Would you keep it alive??

[mike17l]

This poll is in reference to this thread (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72826) about a disfigured snake.

So the question is, if you hatched out a disfigured and kinked animal that ate, would you keep it alive? Please make sure you indicate the number of clutches you produce per year.



There is no place to edit a poll
Please Note: "Yes, a few (20-25)" should read "Yes, a few (10-25)"

[ghosthousecorns]

Tough call. But I voted yes, 9 or less.
I would give it away to someone that just wanted a pet. I would not sell or keep it. And if there were no takers? I don't know. But space is tight here.
Editing to add. but I don't feel it's my place or anybody else's to judge what another person would do in this situation.

[RobbiesCornField]

If it ate, defecated, and shed without issues, and there were no behavioral problems, yes. I would keep it alive. And then I agree with Jen. Give it to someone who wants a pet.

[El Jefe]

We know my vote from the linked thread.... ;)

100+ clutches a year....

[wade]

I voted yes 26+

Like Jen, my space has a limit. I don't know that I would keep it for myself and I would not sell it to anyone that was going to breed it. I would find a home for it as a pet.

That is on the conditions that it was healthy enough to eat and survive. If it was going to be a problem snake that was eventually going to die, I would hasten that end.

[michael couture]

it looks like only one "no" vote so far, I wonder who's vote that is.
I'm cramped for space and am hardly bill gates, so I think it's a moral issue not a financial issue.
We should'nt justify our opinions with a poll either, 99% could vote to kill an otherwise healthy deformed snake, and I would disagree with all of them.

[diamondlil]

A poll won't justify anyone's opinions, it's just a chance to express them.
I'll admit to having fought to keep Lil alive, deciding I can never chance breeding her and possibly producing a whole clutch of problem children, then helping to get a kinked non-feeding pet on the road to recovery as a favour for someone else, on the grounds he only wanted his pet to have a chance at survival.
But out of my grand total of 3 clutches this year, I didn't hesitate to euthanise 2 kinked hatchlings, and if Annie's deformed pippies had managed to hatch I'd have done the same.
This is my choice as a breeder, to only raise the healthiest of my hatchlings and not knowingly raise corns with defective genes.

[dwyn127]

I did keep a kinked snake and as I type am in the process of giving it a new home, so "Yes"

[bitsy]

No. I don't have room for another snake, so if kept alive, I'd have to rehome it.

If I rehomed it, I could never be sure that:
a) it wouldn't be used to breed in future, even if the new owner gave me a guarantee,
b) the owner would always have the financial ability to get vet help with any associated health problems that might develop as it grows.

[Blue Apple Herps]

I voted no.

[Jenstar]

As a non-breeder I voted yes... I think it depends on the situation and how badly deformed the little one is, and if it will affect it's life in the future...

[Chip]

I would honestly put it down if it were mine unless I could give it away as a pet. I quickly got to the point where I couldn't find ANYone else to give surplus corns to. I'm curious, how does the number of clutches produced impact what one would do with a deformed animal?

[mike17l]

Give it to someone who wants a pet.

I voted yes 26+

Like Jen, my space has a limit. I don't know that I would keep it for myself and I would not sell it to anyone that was going to breed it. I would find a home for it as a pet.

That is on the conditions that it was healthy enough to eat and survive. If it was going to be a problem snake that was eventually going to die, I would hasten that end.


I did keep a kinked snake and as I type am in the process of giving it a new home, so "Yes"

No. I don't have room for another snake, so if kept alive, I'd have to rehome it.

If I rehomed it, I could never be sure that:
a) it wouldn't be used to breed in future, even if the new owner gave me a guarantee,
b) the owner would always have the financial ability to get vet help with any associated health problems that might develop as it grows.



But out of my grand total of 3 clutches this year, I didn't hesitate to euthanise 2 kinked hatchlings, and if Annie's deformed pippies had managed to hatch I'd have done the same.
This is my choice as a breeder, to only raise the healthiest of my hatchlings and not knowingly raise corns with defective genes.

So for the majority of post up to this point, most everyone has said they would "rehome" it. As the breeder, is there really any difference between this and humanely euthanizing it? Seriously, my reason for the thread was to find out who was willing to take the responsibility of keeping this animal from birth to death. Jeff Mohr it seems is the only person who is willing to do this, most everyone else would "rehome" the animal, "passing the buck," so to say. Agreed?

I would honestly put it down if it were mine unless I could give it away as a pet. I quickly got to the point where I couldn't find ANYone else to give surplus corns to. I'm curious, how does the number of clutches produced impact what one would do with a deformed animal?

The number of clutches/number of animals directly impacts the space and finances available for someone to put into a "lesser" animal. Personally, I do not have the time or space to put into a kinked/deformed baby, all of mine are humanely euthanized.


I received this via PM, so there is no name.
I actually think you are a strong person for being able to PTS (put to sleep) kinked or deformed but viable animals that you produce. There can't possibly be enough pet homes out there for all of them. It will be very tough for me to do that, when I breed.
Another great reason to euthanize deformed hatchlings. I do not do it, but I would not doubt it if there are some breeders that euthanize many normal perfectly healthy animals. Possible reasons: they do not want competition if the animals are "project animals" and/or the market is already flooded.

Is there really a difference when it comes down to it between this practice and wholesaling neonates out of the egg. Seriously how many wholesaled neonates make it? I dont know but I doubt it is more than 75% prolly more like 50% I would assume that it is the same odds for pet store snakes.


Just some thoughts for yall to think about.

[Drizzt80]

I didn't actually vote, but the "kinked" part of the equation is what would have me euthanize immediately. If it was eyeless or some other "benign" deformity, I'd give it a chance. 23 clutches this year. 14 last year.

D80

[michael couture]

I would keep it, because again it's the breeders RESPONSIBILITY to take the best care of any reptile that is'nt suffering.

[tom e]

I voted no (less than 9 is actually 1 clutch EVER for me) but I have to clarify that further. If we were talking about a very rare mutation like a two headed snake or a snake with one or no eyes etc, I would keep it. I can't think of a 'nice' way to say that, I'm sure some people will think I'm mean. I just find the 'freaks' fascinating. Nature is facsinating and such an animal is a real lesson that way. I wouldn't sell them, I definitely would not breed them... I also wouldn't keep it alive if it seemed to suffer.
But I wouldn't keep every little kinked guy, no.

