowl fill).

[starsevol]

I solved this problem by putting the water bowl (large, heavy ceramic dog bowl) in a 9" deli. I cut two holes in the lid; one in the center, which goes over the bowl, and one out at the side, which goes over the open space. The snake can wallow and spill all he wants, and the substrate stays dry.

(Replacing the bowl with a smaller bowl just makes the snake run out of water faster- you still need to change the aspen within hours of a water bowl fill).

Thanks you Nanci, from me, Stark, Mojo, Twix and Syko. They will be singing "How Dry I am" in no time!!

And sorry Lyre, but if half is too small for one, then it is too small for 2 whether they can stretch out or not. They need to not even see each other at all. Simple math. If you are short of space, have you considered building up and not out? I mean can you put another cage the same size on top of the one you have now? That would be really good for them. And I would bet cash money that if you did that and seperated them, you would never ever see scale rot ever again....

[Chip]

Let us go over some basic math.

One more time. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE??

[Isoldael]

One more time. Please tell me how co habbing benefits the SNAKE??

She has told you repeatedly that her snakes are calmer and seem a lot more relaxed when cohabbed. That, to her, is a benefit to the snake. I agree that an environment in which a snake seems to be less stressed might actually benefit the animal.

I know I'm going to hear the "OMG BUT YOU CANT SEE STRESS" argument again, but that's the whole point here - we don't KNOW what makes a snake happy and what stresses them out, so all we can go by is their behaviour.

As for the "solitary in the wild" argument - Sure. They are solitary in the wild. That is usually related to limited food resources - each snake needs a large habitat to hunt and capture enough prey to sustain itself. You will notice that in areas where food sources are abundant, even solitary animals will often share habitats without any issues whatsoever. I know that doesn't mean that we should definitely cohabit our snakes, but it does prove that solitary animals in the wild apparently aren't always bothered by sharing space with others.

@Nanci - I got replies from most of the people I contacted, and most of them don't want to be dragged into a discussion they're not a part of (and especially a very heated one). To be honest, I don't blame them. Barbara, however, allowed me to use her name here. I know certain people here have already had some arguments with her, but among all dutch keepers I know in person, she's quite respected :)

[BloodyBaroness]

Yeah, Babara did herself no favors when she posted pictures of her enclosures. She also admitted what she did to her boas was wrong. That's not going to help the cause much. There is a thread where all of that is posted right out in the public view. She has also openly admitted that she cohabs for her benefit, not the animals.

Barbara listened to us when were telling her about her boas being stressed and did the right thing by separating them. Barbara and I have clashed on more than one occasion, but I have a lot of respect for her because she did the right thing and stopped cohabbing the stressed out boas.

That's what we are telling this OP to do. Her males are displaying stress behaviors. She needs to separate them. If a well respected dutch keeper can see that and do the right thing, this OP can as well.

[Nanci]

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

[BloodyBaroness]

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

True.

That is also publicly posted by Barbara herself on the forums.

I have NO ISSUE with cohabbing, if it is done properly. So far, almost none of the people posting about it do it correctly, Barbara included.

[Isoldael]

That's what we are telling this OP to do. Her males are displaying stress behaviors. She needs to separate them. If a well respected dutch keeper can see that and do the right thing, this OP can as well.

The thing is, nothing I see written in any of the OPs posts proves that the snakes are under stress. So they are trying to have sex with each other. That is not necessarily stress related (as I pointed out earlier, I have a male snake who was trying to mate with a piece of wood). Yes, they have scale rot, but that's not necessarily stress related. All you need for scale rot are the unfortunate conditions of moist and some bacteria. Of course there are things that could make a snake more susceptible (high overall humidity, low environmental temperatures, poor nutrition, thermal burns and injured skin (1)), but you can't conclude just from the fact that she's cohabbing her snakes and they have scale rot that it MUST be the cohabbing causing the scale rot. You can speculate, but it's FAR from a certainty.

