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How do you feel about God.

Enjoy this thread everyone. I believe we all posted what we thought. It seems it is going in the direction of defense of one's beliefs instead of merely stating them. We all know that is where these always go downhill.

I'm out. Peace...
 
The bible cannot be used as proof of a deity. That is circular logic at its worst. Why do you receive the blessings of a god, but the starving believers around the world must die for lack of food despite their prayers? How can a deity be all loving, and all good, but still torture people for eternity? That shows I'm more merciful than a god. Also, a choice between "worship me or suffer unimaginable agony forever" is not a choice, anymore than "Give me your wallet or I kill your child" is a choice for free will.

Furthermore, the one making the extraordinary claim is the one who much provide proof, not the one doubting the claim.

Remember my first post in this thread? Even if there is a god, if it does not affect physical reality in any tangible way, shape, or form... it's existence doesn't make any difference anyway. If it has no effect... it's the same as it not existing at all.

According to christianity, steve jobs is currently being lit on fire. He was buddhist.
 
possum_minister said:
First of all atheism is not a religion. A religion would require a diety to be worshipped which atheists dont have.
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That depends on what your definition of religion is. For example, here's some definitions of religion I've found:

James Martineau: "Religion is the belief in an ever-living God, that is, in a Divine Mind and Will ruling the Universe and holding moral relations with mankind."

Friedrich Schleiermacher: "The essence of religion consists in the feeling of an absolute dependence."

Rudolf Otto: "Religion is that which grows out of, and gives expression to, experience of the holy in its various aspects."

Immanuel Kant: "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as divine commands."

John Dewey: "The religious is any activity pursued in behalf of an ideal end against obstacles and in spite of threats of personal loss because of its general and enduring value."

Paul Tillich: "Religion is the state of being grasped by an ultimate concern, a concern which qualifies all other concerns as preliminary and which itself contains the answer to the question of the meaning of our life."

John Hick: "Religion centers upon an awareness and response to a reality that transcends ourselves and our world whether the 'direction' of transcendence be beyond or within or both . . . this object is characterized more generally as a cosmic power, or more specifically as a personal God."

Clifford Geertz: "Religion is a system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in [people] by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic."

Sigmund Freud: "Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

Karl Marx: "Religion is the sign of the oppressed creature . . . It is the opium of the people . . . Religion is only the illusory sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself."

:uhoh:
 
That's one of the main things that I don't understand about Christianity--why does a "loving" god send good people to burn in hell forever? That doesn't make sense. If anyone would like to answer my question, please do, I am curious and I have never been able to get a straight answer on that. I mean, a high-schooler who donates money to charities, volunteers at animal rescues, and is an all-around nice person deserves to be burnt forever, just because she is an atheist? Yet the serial-rapist-killer-person who tortured and killed dozens of humans deserves to live an eternal life because s/he believes in a god?

No one answered my question about why only SOME Christians get good lives. And someone said something about violent Muslims, but lest you forget the Spanish Inquisition? Good, honest people were violently tortured and murdered because they were not Christians. And the CRUSADES!! The teachers always act like that was a good time in history because it spread Christianity, but the Crusades killed tons of people. I just Googled it, but I can't find any specific numbers. I would say around 4 million people, but I have seen estimates up to 9 million and as low as 2 million. That, in my opinion, is terrible!

Ugh. Now I'm all fired up. This will probably be my last post on this thread, but I may still partake in discussion if someone answers my questions. Thank you to all that responded, religious and non-religious alike!
 
My take on god.

"At least it's hot in hell and all my friends will be there with me."

I was raised Catholic by my bio mother and Anglican by my foster parents. No effect on me whatsoever because I decided that I want to be what I want, when I want with no fear of reprecussions in the afterlife. There is no proof Of said afterlife, I'm gonna either be cremated or buried in a hole and forgotten about, simple. You die, you're dead.

If there is a god I want proof. Until I get proof I will just assume humans are making the rules (after all we are the only species who view homosexuality as bad.... don't nag me for that the other 449 species have no problem with it). Life is not meant to be lived in a neat little box, if we are here on our own we should be free to experience anything we want however we want.

Schnebbles- There are extremists in every group in humanity, the only way they see an end to their "war" is to kill the problem, cause they don't want to sit and talk about things like rational beings. To them destruction is rational.