[Nanci]

I admit it, I'm the PM. I haven't bred my snakes yet, so I have no idea what I would do as a breeder. Probably give CPR to conjoined headless twins- I don't know. I do recognize, though, that especially for a large breeder there are limits in who you can actually find a pet home for. One of the reasons I chose higher-end morphs for my two projects is because I worry even about my ability to find homes for normals or other more common morphs. I'm not so worried about finding homes for opal stripes.

I _have_ a severely kinked snake. I didn't buy her that way- she developed the kinks as she grew. Of course, she is the most entertaining, active, out-going yearling I have. She is out, doing something, all the time, every evening. If a snake can be said to "enjoy life," she is the one who most actively displays that. She sheds normally and eats vigorously and keeps up in growth with a similarly-sized normal snake.

Still- I didn't plan for or want a snake with such a handicap. I wouldn't have adopted her as such, though I wouldn't have faulted someone else for doing so. But now that I "know" her and am attached to her and invested in her care, I have no interest in euthing her, although her condition has been discussed with my vet who will do that if/when we decide she has a poor quality of life. She is now my pet, and I will love and cherish her as long as she is with me, and will not keep her hanging on if she suffers.

Maybe you're wondering who she is. She has had very limited, well-cropped photoshoots, because I've been guiltily hiding her away. Now, with so many showing support of keeping kinked but viable snakes as PETS, definitely not breeding stock, I may feature her in a real photoshoot.

So, I admire Jeff and others for the stance that a one-eyed snake, or a minimally kinked snake deserves a chance either with the breeder with room or in a nice pet home. I _love_ it that Jeff feels like this: "And what will one get in return? To many, the intrinsic living value of a snake (normal, albino, deformed or otherwise) may outweigh any monetary value. I'm sure there are lots of people on this site that love their corn and don't love it less because it is a normal or albino or snow.

By the shear fact that I've kept this corn illustrates that he has a purpose in my collection. In fact, I actually get great joy in watching him grow and am fascinated that he lived when so many others would have dumped him in the freezer or the kingsnake cage because his monetary value would be less then the first pinkie he ate."

But it takes a strong person to _not_ keep deformed babies. I am very strongly opposed to culling healthy but not-desireable common morphs. I don't consider this situation to be comparable. I guess that's why I sent a PM to Mike- I'm ambivalent. I, as a future breeder, want to value life, but not preserve those with serious deformities. Along the continuity from one-eyed, no-eyed, invisible kink, visible but low kink, major proximal kink, many kinks, kink so severe snake cannot move normally or is prevented from eating/shedding, everyone has to draw a line, pick their place- who will they keep themselves, who will they find a pet home for, who will they sell at a reduced price, who will they give away as a "bonus" freebie, who will they cull. I don't think I can know where my place is till I actually have to experience it, but I suspect that I would attempt to find nice pet homes for minimally kinked snakes or eyeless snakes. I'd have to find the strength to PTS the ones worse off.

[Em Wright]

I admit it, I'm the PM. I haven't bred my snakes yet, so I have no idea what I would do as a breeder. Probably give CPR to conjoined headless twins- I don't know. I do recognize, though, that especially for a large breeder there are limits in who you can actually find a pet home for. One of the reasons I chose higher-end morphs for my two projects is because I worry even about my ability to find homes for normals or other more common morphs. I'm not so worried about finding homes for opal stripes.

I _have_ a severely kinked snake. I didn't buy her that way- she developed the kinks as she grew. Of course, she is the most entertaining, active, out-going yearling I have. She is out, doing something, all the time, every evening. If a snake can be said to "enjoy life," she is the one who most actively displays that. She sheds normally and eats vigorously and keeps up in growth with a similarly-sized normal snake.

Still- I didn't plan for or want a snake with such a handicap. I wouldn't have adopted her as such, though I wouldn't have faulted someone else for doing so. But now that I "know" her and am attached to her and invested in her care, I have no interest in euthing her, although her condition has been discussed with my vet who will do that if/when we decide she has a poor quality of life. She is now my pet, and I will love and cherish her as long as she is with me, and will not keep her hanging on if she suffers.

Maybe you're wondering who she is. She has had very limited, well-cropped photoshoots, because I've been guiltily hiding her away. Now, with so many showing support of keeping kinked but viable snakes as PETS, definitely not breeding stock, I may feature her in a real photoshoot.

So, I admire Jeff and others for the stance that a one-eyed snake, or a minimally kinked snake deserves a chance either with the breeder with room or in a nice pet home. I _love_ it that Jeff feels like this: "And what will one get in return? To many, the intrinsic living value of a snake (normal, albino, deformed or otherwise) may outweigh any monetary value. I'm sure there are lots of people on this site that love their corn and don't love it less because it is a normal or albino or snow.

By the shear fact that I've kept this corn illustrates that he has a purpose in my collection. In fact, I actually get great joy in watching him grow and am fascinated that he lived when so many others would have dumped him in the freezer or the kingsnake cage because his monetary value would be less then the first pinkie he ate."

But it takes a strong person to _not_ keep deformed babies. I am very strongly opposed to culling healthy but not-desireable common morphs. I don't consider this situation to be comparable. I guess that's why I sent a PM to Mike- I'm ambivalent. I, as a future breeder, want to value life, but not preserve those with serious deformities. Along the continuity from one-eyed, no-eyed, invisible kink, visible but low kink, major proximal kink, many kinks, kink so severe snake cannot move normally or is prevented from eating/shedding, everyone has to draw a line, pick their place- who will they keep themselves, who will they find a pet home for, who will they sell at a reduced price, who will they give away as a "bonus" freebie, who will they cull. I don't think I can know where my place is till I actually have to experience it, but I suspect that I would attempt to find nice pet homes for minimally kinked snakes or eyeless snakes. I'd have to find the strength to PTS the ones worse off.

That is very well said Nanci! I didn't vote, simply because I do not breed and becuase I feel similarly to Nanci. I can't really know my position until I experience it, though I know if the animal is in pain or will be unable to have the proper measure of life, I would not allow it to suffer.