1) Dermatology in Reptiles, Emily Hoppmann, DVMb, Heather Wilson Barron, DVM, Dip. ABVP (Avian)a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1557506307001516)

[Isoldael]

Did Barbara happen to mention how her cohabbing led to inadvertant death by cannibalism? I didn't think so.

You must be referring to a different case than the one I heard of - the only case of her that I heard of was where she was breeding a king snake to a corn and - stupidly - left the room while they were at it. She knows that was a grave mistake, but that doesn't have much to do with cohabbing. If it was another case, please correct me.

[Tara80]

Want to see some stressed out snakes? Take a look at the racks of adults who get a breath of fresh air only when their containers pulled out for feeding or cleaning. How about snakes being brumated for over a year just because their offspring are not wanted or needed and doing so lightens the work load and lowers the feeding bill? How about snakes kept in deli cups for a year? How about the stress some venders' snakes endure going from show to show? Those who know me also know that I am not referring to all breeders and vendors. But the items mentioned above were either witnessed by myself or described to me by the "guilty" parties.

I guess what really bothers me is that someone like the OP can be ripped to shreds for being cruel, the entire country the Netherlands can be deemed unfit to own snakes (OK. That may be stretching the issue a little.), and when someone who boasts of hatching thousands of snakes posts a photo it is invariably followed by dozens of ooohs and ahhhs, congratulations, and pm's arranging purchases. How can people who hold their animals in such high regard and feel so strongly about animal cruelty have such double standards? If these were dogs such large breeding operations would be called puppy mills and their operators would be shunned if not arrested. At the very least their animals would be taken away from them. Probably the result of a phone call from one of us.

What about the large number of "by-product" snakes that weren't fortunate enough to inherit the target genetics? Does anyone really think these thousands of snakes get placed in quality homes? Does anyone know that many of these baby corn snakes end up as food items for coral snakes, king snakes, cobras, and other animals?

I have snakes in racks. I check every container every day. If you have any doubts about my husbandry practices shoot an email to the only person I can think of whose opinion might carry some weight with some of you; Jeff Galewood, Sr. of JMG Reptiles. I have wholesaled hatchlings, and quite frankly it is bothersome to me. It is not, however, as bothersome as the fact that I see so many people exhibit double standards. If you care about snakes as much as you claim to start recognizing that the breeders some you hold in such high regard as not good stewards of their animals. Look beyond the fact that someone produces the coolest corns on the planet this year and hold them accountable to the same standards you hold someone to who cohabs two snakes and encounters a problem.



I would agree with this Jim* with the exception that most of us posting here, that I know of, don't do any of the above and also do not condone it. (NOTE, we are addressing people that are posting here on this thread)
although, there are people ON this forum who do.
I think the people posting here though go out of their way to make sure their snakes are living in the least stress free environment possible within captivity. I know I do.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

The piece of wood cannot be stressed by the attempted breeding. A living animal can be.

[Shiari]

. So they are trying to have sex with each other. That is not necessarily stress related (as I pointed out earlier, I have a male snake who was trying to mate with a piece of wood).

You don't think that would be stressful for the less dominant male? You think he *wants* to be chased and force to submit? They aren't mating because of stress, but the mating can/will *cause* stress.

[BloodyBaroness]

The thing is, nothing I see written in any of the OPs posts proves that the snakes are under stress.

You are the only one having a problem seeing it.

You must be referring to a different case than the one I heard of - the only case of her that I heard of was where she was breeding a king snake to a corn and - stupidly - left the room while they were at it. She knows that was a grave mistake, but that doesn't have much to do with cohabbing. If it was another case, please correct me.

That's not what she posted here.

I put a corn accidentally in a kingsnake vivs and the corn was eaten by the king.

[Isoldael]

You are the only one having a problem seeing it.



That's not what she posted here.

Ah, that was close to what I rembered, my bad. In any case, it was a mistake - mistakes happen. This was not an intentional cohabbing, it was an honest mistake. At the time, I know that Barbara moved some snakes around from certain vivs into other vivs for more optimal housing, and that might have caused confusion.