That is just my 2 cents until I have read the entire conversation. Don't let this turn into a wildfire guys. :)
 
anerybree said:
That's one of the main things that I don't understand about Christianity--why does a "loving" god send good people to burn in hell forever? That doesn't make sense. If anyone would like to answer my question, please do, I am curious and I have never been able to get a straight answer on that. I mean, a high-schooler who donates money to charities, volunteers at animal rescues, and is an all-around nice person deserves to be burnt forever, just because she is an atheist? Yet the serial-rapist-killer-person who tortured and killed dozens of humans deserves to live an eternal life because s/he believes in a god?

No one answered my question about why only SOME Christians get good lives. And someone said something about violent Muslims, but lest you forget the Spanish Inquisition? Good, honest people were violently tortured and murdered because they were not Christians. And the CRUSADES!! The teachers always act like that was a good time in history because it spread Christianity, but the Crusades killed tons of people. I just Googled it, but I can't find any specific numbers. I would say around 4 million people, but I have seen estimates up to 9 million and as low as 2 million. That, in my opinion, is terrible!


Whoo! You ask some hard questions! I'll try to answer you the way I see it, but It's going to take a day or so to get my thoughts together. Still interested in answers?
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Sorry, NikeMoth! Curiosity killed the cat...

Yes, of course I am! I do love learning about other cultures and religions.
 
I believe in the Holy Hand Grenade(you have to love Monty Python)
The-Holy-Hand-Grenade-monty-python-and-the-holy-grail-590945_1008_566.jpg
 
It always amuses me to see people mention the "leap of faith," "blind faith," etc that we Christians allegedly require. I have a B.S. in Environmental Science and a M.S. in Biology, both obtained at a secular university, and quite honestly I don't have the blind faith necessary to be an atheist/agnostic. The level of intellectual dishonesty in the evolutionary sciences is astounding, but obviously that's all swept under the rug-you have to actually do some research of your own before the dirty little academic secrets start piling up.

That's really the problem though. If you don't question what you're taught in school but blindly accept anything in the curriculum, you'd naturally end up on the side of mainstream evolutionary theory. They don't let you in on the fact that even evolutionists acknowledge the inaccuracy of Haeckl's famous depictions of embryos for example-they just continue to leave it in the textbooks to fleece yet another generation of students. I made a conscious effort to weigh the evidence and decide for myself which camp had the more compelling argument in college.

Thankfully I had some excellent resources at my disposal and it became abundantly clear that the best science supported creation and my faith is much stronger now in large part due to my scientific experience. I'm not saying all creation science is valid or that all evolutionary research is incorrect-there are good and bad examples on both sides. When it comes to piecing it all together in a continuous framework, I've got no doubt whatsoever which is correct though.

For anyone who is actually open-minded enough to look into some creation science for themselves instead of dismissing it based on preconceived notions, I'd highly recommend checking out Dr. Walt Brown's website on the Hydroplate Theory. The material may sound radically different from what you learned in school, but if you stick with it, you'll probably be surprised how nicely everything fits together in that framework and how well it explains many of our modern geological features.

I'll hop off the soapbox now. I hope I didn't offend anyone since these topics do tend to ruffle feathers. I just wanted to add a little scientific perspective from my personal experience.
 
I can't answer why God allows people (and animals) to be treated so horribly. It's human beings who do it and God allows it.

Nanci - what you said about switching faiths, I know! I had a friend who married a muslim so she had to switch to muslim. IMO, her original beliefs couldn't have been very strong. I could never, ever change what I believe.

Now, I do know a guy who was Christian and now he's agnostic. Not sure how that happens, maybe he was never truly Christian, I don't think you can become un-Christian. I don't know.

It's so complex. I am in a really bad place in my life right now and what keeps me going is knowing that God has a plan and it will happen just how it's supposed to happen. That's my faith in Him.

He sent his son to die on the cross to erase our sins IF we believe and accept Him into our lives. You have to ask.

But, I'm not out here to be a preacher, I'm just stating what I believe to be true. It's interesting to me to see how others think. When you're dead you're dead. I don't believe that but it's easy to see how people do. It's impossible for our human mind to imagine eternity, it's unfathomable for us. Same as God has always been here. I can drive myself crazy if I think on that one too much, so yes, it's easy to see how one might think totally opposite.

