Testing for Stargazing

[Susan]

You can do the math all you want, but most of you are forgetting that the odds apply to each individual egg, not the clutch as a whole and that Murphy's laws override all mathematical calculations. Las Vegas didn't become successful because the odds favored the players. If you breed cornsnakes and deal with het genes, you'll eventually realize that "odds" is another 4-letter word.

 

[AggielandReptiles]

but most of you are forgetting that the odds apply to each individual egg

Well... sort of. Mendelian proportions do, but Binomial Probabilities take into account Bernoulli Trials, so they incorporate each "set" of trials as a single event. Statistics semantics, I know... Sorry.

Murphy's laws override all mathematical calculations

SO very true. And all too often.

"odds" is another 4-letter word.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[Nanci]

However, in the case of the stargazer gene I would ALWAYS suggest refraining from breeding even a POSSIBLE het for stargazer, as its a deleterious allele.

And if we did that, no snakes would ever get bred.

 

[chris68]

Of course since you brought it up.... A couple of years ago a vendor at the Tinley NARBC was selling "Spinner" Corns. You guessed it, they were Star Gazers being sold as the newest corn snake morph.

Nope, not surprised someone did nor surprised that they sold...Tinley NARBC is a pretty big show drawing breeders big and small...How did this guy NOT get laughed out of the venue by those in the know? :shrugs:

Devils Advocate time

I have known Chuck and Connie for...hmmm...10 years I guess, finally meeting them in 2005 and watching my then 8 year old keep their table, and Kathy Loves, organized and straight (hey it kept her busy and gave me a place out of the crowd).

I have never (ever) seen someone keep folders, charts, spreadsheets etc. like they (especially Connie) do. That being said, while stargazing is not something you really want floating around, it is not a collection destroyer like crypto. Offering tested Sunkissed morphs is just keepers being good keepers, but (jmho folks) that's the best it's ever going to be, and you will almost certainly only see it in sunkissed-based lines. My TS stuff has never given be ANY indication of throwing lil "whirlin' dervish" corns, and that's good enough for me...

edit "almost certainly only see it tested for in sunkissed-based lines"

 

[El Jefe]

Jeff had the first original wild caught lava. He found it.

Actually, I did NOT find it. I may have brought it to the attention of the market and the name I used in house was the name that was eventually given to the morph, but I did not "discover" the snake. Joe Pierce did. It popped in his collection and male and three het females found there way to me when I lived in Oklahoma. I was unaware that they originally came from Joe as mine came from Tim Rainwater and the rest of the history was sketchy. I was breeding them in house and they were different and suspected to be a different hypo. I marketed them under the name Lava to distinguish the look and suspected different hypo. Soon after, I had been able to connect the dots to Joe and we worked out a breeding loan to show that his hypos and my hypos (lava) were one in the same.

There is a lot more on the story and can be found in various searches. The point of my original comment about others working with lava was the fact that Joe did not lead every morph in the lava game. There were many of us doing it. In fact, lava motley was a market first for me...along with many other morphs.

For what it is worth as well, the start of this thread was probably prompted by the production of the sunkissed anery stripe...a project I started and then sold...and which produced the first ever sunkissed stripe. Just using this as an example of the fact that MANY people are involved in getting to many of the different morphs out there and rarely does one person rule them all.

 

[iculatr]

For what it is worth as well, the start of this thread was probably prompted by the production of the sunkissed anery stripe...a project I started and then sold...and which produced the first every sunkissed stripe.

And thank you for starting it and eventually selling it

Whenever you get back into corn snakes (you know you will!), give me a buzz!

 

[dave partington]

Actually, I did NOT find it. I may have brought it to the attention of the market and the name I used in house was the name that was eventually given to the morph, but I did not "discover" the snake. Joe Pierce did. It popped in his collection and male and three het females found there way to me when I lived in Oklahoma. I was unaware that they originally came from Joe as mine came from Tim Rainwater and the rest of the history was sketchy.

I apologize Joe. And thank you Joe.

Thank You Jeff. I recall you had a big lava boy at Daytona one year but the rest of the story was a fuzzy memory. Knew you had a messload (that's a lot) of projects with the gene.

 

[stephen]

Stargazing

This thread sure got off topic
If there was a way to test for stargazing that would be 100% accurate that your lines are clean I think anyone who is working with them would do the testing. Homo Stargazers x Het Stargazers breedings wont always and may never give you the answers your looking for.Please read Richs reply and try to understand what he is saying in it.......
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoannaD
Stephen, statistically if you breed a homo gazer and get no gazers in a seven egg clutch then there is a greater than 99% chance that the snake bred with the gazer is not het for the gene. That is the study or science of statistics. I don't know how to explain it but I trust Chuck's explanation. You never reach 100% because there is always the chance of the freak clutch. You either believe in the study of statistics or not.