Compare that to my situation, for instance. I only have 5 snakes, each of which always stay in the same viv. There is absolutely no chance for me to mix any of that up. Furthermore, I only keep corn snakes, which also reduces the risk (as kings are much more likely to eat another species, which btw, isn't cannibalism).

[BloodyBaroness]

Ah, that was close to what I rembered, my bad. In any case, it was a mistake - mistakes happen. This was not an intentional cohabbing, it was an honest mistake. At the time, I know that Barbara moved some snakes around from certain vivs into other vivs for more optimal housing, and that might have caused confusion.


But if you were only putting one snake back in each viv, it would have never happened.

[Isoldael]

You don't think that would be stressful for the less dominant male? You think he *wants* to be chased and force to submit? They aren't mating because of stress, but the mating can/will *cause* stress.

Perhaps, perhaps not. In such a case, breeding your snakes would be "animal cruelty" and "killing your snakes" too, because... what if the female doesn't want to be chased and forced to submit?

The first post doesn't state any frequency of the behaviour either. If they are constantly doing it, I agree, it may cause a certain degree of stress. On the other hand, if they are like my Jake, they will only try to get on top of each other once and then be done with it for another year. Would like to get further information about this from the OP.

[Nanci]

When a person keeping snakes singly opens a viv to remove the snake for whatever reason does so, she leaves the viv open. The snake can then be put back in its correct viv, or accidentally the viv of another snake who is also out. In either scenario, then snake is not harmed. If snakes are being cohabbed, one has to close the viv to prevent the other snake(s) from escaping. When one puts the snake back, if it goes in the wrong viv, death may result.

A simple mistake, yes. Tell that to the snake that lost its life. Sorry, fella!!

[Nanci]

(as kings are much more likely to eat another species, which btw, isn't cannibalism).

Ophidiophagia. My bad!

[beautifullywild77]

I posted articles which do explain stress in snakes and other reptiles. One even states to take in consideration if their is multiple inhabitants. You might want to read them.

Just because the enclosure is big enough for the snakes to stretch out length wise by no means it is large enough to house two adult corns without causing stress. Do each snake have its very own hide on both the warm and cool side?

Like others have stated, Barbra was not the best person to add up for an example for successful cohabbing. Mistakes do happen, I agree. However, that was a careless mistake that could of been avoided. We have seen her enclosures and by no means are they large enough to house more than one corn. Here is the link to the boa thread. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124837&highlight=Boa%27s+enclosure.

The members that have posted in this thread truly care about the animals and only want the best for them. It has been proven time and again that cohabbing corn snakes does cause stress and health issues, the signs of stress can be hidden until it is too late. Again I refer to the articles I posted.


And I could of sworn someone said they were only going to stick to the photo gallery of this forum because it wasn't moderator heavy :shrugs:

[WestCoast_Redneck]

I've read this entire thread and it's just become a broken record of bashing and blaming. I think the point has been made. After the second page it was apparent the OP was adamant on maintaining their husbandry beliefs yet everyone continued to carry on.
I'm new to this forum, but instead of jumping down peoples throats, I think if they clearly disagree with advice given, that should be the end of it. For new members, reading thread after thread of fighting & arguing over every topic from breeding to genetics to husbandry - It becomes quite embarrassing to read knowing new members come to these forums and see adults acting like 13 year old's ganging up on one another.

This forum is beneficial in many, many ways. However, not everyone will agree upon the same topics. It must be said that you can provide advice, but if it's not taken - can the topic just be dropped? Instead of ganging up on someone knowing it won't change anything, can you just provide your advice and leave it at that? Its obvious there are certain cliques formed on this site, and I for one am afraid to speak up regarding certain topics in fear of being attacked by one after the other.

Sorry, I just cringe reading this. It's embarrassing. This site consists entirely of adults. Parents. I truly love this forum, it's the only one I've ever actually registered with, knowing I need as much help as possible to provide my cornsnakes with the best care possible. I love coming here to learn more and more everyday. I believe that's the purpose of this forum.

[beautifullywild77]

I asked my teenager why the thought people would cohab snakes other than when breeding? He thought about it for a minute and said "Because they are lazy. However, there is no good reason to cohab".