*hugs to Nanci* Good luck with your special snake! :)

[michael couture]

I suppose I just feel so strongly about caring for a snake that's deformed, but otherwise healthy and not suffering because I was born with a very rare muscular disease, not to sound like I'm pittying myself but I was never supposed to walk and I was supposed to live out a life in bed, and had it not been for a dedicated single mother who knows if I would had overcome my disability.
I learned to walk at the age of 3 and now carry a normal life, other than the fact I have very low muscle mass and I can't run or jump, and I feel that other people build larger barriers for me than my disease and had I not been born who I was I would not have the knowledge I have.
And although snakes maybe seen as totally different, I feel like it's the same thing, I love reptiles because of the deep history and ecology of our planets creatures, and a snake may have been born deformed but it is so much more amazing in that regard, that the species has survived and evolved so much in the wild and changed so much in captivity, yet a one eyed snake has the same role of carrying on the species as any other.
To me money cannot be the factor to justify the means, because I am just as limited financially, and for space as alot of breeders and I still do not agree with "killing the freaks".
The great thing about reptiles is how we've formed enough as a society to try to care for them and understand them, and it's that constant understanding that fascinates me more than all of the money in the world, that through evolution a snake has been perfectly designed to adapt to millions of years of an ever changing world, and now it's the unusual color morphs that is the biggest reason for them surviving the human footprint, and on top of that a snake that was born with only one eye is happily thriving in captivity due to the care of someone who really cares about how sacred all life is.
Maybe it's too long of post, but I just thought I would share my full feelings to bring a better understanding of why I think it's important to not only care for these creatures, but to truly respect there place in evolution.

[Drizzt80]

I would keep it, because again it's the breeders RESPONSIBILITY to take the best care of any reptile that is'nt suffering.Please let me know what the visible signs of suffering are so I can add that to my knowledge base. :shrugs: You're telling me it's my responsibility to care for something that I can't (and I don't honestly believe you can either) identify. Our definitions of suffering just may be different. While I sympathize, empathize and care about your personal health and well being, I take offense to you comparing those human conditions to animals. Regardless of what PETA would like you to believe, WE as humans have very little idea of what animals are actually (not) feeling or (not) thinking.

D80

[Iguanagirl8662]

So for the majority of post up to this point, most everyone has said they would "rehome" it. As the breeder, is there really any difference between this and humanely euthanizing it? Seriously, my reason for the thread was to find out who was willing to take the responsibility of keeping this animal from birth to death. Jeff Mohr it seems is the only person who is willing to do this, most everyone else would "rehome" the animal, "passing the buck," so to say. Agreed?


I currently have a kinked corn snake, I did not hatch him, but I saw an add for him and I loved his color and look and did not care that he was kinked even if he may have problems eating and shed. Thankfully he had no problems if he did I would have euthanized him, but he didn't and is a great snake and I love him.

I understand both sides here and personally I would not euthanize it unless it did not eat and was suffering, but I'm not a breeder. I may breed in the future but I won't have many clutches unlike most breeders who have many clutches. I do understand breeders who would euthanize a deformed hatchling right away because they want to breed only the healthiest animals possible and not being able to spend the time or money dealing with a deformed snake, then having to find a home for it, which some one may end up breeding it.

This thread is very interesting to read and see what other breeders think about this.

[bitsy]

Originally Posted by bitsy
No. I don't have room for another snake, so if kept alive, I'd have to rehome it.

If I rehomed it, I could never be sure that:
a) it wouldn't be used to breed in future, even if the new owner gave me a guarantee,
b) the owner would always have the financial ability to get vet help with any associated health problems that might develop as it grows.



.....So for the majority of post up to this point, most everyone has said they would "rehome" it.

For the record Michael, those were the reasons that I would euthanase the snake myself, rather than rehome. I would NOT rehome it.

[mike17l]

For the record Michael, those were the reasons that I would euthanase the snake myself, rather than rehome. I would NOT rehome it.

Oh yeah, Im with ya.

[michael couture]

Please let me know what the visible signs of suffering are so I can add that to my knowledge base. :shrugs: You're telling me it's my responsibility to care for something that I can't (and I don't honestly believe you can either) identify. Our definitions of suffering just may be different. While I sympathize, empathize and care about your personal health and well being, I take offense to you comparing those human conditions to animals. Regardless of what PETA would like you to believe, WE as humans have very little idea of what animals are actually (not) feeling or (not) thinking.

D80My view has nothing to do with peta, I'm not sure why you would say that as to say that my caring for animals is some fluffy pipe dream to make myself feel better. And how could you possibly take offense to my comparison, I was simply giving a testament to all life to be able to survive even through human destruction, and natures deformities, and yes I do think, better yet I know that reptiles think and feel, I have spent my entire life with them, and as an example I have a snake that is only attached to me, he is so calm with me and he even squirms with my twin brother who knows very much the same teqniques to handling him, so that is just one proof of rational thinking, and no offense but it seems like alot of people treat captive bred animals as life they created so they can take it away like it's more just fashionable jewelry that moves without feeling or thinking.
To anybody in here that may feel similair to me, I would reccomend looking at www.carrollstudiogallery.com, it's not a plug but the site is my very intelligent grandfather's site, it's new so info may be brief but his books represent decades upon decades of field studies, the type of work that no scientist in the world can gain knowledge from in a lab, and he is a very smart and normal rational person, don't make assumptions because he spends alot of his time in wetlands, he is also an incredible artist but people all over the world follow his work, and one of time's people of the year who has also dedicated his time to help save the earths reptiles due to the impact most of us have on the environment, I'm not trying to sound preachy but I think people need to look back at the history of reptiles and view them as amazing wonders, and not just some new found "mink coat" trade.

[Drizzt80]

I'm glad you feel so strongly about the personification of animals. I'm not going to debate the issue with you. Good luck. Next time, please don't impose an arbitrary set of responsibilities on me based on your set of opinions. Your beliefs about animal feelings and thoughts are just that, opinion.

D80

[Em Wright]

I've been giving this some thought after reading some more opinions and whatnot. I believe that we are responsible for the animals in our care, we need to make sure they have everything they need. Food, water, appropriate bedding, etc. I also believe we have a responsibility to end their lives if they are in pain or have no quality of life.

If an animal is deformed and has no quality of life it is more humane to euthanize it than to allow it to live, even as a pet.

