Palmetto death

[carnivale]

As I'm sure anyone can imagine, a palmetto is still a pretty expensive investment. But even beyond that, I really loved my little boy. I purchased from Travis Whisler, the snake seemed very healthy and alert when he arrived, and he accepted his first feeding. I thought everything would be fine.

However, the following day, I found the pinkie had been regurgitated. So of course I got very worried, and contacted Travis to see if maybe the snake was used to eating live vs. frozen/thawed. We went over tank temperatures and conditions, etc. and neither of us could figure out why it had happened. He told me to try feeding him in the tank next time, with no handling until he was eating regularly again.

Less than a week later, today I noticed him in his tank with his head upside down and not moving. When I took him out, he was completely limp, and non-responsive, with his neck area already starting to stiffen up.

This is the second baby I've had who has died. I do have another corn snake who is completely fine, he eats regularly, has never regurgitated, and I've had him for several months with zero issues. Both tank setups are entirely the same, but the only thing I lacked from the first baby I lost was a temp monitor/regulator. So I got one right away, set it all up, so that on the warm end it is consistently kept at around 86F.

I had that all set up before I received my palmetto. I've double checked several different care sheets to see if there's something I missed, if I did something wrong, and the only thing I've found is that I didn't wait exactly 10 days before handling/feeding. It was more like 7 days. But surely a difference of 3 days wouldn't lead to this??

I've only had the palmetto for about 2 weeks. I'm heartbroken, since this was my dream snake, and lord knows he cost quite a bundle, so that's a lot of money lost as well. I'm just struggling to sort out what in the world I'm doing wrong, especially when my other snake is perfectly healthy in the exact same conditions.

I'll post a picture, in case anyone might be able to recognize something that might be wrong. His tail definitely looks as if he's dehydrated, or potentially starved, but that makes no sense because I always keep fresh water available, and when I tried to feed him he threw the pinkie up, but was feeding fine for the breeder before I got him.

 

[Rich Z]

In my opinion, it would take a pretty substantial error on your part to kill a corn snake in just two weeks. And I would think that you would be making that same mistake with ALL of your animals, killing them as well.

Did the snake exhibit any odd behavior while you had him? Spending a lot of time in the water bowl, or constantly prowling the cage like he wanted out?

Have you checked with the seller to see what sort of guarantee is offered against this sort of eventuality? I would think most reputable sellers would stand behind what they are selling for a reasonable period of time. Especially ones willing to spend relatively higher dollar amounts for what they want.

 

[Rich Z]

Oh, btw, if you want to take him to a vet for a necropsy on Monday, keep him in the refrigerator and don't freeze him. In your shoes I would strongly consider doing that.

 

[carnivale]

In my opinion, it would take a pretty substantial error on your part to kill a corn snake in just two weeks. And I would think that you would be making that same mistake with ALL of your animals, killing them as well.

Did the snake exhibit any odd behavior while you had him? Spending a lot of time in the water bowl, or constantly prowling the cage like he wanted out?

Have you checked with the seller to see what sort of guarantee is offered against this sort of eventuality? I would think most reputable sellers would stand behind what they are selling for a reasonable period of time. Especially ones willing to spend relatively higher dollar amounts for what they want.

He did prowl a bit, but mostly spent a lot of time in his warm hide, and I never saw him drink. After showing the picture to the breeder, he agreed the snake looked dehydrated. I'm just confused because, as I said, there was always water available, and I change the water out regularly.

I'll ask him if he has any health guarantee, or 30 day deal, in case I can possibly receive a replacement.

I'll be sure to see about a necropsy, because I am honestly baffled, because my other snake is perfectly fine with the exact same conditions.

 

[Rich Z]

BTW, you DID quarantine that new animal from your other(s), didn't you?

No offense to the seller, but ALL new animals should be quarantined, no matter who you get them from.

 

[carnivale]

BTW, you DID quarantine that new animal from your other(s), didn't you?

No offense to the seller, but ALL new animals should be quarantined, no matter who you get them from.

This corn never had any contact with any other animals. I don't house my snakes together.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

Just looking at the picture above, That snake looks terribly Malnourished to me. It's way too skinny, the skin is wrinkly, you can plainly see its spine, all the things that most people say you should not be able to see. My guess is the snake starved to death, but you won't know anything for sure unless you have it looked at by a professional.