WC_Redneck, I believe people get passionate because they TRULY want what is best for the animals involved. Do some people come across harsh? Yes. However, it is only after the other party doesn't give any good reason in doing something that could cause such harm to their beloved pets.

[Chip]

WCR, if you'll notice, there is a trend of the same poster having the last word over and over and maintaining she's right and they are wrong. If she would quit quoting and responding to each post, it would have died a long time ago.

[Isoldael]

When a person keeping snakes singly opens a viv to remove the snake for whatever reason does so, she leaves the viv open. The snake can then be put back in its correct viv, or accidentally the viv of another snake who is also out. In either scenario, then snake is not harmed. If snakes are being cohabbed, one has to close the viv to prevent the other snake(s) from escaping. When one puts the snake back, if it goes in the wrong viv, death may result.

A simple mistake, yes. Tell that to the snake that lost its life. Sorry, fella!!

Actually, I close the vivs behind me as well, one snake or not. I do this for two reasons. 1) Keeping the habit of ALWAYS closing a viv behind me helps me to make sure I never forget to close it when the snake is actually inside. 2) I like to keep the ambient temperature in the viv up. That way, both the cold end and the hot end stay at what they should be. The ambient temperature in the room where I keep my snakes is a bit lower than that, and that's why I keep the vivs closed as much as possible.

Putting the snake back in the wrong viv isn't caused by cohabbing, it's caused by failing to check which viv you're putting your snake back into. Not everyone needs to keep their doors open to remember where the snake is supposed to go. Some apparently do. That's not a reason to demonize cohabbing though.

[Shiari]

Perhaps, perhaps not. In such a case, breeding your snakes would be "animal cruelty" and "killing your snakes" too, because... what if the female doesn't want to be chased and forced to submit?


See, here's a funny thing. When I pair my snakes together I *watch* them. If the female is unreceptive, I remove her within minutes of putting the two snakes together.

So if the female doesn't want to breed.... I don't force her to put up with a stressful situation.

Did the idea of separating them really not come to mind?

[BloodyBaroness]

WCR so, if you know something is wrong and something is suffering, you won't stand up and fight to help it?

You think we do this because we are a "clique"? Sorry, but that's not a correct or fair assessment.

The reason we are still replying to the OP is because we have best long term well being of her snakes at heart. If we did not care, do you think we would waste our time with replies?

We are a group of passionate and dedicated keepers that strive to help others give the best care possible to their snakes.

Everyone is free to speak an opinion. No one should be afraid to, just know that people might not 100% agree, but different opinions provoke discussion.

WCR, if you'll notice, there is a trend of the same poster having the last word over and over and maintaining she's right and they are wrong. If she would quit quoting and responding to each post, it would have died a long time ago.

BINGO!

[Isoldael]

WCR, if you'll notice, there is a trend of the same poster having the last word over and over and maintaining she's right and they are wrong. If she would quit quoting and responding to each post, it would have died a long time ago.

When people attack someone else personally for the choices she makes (while having considered all the pros and cons) and she gets ganged up upon, I do feel I should say something, yes. If people then continue to reply and make statements that are either pure opinion and not based on anything or simply untrue, then yes, I feel the need to reply to that as well. That's what I meant on my other thread by being dragged into a discussion. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but that's what happened here. You also can't blame me alone for keeping this thread alive - all my replies have been getting responses as well.

Anyway, WestCoat_Redneck, this is exactly what I don't like about this forum. The only reason I still dare to state my opinion at times is because I feel certain things need to be said to keep this forum from becoming one big bash-fest just because the majority of the active posters share a certain opinion.

On topic: is there any change in the snakes' conditions so far? Hope they're getting better!

[Nanci]

Actually, I close the vivs behind me as well, one snake or not. I do this for two reasons. 1) Keeping the habit of ALWAYS closing a viv behind me helps me to make sure I never forget to close it when the snake is actually inside. 2) I like to keep the ambient temperature in the viv up. That way, both the cold end and the hot end stay at what they should be. The ambient temperature in the room where I keep my snakes is a bit lower than that, and that's why I keep the vivs closed as much as possible.