I am happy to say that my male was tested and out of 16 eggs there were no gazers. I feel comfortable saying that I am over 99% sure he is not carrying the gazer gene. That may not be good enough for you but there is no other way.

I also find it incredibly sad that most of the people in this thread are in agreement (finally about 3 years after I was skewered for offering hets up for anyone who wants to test.) and yet you are bickering about how well someone expresses themselves or types.

I am sorry, but most people who have actually done any even moderate scale breeding could not honestly accept those statements after observing actual results from their clutches using ANY recessive gene. Not trying to be caustic, just realistic. IT JUST DOES NOT WORK OUT TO BE THAT WAY IN THE REAL WORLD.

16 eggs is NOT a sample large enough to be even remotely considered a statistical judgment call of the probability of the genetic makeup of the parents. In my humble opinion, that would be just downright foolish to do.

 

[nmoore601]

To all that posted on this thread. If I offended you personally I apologize. My intent was not to be a prick. I wish I could have worded my posts better. Hind sight is 20-20 though. I can't take anything back I can only move forward. I realize nobody will ever agree on everything. I know I'm not known here, I'm new to you guys. I started raising corn snakes at the age of 11. My collection has always been at least 75 animals. I was fortunate to have great teachers. For those of you that knew Lloyd Lemke he was my mentor. He taught me a lot. I wanted to throw in the mini introduction of myself while apologizing. I will be a friend to any and all. I love to learn from as many people as I can. Some will not ever like me I can't say anything other than that's life. Im not here to prove to the one lady what it is I do for a living.

I love corn snakes. I'm not in this to make money, I do like to break even. I know I jumped on the scene here and people might have thought I was show boating my collection. I have worked along time to build my collection and I want to offer the best. I use all my resources to obtain the best I can. That goes for their housing and care too.

Please forgive me I am by no means a spelling champ. I'm just Nick. So once again I apologize and threw out a little bit about me for those of you who don't know me.


I hope this makes it's way to everyone. I couldn't think of a better place to post this other than here.

 

[nmoore601]

One more thing I have tons of respect for the corn snake breeders. I was not trying to tell anyone what or how they need to manage there collections. I am not very good with words and have a hard time trying to do this.

I hope introducing myself at the same time was not taken the wrong way, just trying to get it out there to those that deserved an apology and didn't know anything about me.

Nick

 

[dwyn127]

For what it is worth as well, the start of this thread was probably prompted by the production of the sunkissed anery stripe...a project I started and then sold...and which produced the first ever sunkissed stripe. Just using this as an example of the fact that MANY people are involved in getting to many of the different morphs out there and rarely does one person rule them all.

So true. Last year I produced Lava Stripes, and suspected Lava Lav Stripe and Opal Lava Stripes, all thanx to the Lava male from Joe P, Lav Mötley female from Dave Gruing and Stripe female from Stephanie Kunder, all with the needed hets.

 

[Rich Z]

There was a statement made in Walter's thread in the Photo Gallery section (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122477) that I read, and although Walter requested that his thread not become another SG discussion thread, I felt that the statement needed to be addressed somewhere. This looks like a good place, I think.

Everybody KNOWS that ALL untested lines of Sunkisssed are at least 50% ph Stargazer.

Everybody knows this, yet they are still selling them, with the disclaimer, "I haven't seen it yet". Actually, everbody HAS seen it, time and time again as in this example. Untested lines of Sunkissed ARE 50% ph SG.

Well, Joe, please explain to me the statistical analysis that results in this sort of claim. Basically my understanding of the label "50% PH" is the resulting statistical percentage you get when you breed a DEFINITE het with any NON HET for the gene being considered. So I am curious about what statistic algorithm you are using when you make your above claim. Is there some other method of arriving at the "50% possible het" label on offspring that I am not familiar with, or are you claiming that ALL untested lines of Sunkissed MUST contain one or more DEFINITE hets for SG? If the latter, please enlighten me about how you came across this data that you appear to be claiming is factual.

As for your claim that "everybody HAS seen it", well, seriously, when did you become "all knowing" and "all seeing" enough to make a claim such as this?

 

[JimGERcream]

Since SG seems to be in the original sunkissed lineage from beginning, I definately would agree with Joe's statement. Every untested Sunkissed seems to be a potential carrier for SG. I don't know how many Sunkisseds you got AFTER you got the first animals from Kathy Love, but SG is also in your Sunkissed lineage(s?) - at least in the line where you were shooting for hypo sunkissed bloodreds, the Hypo Sunkissed het Bloodred male I got from your retirement sale is proven het. SG. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have bought it if he would have been labeld as poss het SG.... Certainly SG was not such a big topic back in the days, so no offense or something like that, but that shows very clear why Suns have to be tested. I'm honest when I say I bought that male from you because I thought such a big breeder with that reputation won't sell animals which are "not so okay". Lesson learned! SG can pop up everywhere, no matter if big high end breeder or small hobbyist.