I don't think this thread has gone bad. I don't think anyone has been rude?

Yes, these topics can very easily ruffle feathers! I think it's going ok though.
 
schnebbles said:
Yes, these topics can very easily ruffle feathers! I think it's going ok though.
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Ha! Here I come with my "all too literal like Bones" moment stealer!
Did you know birds actually ruffle their feathers when they feel good? It's a way they express feeling happy :)

ANYWAY, I have no real input to this conversation other than what I previously stated. I believe that everything can be explained through natural processes, even the moment of the start of life itself. With billions of years behind us, evolution makes far more sense to me than the Young Earth theory. We obviously have fossils from creatures that lived here long before we did and died out before our time. There have been 5 major mass extinctions in earth's history, and we are in the middle of the 6th one, and there will surely be different life forms to take our place when we are gone. While I don't really believe in a god, I believe that human evolution took place much quicker than other animals, so something had to help us evolve so quickly around 3,000 years ago. I believe that we evolved naturally along with other hominids, of which there were 7 other species that we coexisted with. These other species disappeared for no apparent reason. Including neanderthal, which many people mistakenly believe that we evolved from. Everyone is searching for a missing link in our evolution, but I feel that there is none. We got to a certain point in our evolution in which an intelligent being, a god, or whatever you would like to label it, interfered with our genes to create Homo sapien. I also find things within the Bible difficult to fathom, such as Noah's ark. It is impossible to hold two animals of every species within the dimensions given. Not to mention that this would show in the genetics of animals today, everything would be virtual clones of each other like seen in cheetahs. There are other explanations to the ark idea that I find more appealing, such as a genetic bank of every animal. Of course, this is not the only thing I have issue with that is found in the Bible. I get confused as to where all the other people came from, Adam and Eve's children get married, but where did those people come from? Now I am getting off track! Anyway, as I stated before in my other post, "It's like one minute we're all sitting around in caves munching on bananas and the next we're building pyramids." I have no problem with people believing in God, gods, nothing, or whatever they so choose. I only have problems when I get told I deserve to get raped because of wearing tight clothing, or my soul is going to burn because I do not believe what others do. I was told both of these by church members at CSU in Fort Collins when I went there. My grandmother also had a still born baby, and her mom told her that the baby would burn in Hell for not being baptized. If this is the God many of us are to believe in, I don't want him to be my God. My God (if there is one) is all loving, I don't believe that good people go to Hell while rapists, murderers, and other evil doers are accepted into Heaven simply by asking for forgiveness. That is not a God I want to believe in.

Hmm, I guess I did have more to say than I thought o.o
I by no means am trying to degrade anyone for their beliefs, I am very accepting of everyone, I just don't like others trying to press their beliefs onto me- and unfortunately I have been met with a lot of that. I had an ex that flipped out on me if I even mentioned the possibility of aliens, and he'd say that evolution was the stupidest f-ing thing he had ever heard of and anyone who believed otherwise was an idiot. Needless to say... he is no longer around. There is never any reason to put someone down because their beliefs do not match with your own.
 
schnebbles said:
Now, I do know a guy who was Christian and now he's agnostic. Not sure how that happens, maybe he was never truly Christian, I don't think you can become un-Christian. I don't know.
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IMO, you can become non Christian, after being raised as a Christian. I did it.
It's not like your race, where you're born with Scottish heritage, for example. It's a religious path, or choice of faith.

I was raised as a Christian from my childhood. I walked away from Christianity several years ago, because I got tired of the general judgemental attitude of Christianity (I know not all Christians are, & I do *not* assume that anyone who is Christian, is going to be that way, but when a good majority of experiences are judgemental, I got tired of it & walked away.

I was drawn to the Native American beliefs, & how they honored nature & all living things. I started looking into the various paths of Paganism, & guess what? They're NOT satanists/devil worshippers, as the Christian lies said they are. I now follow a Pagan (Wiccan) path, & I have never felt more at peace. The devil/satan has no part in Paganism, as "he" is a Christian deity.