Putting the snake back in the wrong viv isn't caused by cohabbing, it's caused by failing to check which viv you're putting your snake back into. Not everyone needs to keep their doors open to remember where the snake is supposed to go. Some apparently do. That's not a reason to demonize cohabbing though.

See, that wouldn't work for me, because while the snake is out, I remove and scrub the water bowl, and spot clean the viv. But I don't ever have the problem of forgetting to close the viv when the snake is inside.

[Isoldael]

See, that wouldn't work for me, because while the snake is out, I remove and scrub the water bowl, and spot clean the viv. But I don't ever have the problem of forgetting to close the viv when the snake is inside.

Yea, this is just personal preference and what works best for each person. I tend to take the snake out (e.g. for feeding), close the viv, put them in a seperate rub with food, return to the viv, do spot cleaning and take the water bowl out, close the viv behind me again, clean water bowl and fill, open viv again to replace water, close the viv, return to snake to see if it's fed and if so, replace the snake in the viv and close it behind me. I know it seems like a big hassle with all the opening and closing, but that's how it works best for me ^^

[BloodyBaroness]

...this is exactly what I don't like about this forum. The only reason I still dare to state my opinion at times is because I feel certain things need to be said to keep this forum from becoming one big bash-fest just because the majority of the active posters share a certain opinion.


If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to be here or to reply...

Maybe we share a certain opinion because it's a good one that is widely supported by the reptile keeping community. :shrugs: Ever thought about that?

[Isoldael]

If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to be here or to reply...

Maybe we share a certain opinion because it's a good one that is widely supported by the reptile keeping community. :shrugs: Ever thought about that?

Or maybe the people who don't share your opinion are just afraid to post about that. I know I've asked people in my facebook group to reply here, but they hate the atmosphere here and don't feel like getting bashed for what they feel is a pointless discussion where neither side will back down.

Can't we just agree that BOTH points of view have a wide range of supporters and leave it at that? I'm sure everyone here does what they think is best for their snakes. No one would intentionally harm their snakes as they are all our beloved pets.

[Shiari]

Isoldael, want to comment on my reply to you?

[BloodyBaroness]

Or maybe the people who don't share your opinion are just afraid to post about that. I know I've asked people in my facebook group to reply here, but they hate the atmosphere here and don't feel like getting bashed for what they feel is a pointless discussion where neither side will back down.

Can't we just agree that BOTH points of view have a wide range of supporters and leave it at that? I'm sure everyone here does what they think is best for their snakes. No one would intentionally harm their snakes as they are all our beloved pets.

Well, that's is their opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong. If you don't like something, don't participate. Not everyone is going to like every site or community. You find somewhere that you do fit and that you do like.

Freedom of speech does not mean you get to say whatever you want without consequences. It simply means the people can't stop you from saying it. It also means OTHERS get to say what THEY think about your words.

The cohab argument will go on until the end of time. Both sides will probably never see eye to eye on it.

[Tara80]

OK Isoldael, here:

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/Pantherophis_guttatus/#F79D7720-C3A6-453D-85DA-9079AFC88DA3

Lots of scientific research for you to read.

NOT OPINION.

cornsnakes are solitary creatures. They DO NOT want to interact, in nature, except during breeding season. ESPECIALLY MALES.

Here's a quote:

When male corn snakes encounter each other, they may perform displays of dominance, especially during mating season. A male snake shows domination by a series of spastic movements and restricting the movement of the weaker male. (Ernst and Barbour, 1989)

It's NOT our opinion, it's what the snakes prefer.


OH look. another quote. from different research:

Corn snakes communicate in the same ways as most other species of snake. During the mating season, males give off pheromones that are detected by females. Communication is rare outside of mating season, as they are solitary animals. (Mattison, 2007)

[Tara80]

THUS this is why we are so passionate about this in the reptile keeping industry.