As for feeling... I know my dog has instinctual feelings. That doesn't put her on the level of being a human, but that doesn't mean I'm going to set her tail on fire because she can't feel the pain. Reptiles on the other hand I'm not so sure. Just a few weeks ago my dog went missing while we were out of town and thankfully she returned, but during the time she was gone my snake wasn't there to comfort me, not in the way a dog comes and licks your face or a cat sits on your lap purring. :shrugs:

On the other hand, there's something about a three-legged dog that most people can't resist. :p But if a dog with three legs can still run and play, eat, sleep, etc without difficulties and has a loving home where it is expected to do nothing more than live a happy, comfortable life, why end its existance? A deformed snake capable of feeding, shedding, etc shouldn't be any different providing he/she also has a home where they can be cared for properly.

But really I think this is one of those issues that each person has to weigh themselves and decide for themselves what is right and wrong. I also believe it is a case by case decision (at least for me) and not something to be blanketed over every deformed reptile. It really just depends on the circumstances. :)

[michael couture]

I'm glad you feel so strongly about the personification of animals. I'm not going to debate the issue with you. Good luck. Next time, please don't impose an arbitrary set of responsibilities on me based on your set of opinions. Your beliefs about animal feelings and thoughts are just that, opinion.

D80Yes responsibilities are arbitrary, animals don't feel pain or deserve life only humans do, so tell me why then do you own pets? And how am I imposing my beliefs, I'm sharing them hence the thread was asking our different opinions and I gave mine, though you seem like a charming middle aged person too, I mean you are so open minded and clearly you are quite an intellectual.
I think it's good to assume animals are just mindless organisms that were put here for our self gain, because at the end of the day all that matters is how much money we can get off of these otherwise useless creatures, and we need people like you to educate us PETA having hippies about what animals are really here for, food, and monitary gain.
Thank you I have become enlightened and I appreciate you stopping me from a lifetime of caring about animals, that would have sucked, I mean now I can just listen to heavy metal and get drunk, forget responsibilities to our environment and society, I am now liberated from the burden of trying to grow as a person and educate myself, I'm comfortable right here in this chair dictating other people to be like me, now I can really do something with my life.

[Drizzt80]

And how am I imposing my beliefs,
The capitalized stressing of the word responsibility in this quote is you imposing your beliefs on me and every other breeder that read your post.I would keep it, because again it's the breeders RESPONSIBILITY to take the best care of any reptile that is'nt suffering.
As for the rest of your blather, you obviously didn't read, or understand, my posts. Did you know that according to some, tomatoes scream when you cut them. No BLT's for you then huh?! ;)

D80

[tricksterpup]

The capitalized stressing of the word responsibility in this quote is you imposing your beliefs on me and every other breeder that read your post.
I have imposed my beliefs on you and you loved it.

As for the rest of your blather, you obviously didn't read, or understand, my posts. Did you know that according to some, tomatoes scream when you cut them. No BLT's for you then huh?! ;)

D80

Actually that is the sole reason why i eat tomatoes. Nothing better than fresh screaming tomatoes for lunch.


But seriously, I am not a huge breeder but I would keep something like this around and then maybe hand it to a friend as a pet who would have no intentions of breeding it.
Cause you know some kid would love it. I am sure Jeff probably uses this snake for his hands on shows. I think it would be an interesting show to kids and to compare a healthy one.
The reason I say this, it may help kids to understand deformities in animals and in humans. If a child was born with one eye we would not kill it. So in a way an educational animal like this may help children to under stand and accept deformities a lot better.

[michael couture]

totally agreed trickster, I was simply saying the snake deserves a chance and would also make a great educational tool about how creatures have been able to survive in the worst of conditions.
And I'm completely done with posting in this thread, I'm not trying to get any converts and the idea of polling this just seems like people needing justification through other people agreeing. Whoever is just constantly commenting to my posts, you seriously have alot of insecurities because I never directed anything at anyone until you got your pants in a bunch.
But this makes me think no less of this forum or you, some people are on here to learn and to teach, and others are on here to have a dictatorship and criticize, but I have met so many wonderful helpful people from this site already and I will keep valuing the information.
And your constant assossiation of people who value the lives of animals to being soft or out of touch PETA loving hippies just shows your ignorance and most of your judgements probably do come from stereotypes, and I love how compared living creatures to tomatoes, brilliant, what I want to know is WHY DO YOU OWN PETS? if you think they have no purpose of their own other than what they can do for you, even science will prove you wrong one day and I hope you don't abuse your animals based on the fact that they "feel no pain".

[Drizzt80]

You still . . . obviously didn't read, or understand, my posts.

D80. . . and are making more ASSumptions than I ever did. :D Which is why I chose not to debate this issue with you.

A. You never described/defined/proved suffering for me.
B. You're putting a ton of words in my mouth.
C. You have no clue the point I was making as evidenced by your responses.

Again, good luck, and have a nice day.
D80

[michael couture]

there's no debate to be had, I have no hard feelings for your opinions so if I misunderstood your opinion I apologize, but it seems to me that you keep replying to my post with sarcastic comments insulting my opinions, I'm over it and I hope you are, honestly it is what it is, I never called anyone out look at my posts then look at your replies, I was sharing my beliefs and this thread was probably just asking for some form of argument, you live your life the way you want and I'll live mine, I really have no hard feelings and I hope the best for you, I just did'nt appreciate such rude replies.

[diamondlil]

Yes responsibilities are arbitrary, animals don't feel pain or deserve life only humans do, so tell me why then do you own pets? And how am I imposing my beliefs, I'm sharing them hence the thread was asking our different opinions and I gave mine, though you seem like a charming middle aged person too, I mean you are so open minded and clearly you are quite an intellectual.
I think it's good to assume animals are just mindless organisms that were put here for our self gain, because at the end of the day all that matters is how much money we can get off of these otherwise useless creatures, and we need people like you to educate us PETA having hippies about what animals are really here for, food, and monitary gain.
Thank you I have become enlightened and I appreciate you stopping me from a lifetime of caring about animals, that would have sucked, I mean now I can just listen to heavy metal and get drunk, forget responsibilities to our environment and society, I am now liberated from the burden of trying to grow as a person and educate myself, I'm comfortable right here in this chair dictating other people to be like me, now I can really do something with my life.
I'm sure there are heavy metal fans who love their pets!
Also, you may want to consider that on this forum, as could be expected, there will be a range of opinion and debate about any subject. And debating in a mature manner may be more productive than ranting. IMO (In other words, that's just my opinion, which I'm expressing on an open forum)

[Em Wright]

and I love how compared living creatures to tomatoes, brilliant, what I want to know is WHY DO YOU OWN PETS? if you think they have no purpose of their own other than what they can do for you, even science will prove you wrong one day and I hope you don't abuse your animals based on the fact that they "feel no pain".