 

[carnivale]

Just looking at the picture above, That snake looks terribly Malnourished to me. It's way too skinny, the skin is wrinkly, you can plainly see its spine, all the things that most people say you should not be able to see. My guess is the snake starved to death, but you won't know anything for sure unless you have it looked at by a professional.

I would agree, considering he regurgitated the first pinkie I fed him, and refused to eat the other that was offered to him. I only had him about 2 weeks, and so made 2 feeding attempts.

 

[twreptiles]

just to clear a few things up I'd like to elaborate on this unfortunate event. This animal has been in my care from the day it was born. I sold this animal in August and held onto the animal until last month when I shipped it to it's new home. This animal has probably eaten over 40 times since it was born. We feed smaller meals more frequently and this snake was fed every 5 days. It's very puzzling to everyone involved as to why something like this would happen to an animal that appeared to be perfectly healthy. I've sold quite a few Palmettos all around the world and can count on one hand how many issues I've had, two of which were hatchlings that were shipped overseas and appeared to be very dehydrated after transportation. Things like this just don't happen. With that being said, I do guarantee live arrival and all animals to be healthy at delivery. I plan to replace this animal with hopes that this isn't a husbandry issue and just a fluke thing. I don't plan to comment any more on this thread because I don't spend much time on the forums and will undoubtedly not see the comments. Any questions regarding this matter I'd be happy to answer via email at [email protected].

Thanks,
Travis Whisler

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

you'll never convince me that snake ate "over 40 times." You can look at it and tell it's grossly underfed.

 

[carnivale]

For fair comparison, here is a picture of the snake from August, when I first committed to purchase him.

Here he is about 1 month before I received him.

And this is him the day I received him and put him in his tank.

Travis has promised me a replacement, which I'm incredibly grateful for, and am hoping there will be no other issues with the new snake. Fingers crossed.

 

[Nanci]

He's so thin. Are you getting a necropsy? I think that's warranted. I'm happy that Travis is replacing him. Quarantine, quarantine, quarantine.

 

[SODERBERGD]

Temperatures

One of the things that I deal with most often in the 40+ years I've been selling snakes is TEMPERATURE related. When I ask a customer who's having problems with their snake's appetite or digestion what the temperature is inside the warm hide of the cage, they usually cite the temp on the adhesive-stripe thermometer up on the inside wall of the cage, inches away from the warm hide. They sometimes have lights above the cage that are not only cooking the snake but sucking all the moisture out of the cage. Especially when someone is facing a major financial loss, I often have trouble getting them to understand a couple of realities that impact hatchling corn snakes. 1) if a hide is over 84F, most hatchling corns will usually not occupy that hide. Instead, they go to cooler zones of the cage where they are often either encased in extremely dry particulate wood substrate--that sucks the moisture out of their bodies via osmosis--or are relegated to reposing above the substrate where the air super-dehydrates them--because they any place in the cage is safer than a hide that does not satisfy their needs? Adding to those potential dangers is the reality that most corn snakes do not function properly in temperatures that don't facilitate appetite and proper digestion? If the warm hide is TOO warm, they know--by instinct--that their best chance for survival is to avoid that oppressive heat, but cooler temps don't encourage appetite and don't facilitate proper digestion. Still, we know that heat kills them (THEY actually only know it's uncomfortable) so this is why they go to that deadly temp zone that ranges between digestion efficiency and brumation (between 70F and 79F). Yes, they can survive (not thrive) in temps lower than 79F--for brief periods--but they are on the fence regarding their welfare. Just one over-sized meal and/or a spike or dip of several degrees where they are--in the cage--can push them over the edge of efficient metabolism? I tell my customers that there is only one place in the cage where temperature matters and that place is where the snake should spend over 75% of all daytime hours. That place SHOULD BE in the warm hide, but ONLY if that warm hide is dark, snug (not cavernous) and maintains a temp above the substrate of 81F-84F? If you can see your snake in the hide, the snake can see you. That results in stress. Without eyelids to protect their eyes, and because snakes seem to have the ostrich-like logic that what they cannot see won't hurt them, they are insecure in hides that are the opposite of the conditions cited above. They may have a strong urge to eat, but they learn more quickly than we expect. If they puke a meal, DO NOT offer another meal for many days and ONLY if you have corrected any cage temp deficiencies? One vomited meal essentially swabs their stomach of digestive acids. Reproducing those acids is one of the most energy-intensive functions in snakes. Since hatchlings have such limited fat stores (VS. their larger counterparts who have more fat storage potential) without new calories, their body robs itself of vital nutrients. It can take weeks for them to restore stomach acids in sufficient volume to digest whole prey, but they cannot do that if cage temps are oppressive and/or dynamic?