WE love our pets. Most of us will try our best to make them happy (there are people who do exactly what Jim* outlined but that's definitely not the majority).
If you don't want to do this for your snake, so-be-it.
But stop defending it.

Many of us here live with these snakes in their backyard, and know and understand what is best for them.

[Chip]

You also can't blame me alone for keeping this thread alive - all my replies have been getting responses as well.

Which you then respond to. Every time. Without answering the question asked, and asserting that advice given is "either pure opinion and not based on anything or simply untrue." Which is BS. I'm tapping out now, b/c I have more productive things to do today. I will leave with what I require from anyone that buys a snake from me: "Foremost, the snake must have a clean dry enclosure of its own with proper temperatures and fresh water." I like for the front and side of an enclosure to at least equal the length of the snake being kept, but I would compromise that over cohabbing.

[BloodyBaroness]

Here, here Chip.

Heck, I'm still waiting for the answer to "how does cohabbing benefit the SNAKE?"

We have provided more than enough proof it does not.

If I can see some solid proof from the cohabbers, that outline the benefits to the animal, maybe people will start to change their opinions. So far, that proof never surfaces in any cohab thread, ever. Even the best among them admit they do it for themselves and not the snakes. How is that being fair to the animals?

[Shiari]

I'd like a response to my reply to the "it's cruel then to breed" allegation. There've been a couple replies by Isodael since then, but none have touched on my counter.

[Nanci]

Or maybe the people who don't share your opinion are just afraid to post about that. I know I've asked people in my facebook group to reply here, but they hate the atmosphere here and don't feel like getting bashed for what they feel is a pointless discussion where neither side will back down.

Can't we just agree that BOTH points of view have a wide range of supporters and leave it at that? I'm sure everyone here does what they think is best for their snakes. No one would intentionally harm their snakes as they are all our beloved pets.

Birds of a feather flock together. I wouldn't say that cohabitation has a wide range of supporters. I would say it's quite rare in the US and Canada, and somewhat common in Europe.

The problem with your statement which is bolded is, I'm sure that is true, yet it doesn't prevent harm to the animals. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Nanci]

I'd like a response to my reply to the "it's cruel then to breed" allegation. There've been a couple replies by Isodael since then, but none have touched on my counter.

If the answer won't support her argument, she ignores the question.

[rich333]

Nanci....

More rep coming your way....

[BloodyBaroness]

If the answer won't support her argument, she ignores the question.

Yep.

Here are the words directly from Barbara that back up the argument that cohabbing is done strictly for the keepers benefit.

I never said I co-hab for the animals, I do it to be able to be keep more animals.

If the cohab side would provide proof that there is a benefit to the animals, people might stop attacking them so vehemently. As it stands right now, even the most "respected" cohabbers admit they do it if for themselves and not the animals.

How does that fit with this?


I'm sure everyone here does what they think is best for their snakes. No one would intentionally harm their snakes as they are all our beloved pets.

Oh, it does not.

[airenlow]

Isoldael, do you have any pics of your cohab enclosures?

[rich333]

OMG!!!! LOL!!!!


Rep coming your way good sir!

[Lennycorn]

Just got to say...thanks Josh!! :)

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Megan beat me to it. My girl Parkay was receptive this year, but Cayenne was not at first. I saw she was trying to get away from Siri and removed her within minutes of them being together. They have since mated successfully, but on Cayenne's terms.

[WestCoast_Redneck]

WCR so, if you know something is wrong and something is suffering, you won't stand up and fight to help it?

We are a group of passionate and dedicated keepers that strive to help others give the best care possible to their snakes.

Everyone is free to speak an opinion. No one should be afraid to, just know that people might not 100% agree, but different opinions provoke discussion.


Provoke discussion is one thing, but this is straight out attacking someone. Like I said, you've posted your opinion...Long ago. But yet several of you carried on, poking fun and egging the OP and any supporters on relentlessly. It's utterly embarrassing. I appreciate all advice and all opinions, but you continued to pick apart anything said and just gang up and attack like a pack of pitbulls. As mentioned, everyone should be able to speak their opinion - but this was carried on to personally attack.
I've only been a part of this forum for a few short months, and this happens quite often. Maybe it happens on all forums, but I will be honest - this was painful to read. It's no longer advise or opinions - It's adults acting like school yard bullies.