I feel very strongly that Drizzt takes very good care of his animals. I purchased one of his hatchlings a couple months ago who is in excellent health and has a great temperment.

It's silly to think animals have the same level of thought and EMOTIONS as humans do. They don't think or debate things, they simply react according to their natural instinct. Does your snake love you and only you? No I don't percieve it as 'love' so much as familiarity. He is most comfortable with you than others, but that does not mean he FEELS love towards you. At least that is my opinion.

Animals are NOT humans. Animals are animals and have their own place in the scheme of things. To personificate a dog is wrong, because it is not a person. It can be your companion and share your life with you, but at the end of the day it is still a dog. It's the same with any pet. You may love it, but that doesn't make it the same as a human. Would you place your pet above your children? Of course not.

This doesn't mean I'm saying people can do whatever they want to their pets, because I really do not agree with animal abuse. Nor do I agree with the insanity that is PETA, for the record. I believe we should care for our pets, give them the things they need to live a healthy life, etc, but that doesn't mean my dog has her own place at the dinner table.





Okay, maybe she does... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Em4SKI/Eddy/Eddy_DiningOut.jpg) ;)

[Drizzt80]

Here's a little light reading for you mr couture. (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49429) :)

D80

[mike17l]

Here's a little light reading for you mr couture. (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49429) :)

D80

Light? ~400 posts aint light. I hadnt seen that thread before, but I think Ill have to do some light reading someday as it looks good. Thanks.

[michael couture]

I'm totally done with you guys trying to box me into a steryotype, and it's clear your misconstuing my words into saying that my snake loves me and he thinks like a human, my point was that my snake can associate the difference between me and others and acts consistently calmer in my grasp than other peoples just as one example of somewhat rationalizing.
You see PETA on TV and I agree that it's a money hungry organization that collects money for abused and neglected animals but never redistributes it to the animals in need, and it's to my point that you keep trying to make me seem as though I'm some airy non rational "tree hugging hippie" as you would probably label them.
I simply said It's our responsibility to care for all of the creatures we decide to have as pets or breeding stock, and in return Drizzt took offense so if he's a responsible breeder what made him so insecure.
Diamond you are right that it was wrong of me to say that heavy metal should be associated with careless people I was ignorantly assuming by Drizzt's picture that that was his type of music and that I should think just like him that's all, honestly no disrespect to anyone who listens to any type of music that helps them get through their day and I really mean that.
But I felt like I got the stamp of being some clueless free spirit who thinks animals are people in a different form, but ignorance never wins over ignorance because only ignorance can be the victor, but I just game my opinion and got basically harassed for it, that's why we just should'nt have opinion polls because debates are inevitable.
I also posted that if I was assuming things incorrectly I was apologetic, but I still got more replies that were accusatory, this debate is over and people can go on with their lives.
My first post was all that I had to say and sometimes people in forums are like little communist dictators that always tell you why you can't think that way, I'm an opened minded person but I get carried away when simple point of views become critiques of opinion, Drizzt you said I did'nt understand your point so please explain it, and I'm not trying to be sarcastic either but your first reply to me was how you took offense to me comparing human conditions with that of animals, and all I said was I can relate to having a disability that might be seen as life threatening but with time and care creatures with deformities live just as happy and healthy.
So please explain how I misunderstood you and we can go from there, I admit that when I feel under critical judgement I can be overcritcal myself but I felt I wasn't given a fair chance to explain myself either, so please no more critical assumptions, I apologize for my part so let's just move on.

[Nanci]

Michael, it's ok to have a debate. It happens from time to time here. Be glad this is a forum where threads don't get locked or vanish. As in real life, we don't all get along all of the time. If you have a commitment to this community, though, people recognize that, and everything blows over in a short time.

[Em Wright]

Unfortunately misinterpreting what someone is typing is highly possible. :shrugs: I don't know as anyone was trying to attack you, I know that wasn't my intent. If I offended you I apologize. *hugs*

[Drizzt80]

Drizzt . . . but your first reply to me was how you took offense to me comparing human conditions with that of animals,Further proof that you're not reading what I have typed . . .

My first response to you was this:
Please let me know what the visible signs of suffering are so I can add that to my knowledge base. :shrugs: You're telling me it's my responsibility to care for something that I can't (and I don't honestly believe you can either) identify. Our definitions of suffering just may be different. While I sympathize, empathize and care about your personal health and well being, I take offense to you comparing those human conditions to animals. Regardless of what PETA would like you to believe, WE as humans have very little idea of what animals are actually (not) feeling or (not) thinking.

D80The bolded part was the important part. Something of which you haven't responded to other than putting words in my mouth.

Add to that this post which, if you had read it, you should have gotten the picture. (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=694996&postcount=28)

Enjoy.
D80

[TripleMoonsExotic]

It's our responsibility to care for all of the creatures we decide to have as pets or breeding stock

No, that's not what you said...

I would keep it, because again it's the breeders RESPONSIBILITY to take the best care of any reptile that is'nt suffering.

I 100% understand why Brent called you on it. When I read it, I thought immediately you were delusional and obviously had no experience of your own when it came to breeding (among other choice words that I won't post on a "family" forum).

While it is an owners responsibility to take care of their pets...It is a breeders responsibility to produce the highest quality, healthiest pets for those owners. I do not find a deformed snake to be high quality or healthy, do you?

Bitsy posted two of my top reasons for euthanasia over rehoming. Does it bother some people? Sure...But it's my choice and what I've found best that works for me so I don't have to worry about bad stock getting into uncaring/inexperienced hands.

[mike17l]

I euthanized a nonfeeding ultramel charcoal, how many of those are out there? And all because it refused to eat live or FT. I didn't want to keep and eventually breed snakes that don't eat.