Comparing the success of one snake to another is only possible if both snakes share the same cage AND if both snakes are spending the same time spans in and out of the warm hide? Cages just inches away from others do not have a sufficiently comparable environment to be able to say, "my other snakes are doing fine under the same conditions". We humans produce our own body heat, so we often reason that if we can be comfortable in every room of the house--regardless of temperature differences--why can't the snake be functional within the small real estate of their cage? It's a dangerous parallel. This is why big breeders don't heat cages individually. We use heaters (and fans) to achieve a balanced temperature in every corner of the room and ever corner of every cage. Most of the year, my snake buildings are 82.5F plus or minus one degree F.. Bottom line: hatchling corns require a hide that is not spacious, is very dark inside, and is between 81F and 84F and the only way to know if you have achieved those prerequisites is to put a TRUSTED thermometer INside the warm hide; a thermometer you KNOW to be accurate from periodic evaluation. Even one inch outside that hide is not what your snake feels or needs to feel. Your home thermostat is not out on your front porch. You don't live out on the porch, so you insist that the thermostat controls the temperatures where YOU are; inside the house. SO, don't think of a snake's cage as it's house. Think of the warm hide as the snake's house, since it should spend more than 75% of all daytime hours therein.

 

[SODERBERGD]

Dehydration

What I meant to convey is that the picture of the snake shown in this thread was one of the most dehydrated hatchling corns I've ever seen. Either from an arid cage or extreme light or temperature,
I'm guessing that its cage was well over 86F, and therefore suggest that the owner keeps several accurate thermometers laying around. If they all read the same temps when they are in the same place, they are usually accurate? One of the most trusted thermometers is your home's HVAC thermostat, so put them ON that wall-mounted thermostat for at least ten minutes, for comparison. Also, if you are using a light to heat the cage (or even to illuminate the cage) get rid of it. UT heating is the safest and most reliable heat source for corn snakes.

 

[Dragonling]

Some of you may remember the mystery problems I had with my 2015 palmetto hatchling. Turned out to be parasitic, possibly in concert with bacterial infection. The vet rattled off something specific, but I was so relieved to have some kind of possible answer I'll admit I didn't pay attention to the diagnosis, only to the suggested treatment.

I don't believe these two cases are at all related, and I don't believe anyone is to blame for my male's issues, but I thought I should post after seeing how much thinner yours was than mine even. I think at his worst mine was probably very close. Here is a photo gallery of my boy's progress since I purchased him, at least the few photos I've taken: http://imgur.com/a/dz9Ll I'm hoping we can get him back on track to breed in a year or two.

 

[MysticExotics]

Some of you may remember the mystery problems I had with my 2015 palmetto hatchling. Turned out to be parasitic, possibly in concert with bacterial infection. The vet rattled off something specific, but I was so relieved to have some kind of possible answer I'll admit I didn't pay attention to the diagnosis, only to the suggested treatment.

I don't believe these two cases are at all related, and I don't believe anyone is to blame for my male's issues, but I thought I should post after seeing how much thinner yours was than mine even. I think at his worst mine was probably very close. Here is a photo gallery of my boy's progress since I purchased him, at least the few photos I've taken: http://imgur.com/a/dz9Ll I'm hoping we can get him back on track to breed in a year or two.

Carnivale, I'm very sorry to hear about your loss.

Laura, remember that Alpha regurged his first meal with me, and then refused the next meal, and I continued to offer small meals with nutribac.
I had no problems with any other snake here.

He was showing triangular when he arrived here, so that didn't help the he regurged his first meal, then refused the next one.

I had hoped to be part of the Palmetto project, but I was not comfortable in keeping him here, with his issues.

I am glad you figured out what the problem was, and that he is recovering, and I hope he remains healthy for you.

 

[carnivale]

To be clear, my UT heat readings come from inside both tanks' warm end hides. I do not use strips or stick the thermometers to the side of the cage. The "pills" are inside the hides, and their temps read within a range of 84F to 86F. Both UT's are plugged into the same thermostat, so it is regulating both their temps. I do have extra, separate digital thermometers that also read out at the same temps when placed inside the hides.