I do not believe that Paganism is the only way. I knew as a Christian, that Christianity was not the only way, but when all you hear from other Christians, is that non believers are going to hell, etc., it gets really old, fast. No one has the right to make that judgement call, IMO.

Who's to say that the god you chose to believe in, is not the same as another god someone else choses to believe in, just by another name?

I believe, that each person has the right to believe in whichever deity they want to, or none at all.
 
I was raised christian. I sincerely believed. But from a very young age I had problems with hell, and thanks to fundie relatives was terrified that I'd do something to make this "loving" god mad enough to send me there.

I remember crying myself to sleep while praying. When I was 5 years old. No *child* should experience such terror. Admittedly, I was a little odd. I've understood what death entails from the time of 4 or 5 years old. But that just made everything far worse, truly understanding that I was mortal, and would actually someday *die*.

And then... at 13... I read the bible for the first time. I read it through, cover to cover. And I was appalled. God taking away free will? Stoning kids to death for mocking their parents? Massacring entire villages, down to infants, or maybe keeping the young virgins to rape? God ordering these atrocities to glorify his name? And much of this after the whole "thou shalt not kill" commandment which apparently had a hidden amendment of "other jews" that failed to get written down. A man who offered up his daughters for gang rape is virtuous? Or killing someone's children as a test of their faithfulness? And how about the inconsistencies? What was the order of creation? How many people were in these various armies? Can we eat fatty meat or not? Which of the 4 groups killed Saul for real? Did solomon have 4,000 or 40,000 horses? Who did the angel talk to? Did Herod slaughter infants or not?

I could go on for *hours*, so yes. It is eminently possible for someone to have been "a real christian" and later decide that christianity is the wrong path, at least for themselves.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
 
schnebbles;1386155]I can't answer why God allows people (and animals) to be treated so horribly. It's human beings who do it and God allows it.

Nanci - what you said about switching faiths, I know! I had a friend who married a muslim so she had to switch to muslim. IMO, her original beliefs couldn't have been very strong. I could never, ever change what I believe.

Now said:
It's so complex. I am in a really bad place in my life right now and what keeps me going is knowing that God has a plan and it will happen just how it's supposed to happen. That's my faith in Him.

He sent his son to die on the cross to erase our sins IF we believe and accept Him into our lives. You have to ask.

But, I'm not out here to be a preacher, I'm just stating what I believe to be true. It's interesting to me to see how others think. When you're dead you're dead. I don't believe that but it's easy to see how people do. It's impossible for our human mind to imagine eternity, it's unfathomable for us. Same as God has always been here. I can drive myself crazy if I think on that one too much, so yes, it's easy to see how one might think totally opposite.

I don't think this thread has gone bad. I don't think anyone has been rude?

Yes, these topics can very easily ruffle feathers! I think it's going ok though.

If ever you want to test your faith do research into the history of Christianity and the Bible. I suggest the website Religion.Org and there are various books like "Who's Bible is it anyway" and The Catholic Bible which includes the writings left out by the Niceine (sp) Counsel. plus many many more books I can't even remember right now. I don't know if God exist's or not but what I believe is that religion is mankind's way of explaining that which is unexplainable. That said, I find that most religious people don't know where their sacred books come from. What kind of people wrote them? Who decided the stories were truth? and... Why? Still I think religion, if taken seriously, is a great way to give life meaning and direction not to mention a rock to hang onto when times are dark.
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to answer the questions on why God sends good people to hell. He doesn't. no one is good. we have all sinned and are separated from a holy God. Man's best goodness is filthy rags on his own, apart from the redeemed work to wipe his sins away. on the contrary, God sends sinners to heaven. sinners who have been redeemed by the blood of christ.

that is what the Bible has to say on the topic.
 
knox said:
to answer the questions on why God sends good people to hell. He doesn't. no one is good. we have all sinned and are separated from a holy God. Man's best goodness is filthy rags on his own, apart from the redeemed work to wipe his sins away. on the contrary, God sends sinners to heaven. sinners who have been redeemed by the blood of christ.

that is what the Bible has to say on the topic.
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So I'm more merciful than God. I would never, no matter how badly my child acts, nor how evil an act he performs, desire to torture my child for ever. If a human being did that they would be called sadistic and evil. But if a god does it, it's good and loving?

No. I'm sorry. That flies as well as a lead brick.
 
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