[michael couture]

alright Drizzt now you are just acting way too immature, I still believe what I said was right but out of trying to be mature I apologized for any misunderstandings on my part and I hoped you might do the same, I swallowed my pride to try to let this just blow over but you keep trying to debate me, I can't tell you what suffering is nor did I try to, I just said that the snake in question was clearly not suffering and that to put him to sleep because paying to feed and house a snake that is too unnatractive to make a dime from was wrong, and that we should value the life of this snake and learn as well as educate others of how giving a chance to all creatures to thrive, especially ones in captivity that rely on us, can pay dividends that money can't buy.
And it was your PETA comment "regardless of what peta would like you to believe", that really bothered me, it seemed like a sorry attempt to discredit my opinion by linking it to a group of people that are blind to the ways of the world, and are publicly viewed as ignorant over the top and overprivelaged people that push their views for self gain.
Also that it takes away my personal feelings like I have no individuality other than to take an opinion from somebody else or another group to try to preach as my own, I try to educate myself and grow as a person daily and I hate to be forced into a box like somehow I don't try to look at every side before I give my opinion.
I tried to see your opinion and had you been easier going I may have understood it, but I really don't like leaving people with a bad impression of my character, even online, so I apologize again for my part in assuming things and sounding like a dictator, and I hope you can see where maybe you did the same, we're all people that share this country and play different roles in society and as long as you do what you think is right and don't act out in prejudice or ignorance then I will give you your respect.
Why just cast away people for having different view points, I respect that you feel so strongly but I don't respect your strong feelings trying to dismiss mine, I hope this can be the end of this PLEASE, and maybe in a different place, different time we can agree on something and help eachother to bring a better understanding, lesson learned so let's for now agree to disagree and move on.

[michael couture]

No, that's not what you said...



I 100% understand why Brent called you on it. When I read it, I thought immediately you were delusional and obviously had no experience of your own when it came to breeding (among other choice words that I won't post on a "family" forum).

While it is an owners responsibility to take care of their pets...It is a breeders responsibility to produce the highest quality, healthiest pets for those owners. I do not find a deformed snake to be high quality or healthy, do you?

Bitsy posted two of my top reasons for euthanasia over rehoming. Does it bother some people? Sure...But it's my choice and what I've found best that works for me so I don't have to worry about bad stock getting into uncaring/inexperienced hands.Honestly enough is enough, I really am trying to just be done with this I don't need to hear your "choice words" for simply sharing my opinion, does anyone agree that I'm being a little unfairly attacked here or do all of you have close personal ties, I tried to apologize for maybe assuming things but I still believe what I believe, and I really hate to be called delusional because trust me I've seen alot of what this world has to offer and I try my hardest to not be overcritical, but I apologize when I am, I think my two posts you quoted are one in the same, and I'm really not intimidated by having everyone calling me out like somehow I was way out of line, I think this thread was unfortunately desingned for this type of harassment and I like cheese so "SNAP" you got me, just keep trying to break my will because freedom of speech isn't meant for online forums.
I apologize up and down if someone felt I directly disrespected them, but I do not apologize if my opinion ruins your day, life is too short and I really wish every body on here peace and good health.

[Em Wright]

I euthanized a nonfeeding ultramel charcoal, how many of those are out there? And all because it refused to eat live or FT. I didn't want to keep and eventually breed snakes that don't eat.

If it's not eating wouldn't it eventually die from starvation anyway? :shrugs: I don't see anything wrong with this, at least you didn't sell it to someone under the pretenses that it would feed. That's just a sad fact of life.

Another good point that just occured to me is the natural way of the 'wild'. Survival of the fittest. If a snake in the wild is sick, deformed, etc I don't think the other snakes would stop and offer it a chance based on its problems. That sounds harsh to me, but that's just the way it is. :(

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Honestly enough is enough, I really am trying to just be done with this I don't need to hear your "choice words" for simply sharing my opinion

Tough. This is an open discussion forum and I have every right to respond to your posts as long as I do not violate the sites TOS.

I think this thread was unfortunately desingned for this type of harassment

It's hardly harassment. You're exaggerating.

Generally this topic has those that euthanize having to defend themselves against some extreme opposing opinions. I am actually pleasantly surprised how this topic is developing. :)

[michael couture]

it's harassment because I'm trying to relate to you and I keep being boxed in, I can see why you breeders have tough decisions to make and unfortunately that includes euthinasia, I don't think I was being extreme, but if I was my sincere apologies.
The topic of discussion was a snake with one eye, and whether he was worth time, money and resources to keep alive, even though he was a great eater and otherwise healthy so I said absolutely.
I'm starting to see your points in the sense that as a breeder you are only trying to produce the healthiest animals you can, but why do you have to kill a snake because of a superficial deformity, why not just give it a tub to live out it's life like all of the other snakes.
I can see if the snake was so badly deformed that it was only right to euthinize it, but we should really try to see the symbolism in destroying something because it's not quite perfect, I think a snake with one eye is as good of a pet as any and it has so much more character.
I thought that snake lovers were a rare breed of people that could look past all of the stigmas and see beauty in them, and it seems like now we only find them beautiful if we create them or if they are worth money, and we fail to see how amazing they really are, I mean having one eye in the scheme of things is'nt as weird as having no arms, legs, ears, noses or eyelids.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'm starting to see your points in the sense that as a breeder you are only trying to produce the healthiest animals you can, but why do you have to kill a snake because of a superficial deformity, why not just give it a tub to live out it's life like all of the other snakes.

Because large breeders can have several deformities pop out a year. It adds up quickly. I had to euthanize 3/4 a clutch of Lavender Motleys in 2007 because they were kinked. Do you really think I have room to keep 10-15 snakes (from one clutch, mind you) that are just going to just sit in a tub and eat?

Do I care that Jeff kept his one-eyed snake as a pet? Nope. That's his choice. I however will not be crucified or tried to make look bad because of my choices which have valid reasons.

[michael couture]

I wish people would'nt quote me in bold, because I think I had much more to say than that, most of which was not "crucifying" as you say, and I hardly think making the choice to euthanize a snake is martyrdom, and I guess by the responses even my trying to be reasonable is open for debate.
Clearly this is a lost cause and egos are running high, so I'll stop posting and hopefully someone can take something from what I've spent so much time typing, and realize that it's still worth it to give your opinion regardless of the outpouring of negative criticism.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

What I bolded is what I replied to, and instead of just clipping out that one section, I quoted the whole sentence. I answered a question...Did you not really want an answer to your question?

This statement though:

I thought that snake lovers were a rare breed of people that could look past all of the stigmas and see beauty in them, and it seems like now we only find them beautiful if we create them or if they are worth money, and we fail to see how amazing they really are, I mean having one eye in the scheme of things is'nt as weird as having no arms, legs, ears, noses or eyelids.

can be viewed as an unreasonable, uneducated response. Comments like that are why you are being questioned (not harassed) by breeders.