I teach my kids to be kind and have respect for everyone of all backgrounds/religions/beliefs. To be accepting. This is not the case here. You stated your difference in opinions and shared your advice with the OP. The odds were obviously in favor of those against cohabbing, clearly. It could have just been dropped....Was it? No. It has nothing to do with being passionate about snake care. When did you realize the OP wasn't going to change their opinion? I'm not a genius, but I picked up on it pretty quick.

Allow different opinions. Allow different perspectives. Appreciate your way, your care, your husbandry and care you provide your snakes. There is NO need to attack another person....For any reason.

Value your morals. You can't change the world....You CAN change your behavior.
I'm sure I will get slammed, I just would like to see more understanding towards this community. I may have no value on this forum and this community as a member, however I still feel I can stand up against such behavior and hope it opens at least someones perception of how they may provide advice to others in the future.

[BloodyBaroness]

To each his own.

I am perfectly okay with who I am and my morals.

I am not perfectly okay with someone doing harm to their pets. I am not perfectly okay with bad/misinformation being spread as the gospel.

We don't have to see eye to eye, but we are all free to express how we feel about something. You see it one way, other people see it differently, all different views all different perspectives.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

I can't rep Autumn again; someone get her for me?

[BloodyBaroness]

I will full on admit some people have tossed out heavy handed phrases, but tough love and real talk has worked more than once in these types of threads.

I would rather know I did everything in my power to make sure good information is out there than sit back and let it roll like nothing.

Everyone is different. Seeing animals mistreated is never acceptable.

[DragonsDenSerpents]

This forum is downright tame compared to a Catahoula forum I'm on. That forum has a warning on it stating that the folks contributing are extremely passionate about the breed and will not filter their opinions or responses. Makes this forum look like summer camp!

[Shiari]

This forum's also a lot nicer/kinder than the UK reptile forum. Man, the pile-ons that happen over there are kinda scary.

[Nanci]

gang up and attack like a pack of pitbulls.

As a pitbull owner, I find this offensive. I'm putting a smiley, :-). but I really _do_ find this stereotype offensive.

http://vimeo.com/53622294

[AliCat37]

I got to page five, and got super tired of reading about "domesticated snakes", especially when it was pointed out that dogs are domestic, and cats are well on their way to becoming domestic. And because my feathers are ruffled, feral house cats do live in social colonies. their ancestor the african wild cat does not. dogs have been kept by people for at least 31k years, and as such, have devolved to fit our lifestyle. Snakes absolutely are not domestic and it is our job as keepers to make them as comfortable as possible as we force them, as wild animals, to live in our homes and tolerate handling. Sure a nice sized cage might make one comfortable, but definitely not two. And especially not two males. I have to agree with the fellow members here, these snakes are highly stressed out. It's pretty simple to divide your cage in half and then they both can relax. Just grab some styrofoam and make it look pretty then put it in the middle and seal up the edges with some expanding foam. Works very well, that's how my cages are divided.

[Nanci]

Value your morals. You can't change the world....You CAN change your behavior.


Yes, we _can_ change some people's poor husbandry through education. I can't tell you how many people have been warned of the dangers of feeding live, said that's okay, I'll take the risk, I can keep my snake safe, who later come back after their snake is injured and say, you were right, my snake got hurt, now what do I do. Same thing with cohabbing and accidental clutches.

My morals say, if I can effect a change for one animal, it's worth hurting someone's pride, if that's what it takes.

I'm pretty sick of the state of the world right now, where everyone is a winner, where no one can have hurt feelings, where even if you suck, you still get to pass. The era of entitlement.

I've addressed my thoughts on the topic you've brought up in this sticky (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113863), though. I'm sure no one takes the time to read it, however.