So I do agree when Joe says stuff like that...

How would you label untested sunkisseds these days, Rich? I think you can't be wrong when you label them as poss het gazer :shrugs: Seems to me the better way instead of not calling a spade a spade. :shrugs:

Or is it just the percent number which disturbs you??


Nevertheless, more and more breeders are starting to test their lines. Here in Europe, there are several breeders who take a stand for tested lines, untested animals won't be sold, Forums start to ban classified advertisements with untested Sunkisseds, etc.. I do think this is a step into the right direction. Everyone of you who lost a breeding project because of SG knows what it feels like when you got the F2 after years of work, just to find out that funny head movement gene is also expressed in F2. Thanks for this, Murphy....

 

[El Jefe]

.....Here in Europe, there are several breeders who take a stand for tested lines, untested animals won't be sold, Forums start to ban classified advertisements with untested Sunkisseds, etc.....

Really?

Do they ban advertisements of animals that started out as difficult feeders requiring braining, lizard scenting, soap washed pinkies?

Although not a clear genetic connection with simple recessive genes, many who have been in the business long enough will recognize that some of these feeding tendencies seem to have some sort of component of possible inheritance. Would not getting a clutch of difficult feeders from some F2 project be equally frustrating?

And what about untested "other" snakes. You have indicated you have a hypo sunkissed het bloodred that is a definite het SG. So....would it not be prudent to test all hypos and bloodreds (and normals) as they could all have been byproducts of possible crosses with SG animals? What about SG found in lavender lines? Caramel lines? Are all hypos, bloods, lavenders and caramels now suspect and therefore banned from being sold without testing? Do breeders take a testing stance on these?

 

[nmoore601]

Jeff,
SK is the known source of SG. It would be ridiculous to test these other morphs as SK is where SG originated. I dont know why people get to defensive. Or are really worried to say anything because of fear of losing points are getting kicked off. the animals I bought from you were untested. Some carriers some not. But you did not hear a peep about I never bashed you.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Jeff,
SK is the known source of SG. It would be ridiculous to test these other morphs as SK is where SG originated. I dont know why people get to defensive. Or are really worried to say anything because of fear of losing points are getting kicked off. the animals I bought from you were untested. Some carriers some not. But you did not hear a peep about I never bashed you.

I forget who mentioned it earlier, but they made a fantastic point. What about the non-Sunkissed siblings? Do they not have the same potential to be gazer carriers? I have yet to hear that SG is allelic with SK, so it cannot be limited to just SK animals. Look at masque! That was thought to be a solely bloodred/diffused trait; it has since been proven that it is inheritable in morphs with no bloodred/diffused background.

 

[starsevol]

Exactly.

Sunkissed (het SG) X Lavender = Normals het Sunkissed, lavender (ph SG)

Those bred together you get normals, lavenders, sunkissed all ph sg, and everything else.

You can easily end up with a lavender that is not het sunkissed but is het SG.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

And what about untested "other" snakes. You have indicated you have a hypo sunkissed het bloodred that is a definite het SG. So....would it not be prudent to test all hypos and bloodreds (and normals) as they could all have been byproducts of possible crosses with SG animals? What about SG found in lavender lines? Caramel lines? Are all hypos, bloods, lavenders and caramels now suspect and therefore banned from being sold without testing? Do breeders take a testing stance on these?

Amen brother.

What about all the "normal" sibs or non target morph babies that got sold as "just" anery or "just" bloodred? What about the snakes sold wholesaled with no hets listed? They could be carrying the SK gene not being sold as such. So there are numerous carriers out there besides visual and marked SK snakes.

 

[nmoore601]

Correct my friend. The ACR will eliminate the question if your snakes ancestry has SK involved. It's work! But if you are getting snakes from breeders that know SK is not involved in the lineage the there is no need to test. That would be fruitless. It's all opinion but as more people create SK projects and get there F2 targets and have been told we never saw SG in the collection there will be some heart broken people.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Correct my friend. The ACR will eliminate the question if your snakes ancestry has SK involved. It's work! But if you are getting snakes from breeders that know SK is not involved in the lineage the there is no need to test. That would be fruitless. It's all opinion but as more people create SK projects and get there F2 targets and have been told we never saw SG in the collection there will be some heart broken people.

But what about the snakes that come from unregistered parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc? There's only so much the ACR can do. Not all breeders are or are going to register their animals. From what you and Joe were both saying earlier no matter how far back the SK lineage, they still need to be tested. So what if your animal has SK lineage from an unregistered mother or father? You're potentially propagating the gazer line into another generation.