I also did not say you were crucifying me. so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

[michael couture]

how am I wrong or uneducated in that post, I've yet to see a single post of yours thats an opinion based on knowledge, and not just a quote in which you criticize someone elses opinion.
And "Comments like that are why you are being questioned (not harassed) by breeders"
is a far too broad of a statement, seeing I think there are plenty of breeders who would agree with me, and breeders just means you own snakes and sell there babies, so I would like to see what zooligists, environmentalists, and just plain snake enthusiasts think of your "educated" opinions.
If a healthy snake with one eye is "undesirable" to you, yet it shares 99.9% of all of the same genes as ones you keep, then how are you not selectively caring about snakes based on what morph it is or what is monitary value is.
I wonder sometimes what some "breeders" are in it for, and that's not to discredit "breeders" as a whole because I have met so many wonderful genuinely caring people that love their snakes and have just as much love for wild snakes as they do their prized morph.
I think this topic is just too one sided, because I feel that there are many people who feel just like I do, but they're just smart and did'nt post because of the unfortunate reprocussions of having an opinion that is'nt the majority.
But unlike some people I don't need an army to justify my opinion, and I am perfectly secure in the fact that my opinion has reasonable aspects, but I'm not sure what classifies this as a forum, because forum usually means all opinions are well represented and open for discussion without public discourse, and so far it seems like a dictatorship that really only allows for one person to be right, and the rest are "unreasonable and uneducated responses".
But seriously this is my last post under this thread, I won't even respond if you decide to sling some more mud, so knowing that it would be only for your ego that you're responding, I thank all of you for your time, and I give my full respect to 99% of you in this forum who have been so helpful and open minded.

[Em Wright]

I've been trying to stay out of this, but I'm getting a little irritated with the way you keep responding. If you're done with the thread then be done with it, how many times have you come back after posting 'I'm done here' essentially instead of just letting it go? Several. If you really don't want to argue/debate anymore then step away and let the topic return to the easy discussion it was before all the rucous. If not, then stop saying you're done when you obviously aren't. :awcrap:

As for other people not speaking up, maybe it's because they just don't want to fuel the fire. That's the way I see it. I enjoy debates, even ones that get mildly heated. But when one person is just being plain antagonistic it sort of ruins things. And not to sound rude but some of your comments do come off as offensive. In one breath you'll apologize and in the next make some snide remark that can easily be taken as an insult.

I'm not even a breeder and I feel that some of what you're saying is insulting. I do see your point, I just wish you could present it in a less antagonistic manner. I think then people would not 'attack' you as you've stated so many times. :-punch:

A lot of times it's not your opinion that people find insulting, it's the way you present your opinion. ;)

[diamondlil]

A little off-topic, Mr Couture, but what about feeder mice? What right do snake-keepers have to cause, directly or indirectly, the death of so many animals to feed their chosen pets. I keep a breeding colony, but every now and then my teenage boys will pick out an unusually coloured mouse to have as a pet, tame and care for. Pet mice (I have kept all manner of rodents well before I got my first snake) are great little characters, and have their own little personalities. I expect a lot of keepers of pet mice would think us reptile fans are totally evil for killing mice or for buying frozen mice that could have been lovely little pets.
I can appreciate that point of view without agreeing with it. How do you square your love of and respect for animals with what you feed your snake?

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Michael,

You can't seem to answer direct questions presented to you...and when your questions are answered you ignore the responses because you don't like the answers. That is being egotistical, not me disagreeing with you and pointing out your comments that can be viewed as insults. Having an opinion (even a differing opinion) does not make someone egotistical...Think that your opinion is the only right opinion when it's something of personal choice is egotistical.

I think perhaps you need to go through and actually read my posts. I'm not going to repeat myself on why I choose to cull deformities. Though I will quote myself since you're whining about the topic being "one-sided":

Generally this topic has those that euthanize having to defend themselves against some extreme opposing opinions. I am actually pleasantly surprised how this topic is developing. :)

Janine raises a very good point on the feeder mice. Mice are smarter then snakes...So by your reasoning, how can you "ethically" feed rodents to your snakes? Do you know there are some species of snake that primarily eat other snakes? Should they be left for dead because it's not kosher in some peoples opinions to cull deformed hatchlings?

[Drizzt80]

alright Drizzt now you are just acting way too immature, I still believe what I said was right but out of trying to be mature I apologized for any misunderstandings on my part and I hoped you might do the same, I swallowed my pride to try to let this just blow over but you keep trying to debate me,Immature?! Yer a funny guy. What do I have to apologize for?! I've asked for your definition of suffering so I can better understand and take care of my animals and you've responded with several long-winded posts of blather that put words in my mouth. And I'm debating you?! I just want an answer to my question . . which you still haven't given.

I can't tell you what suffering is nor did I try to, I just said that the snake in question was clearly not sufferingYou can't tell me what suffering is but you can tell me the snake in question was clearly not suffering . . . seriously? That's the best you've got??!! :shrugs: Don't you even recognize the contradiction?

I hate to be forced into a box like somehow I don't try to look at every side before I give my opinion.I forced you into a box by asking you a question . . . which you still haven't answered?

I tried to see your opinion and had you been easier going I may have understood it, Mine isn't an opinion . . . at least until you can show me the signs of suffering in an animal. Can you actually speak/communicate with animals to know their thoughts and feelings. No, you can't, so don't try to pretend. I repeat, again, please explain to me the signs of suffering so I can be sure not to euthenize the ones that aren't suffering (by your definition of course, but mine doesn't matter).

but I don't respect your strong feelings trying to dismiss mine,When did I dismiss your feelings?! I merely asked a question you've been unable to answer . . . which was my point, from the beginning.

I hope this can be the end of this PLEASE, and maybe in a different place, different time we can agree on something and help eachother to bring a better understanding, lesson learned so let's for now agree to disagree and move on.Actually, you stated several posts ago that you were done with this thread . . . I guess the desire to appear to be right is stronger than the desire to let it go. I've just wanted the answer to one single question that you haven't given because you can't. You also can't admit that forcing an arbitrary responsibility on me because I'm a breeder was a blatantly ignorant comment that in fact put me in a box of your design. You followed all of that up by calling me names, saying I only own animals for their monetary value, that I shouldn't own animals, that I listen to heavy metal music which is what makes me a drunk piece of $hit so on and so forth. Of course your response will be that you apologized for all of that, but you haven't apologized for the ignorant comment that I'm an irresponsible breeder for euthenizing animals that I think are suffering because they have crooked spines (crooked spines for God's sake!!!!) and don't eat.