[WestCoast_Redneck]

Okay, Okay..As I said, this is my first ever participation with online forums. So I'm obviously naive with regards to how forums go. Sounds like this may be the norm. Lets be honest, this sounds so silly that so many people flock to forums just to bicker and fight religiously over their 'beliefs', trying to extenuate their behavior with the excuse that others do it so it's okay they do it too.

I'm extremely thankful to this forum and of course it's members for all the advice and help my kids and I have received. It's just hard to watch some get attacked so relentlessly. I would like to become a contributing member here but then I stumble across some horrible fights and non-stop bickering, I question what I'll be supporting.
This thread in particular quickly turned into a joke between some as they downright teased and laughed at others simply because of a difference in opinion - Regardless of who's right and who's wrong - It's ridiculous.I don't intend to discredit passionate debates in any way, I just don't believe you need to set the bar at such extremes of what's acceptable 'passion' and what's obviously useless banter...don't tell me you just couldn't state your opinion and leave it at that.

Colleen

[WestCoast_Redneck]

I'm a pitbull owner myself, and your right that's incorrect..My dog wouldn't hurt anyone. I should have said a pack of feral dogs.

I'm not saying you should sugar coat it. I admit I'm naive. I understand you guys get annoyed arguing the same thing, over and over and over....But it get's carried away and I'm being honest with my opinion. I can handle the banter myself, doesn't change the fact it's not easy to see others be attacked.

[Nanci]

It happens when people say, repeatedly, I don't care what the facts, history, anecdotal evidence shows, I _know_ better. When people say they will knowingly risk harm to their animal.

[beautifullywild77]

I will say this, not everyone attacked or belittled the OP. I never called names. I tried to point out facts, which were totally ignored by the OP and her supporter.

[BloodyBaroness]

It happens when people say, repeatedly, I don't care what the facts, history, anecdotal evidence shows, I _know_ better. When people say they will knowingly risk harm to their animal.

Exactly. When people knowing disregard their animal's safety, that's when it's time for tough love or alternate tactics.

Not all threads escalate, but when clearly there is something very wrong going, people are going to stand up for what they believe. No one will get "attacked," as you say, for no good reason. This thread started out calm, then blatant disregard for the animals well being was displayed by the OP so things got heated.

I will sleep better at night knowing I gave it my all to get through to this person, rather than leave it at "well you know that's wrong, but imma go over here and sit on my thumbs because someone might get butt hurt."

[Tara80]

Lets be honest, this sounds so silly that so many people flock to forums just to bicker and fight religiously over their 'beliefs', trying to extenuate their behavior with the excuse that others do it so it's okay they do it too.


For the record, again, please scroll back up and see that this isn't a belief - it's proven through research.
Please read it, if that's what you're going to claim.

What some consider animal abuse isn't something people take lightly.

I DO, however, agree that once it's been said, there's no use repeating the same thing if someone has already made the statement that they "know the pros and cons and will be doing it anyway".
It's just a crappy thing to know an animal is stressed and to not be able to do anything about it.

[starsevol]

WCN, I am sorry you feel that way.
Knowing what her snakes are going through, every minute of every single day literally makes me feel sick. They are suffering and she refuses to do one simple thing to fix it. So, yeah, I am going to speak up.

If I saw someone throwing a kitten against a wall, or kicking a puppy I would do the same. Same thing to me. A human beings widdle feerings take second place to something like that.

[Shiverdam]

I just read through this whole thread and I find it somewhat humorous that the co-habbers have neglected to reply for a little while. Did they decide to carry on in their ignorance or accept defeat? We may never know.

[Pitbullgirl16]

I just read through this whole thread and I find it somewhat humorous that the co-habbers have neglected to reply for a little while. Did they decide to carry on in their ignorance or accept defeat? We may never know.

Or accept defeat while carrying on in their ignorance. Close minded people with ignorant beliefs that don't want to change will remain just that... :headbang:

[Shiverdam]

Or accept defeat while carrying on in their ignorance. Close minded people with ignorant beliefs that don't want to change will remain just that... :headbang:

Oh well. It's their fault when they find two dead snakes a few months or a couple years from now. If they want their animals to be dying slowly and stressed out beyond belief, so be it.