Have a nice day! :D
D80

[jenneses]

I believe the breeder has the responsibility to offer quality and health to their prospective customers. Since snake breeding is a relatively new hobby, it is even more imperative that they do, otherwise we are looking at a lot of the problems that have evolved in mammalian breeding for specific looks (i.e. hip dysplasia in dogs, malocclusion in rabbits, and neurological disorders of cats) for the future.

I am proud of how the breeders here on this site have stepped up to take responsibility in making sure the stock of corn snakes and other reptile species are healthy and genetically sound. In doing so, they have most likely prevented future snakes from "suffering".:cheers:

If I felt Drizzt80 was not a caring and concerned breeder of corn snakes I would not have purchased the four hatchlings from him. Having read his posts on here, and read the BOI on Faunaclassifieds.com, I felt that he was an upstanding individual who cared about the quality of his breeding stock and the resulting offspring.

[michael couture]

Alright I know I said that I was done posting but you guys keep posting about me, I agree that on one hand I apologized and then kept debating but after I wrote posts but more people joined in and if it comes off as egotistical to respond that just know I'm not trying to be, I just like to explain myself because I feel my point was missed.
I thought about your feeder mice comment and you are so right about it, although if my cat has a mouse that can be saved I try my best to do so.
But from my understanding the question was about a snake with only one eye, not kinks or feeding issues, and the statement was whether the snake was worth time and money to keep alive although it was otherwise healthy and a great eater, and the link Drizzt put was about culling hybrid snakes that did'nt fit the breeders standard of attractive, and I just thought that was wrong because it seems like a complete disregard for the fact that they are still living creatures.
I totally agree with your mouse comment though and it's kind of a light bulb moment for me, but I was'nt trying to be preachy like some vegetarian peta member, I just felt it got heated on both sides and I did try to apologize for my assumptions hoping that others might as well, and should have left it at that, instead of having an ego to keep responding just because they didn't apologize as well, not that they should feel sorry for their opinions but maybe for their equal judgements of my opinion.
I want to leave this on a good note, and after thoroughly reading through all of my posts and replies to them, I will say that I honestly feel bad Drizzt if you feel that I offeneded you, I just felt a little overscrutinized as I'm sure you did as well.
So just to leave my thoughts about the initial question as soley my opinion that noone else has to agree with, I think you breeders have a tough job and I'm sure that pay is hardly so lucrative that you choose to kill snakes soley by appearence, but in the circumstance of a snake that is being culled because it does'nt fit a standard that mother nature has no control over, I think that's wrong, that's just my opinion and I'm not trying to start a debate again.
I will admit that this has been surprisingly educational and although you may have thought I was too ignorant to see your opinions, I'm not.
In fact some of your points have really made me respect and understand the complicated aspects of choosing top quality breeders, although I feel health issues should be the only reason for euthaniasia, but that's just my opinion, and I should have been more respectful stressing in my opinion earlier.
You guys have made me realize I have to be more open minded about everything before I make false judgements, and after seeing quite a few of your other posts I can see that you are a helpful and knowledgable breeder Drizzt, I just took some things personal and sometimes people need to just take a step back to see the bigger picture.
I really hate leaving anybody with a negative impression of my character, so please accept my apologies, and I hope you can understand that I just felt overly criticized, and I did'nt do the best job expressing my views without casting judgement.
I've learned alot from everyone here and hopefully that goes full circle, sometimes it takes arguments that aren't always pretty to learn something, but I will admit that I have learned alot, and I'm glad to see a so many points of view because that's how we grow as a society, take care everybody.

[Roy Munson]

This is a post I made in the "Culling 'side product'" thread that Brent/Drizzt80 linked. It's all I have to say and all I'll ever have to say about this topic:

I don't like culling. I don't like thawing out culled hatchlings and feeding them to kingsnakes. But I cull what I want, when I want, for whatever reason I want. I've culled snakes with minor kinks that refused their first couple of meals. Sure I could have kept working with them, but I didn't feel like it. And I dispose of the culls in whatever way I see fit. I've fed them to kings, I've thrown them into the bushes, and I've thrown them into the river-- whatever I felt like doing at the time. These are all my decisions to make, and only my opinions count in the matter. I don't care what anyone else thinks about my decisions. Most people do what they want anyway, and they keep quiet about it.

Would I keep a one-eyed, kinked snake alive? Maybe. If I felt like it. And if I didn't feel like it, I'd euthanize it. I euthanized a number of kinked hatchlings this season without even attempting to feed them. I didn't feel like it, so I didn't do it. Don't like it? Too bad.

[Em Wright]

I said it earlier on in this thread and I stand to it. There are certain things that people may face, such as culling, that may be wrong for one person, but okay for the next. I can't tell Roy he's evil for euthanising hatchlings for whatever reason he sees fit or tell someone else they're evil for allowing a minorly kinked snake to live. It's their decision, based upon what they feel to be right.

For the record I'm not saying you're evil Roy, just using your standpoint as an example. ;)

[Jevard]

yes ive produced 0 total... if its eating it has the will to survive why take that life from it because it looks different

[El Jefe]

I showed my one-eyed snake and look what happened? What have I done?



I'm sure I'll open a BIG can of worms when I breed it! Maybe I shouldn't post a thread for that one..... :sidestep:

[Nanci]

(some) People go crazy for one-eyed snakes!

[Em Wright]

(some) People go crazy for one-eyed snakes!


Could one-eyed snakes be the reptile equivalent to a three-legged dog? :laugh:

[michael couture]

I showed my one-eyed snake and look what happened? What have I done?



I'm sure I'll open a BIG can of worms when I breed it! Maybe I shouldn't post a thread for that one..... :sidestep:that's alright my eyeless corn snake is "kinky" so she'd love a mate that has similair deformities, it'll be like romeo and juliet for snakes because noone thinks they should be together

[wade]

Micheal, I'm glad to see you are still here.

[michael couture]

thanks, I still check the posts and I figured I said all that I needed to about the "politics" of it. So I thought I would try to leave on a good note with some humor, I appreciate your kind words.