I really do not believe this is a temperature issue. Yes, the snake was dehydrated, but like I said, I never saw him drink, whereas my other corn drinks normally and is healthy.

This is why I say that the tanks have the same conditions. They have the exact same hides, water dishes, decorations. Both have aspen shavings, and the same temp readouts.

Is 86F considered too hot? From everything I've ever read, high 80s is what is called for for the warm hide. I don't mean to get defensive, but I'm incredibly careful about temperatures since first losing a snake due to lack of a thermostat.

I don't use heating lights. I have, however, moved the cages into my bedroom, away from my other animals, where the lights are never on, and I only go in there to sleep and to feed the snakes. I did this the day before my palmetto died, as I was trying to do everything I could to eliminate any possible source of stress.

I am taking him in for a necropsy, so hopefully soon I'll have definitive answers.

Dragonling, you mentioned your corn from Travis couldn't handle a whole pinkie? I'm wondering if I should cut them into smaller bits for when I get my replacement. I'll also be sure to go to a vet for fecal testing, just in case.

 

[MysticExotics]

To be clear, my UT heat readings come from inside both tanks' warm end hides. I do not use strips or stick the thermometers to the side of the cage. The "pills" are inside the hides, and their temps read within a range of 84F to 86F. Both UT's are plugged into the same thermostat, so it is regulating both their temps. I do have extra, separate digital thermometers that also read out at the same temps when placed inside the hides.

I really do not believe this is a temperature issue. Yes, the snake was dehydrated, but like I said, I never saw him drink, whereas my other corn drinks normally and is healthy.

This is why I say that the tanks have the same conditions. They have the exact same hides, water dishes, decorations. Both have aspen shavings, and the same temp readouts.

Is 86F considered too hot? From everything I've ever read, high 80s is what is called for for the warm hide. I don't mean to get defensive, but I'm incredibly careful about temperatures since first losing a snake due to lack of a thermostat.

I don't use heating lights. I have, however, moved the cages into my bedroom, away from my other animals, where the lights are never on, and I only go in there to sleep and to feed the snakes. I did this the day before my palmetto died, as I was trying to do everything I could to eliminate any possible source of stress.

I am taking him in for a necropsy, so hopefully soon I'll have definitive answers.

Dragonling, you mentioned your corn from Travis couldn't handle a whole pinkie? I'm wondering if I should cut them into smaller bits for when I get my replacement. I'll also be sure to go to a vet for fecal testing, just in case.

Laura's Palmetto came to me first, and at 42 grams I offered a fuzzy 10 days after he arrived here. (All of my babies can handle fuzzies from 30-ish grams on up). He regurged a couple days later. He refused the next meal, a small pinky. I offered another pinky w/ nutriback 6 days later, which he ate.
I fed about every 6 days, every time with nutribac, and he was up to peach fuzzies by the time he went to Laura, a couple months later.

 

[Rich Z]

I tried to never get my corns as high as 86 degrees. 82 was more what I considered to be max temp for them. I thought this was real critical, particularly during breeding season so as to not get the male so warm that it would affect fertility. With baby snakes, I just kept them all at room temperature which tended to vary from 78 to 82 degrees. Higher cages in a rack would tend to be higher on the scale, so sometimes I would have to adjust the location of the cage if an individual seemed uncomfortable with the temp I had it at. Generally, though, uncomfortable temps for a snake will usually have them soaking in the water dish to try to moderate the air temps. So that can be a good sign to look for.

I used to have babies that would regurge now and again, and my procedure for those animals was to merely feed them new born pinky heads for a few weeks till they seemed to stabilize so I could return them to whole pinkies. I also tended to shoot on the small side for meals. I know some people will feed very large meals to their snakes, and will often get away with it, but I was never comfortable with ballooning out the bellies on baby snakes. That just seemed like a good way to incur a regurge problem. Generally with baby snakes, three regurges in a row and they are OUT, so I tried hard to keep from getting even strike one.

Please let us know what the necropsy shows.

 

[carnivale]

I tried to never get my corns as high as 86 degrees. 82 was more what I considered to be max temp for them. I thought this was real critical, particularly during breeding season so as to not get the male so warm that it would affect fertility. With baby snakes, I just kept them all at room temperature which tended to vary from 78 to 82 degrees. Higher cages in a rack would tend to be higher on the scale, so sometimes I would have to adjust the location of the cage if an individual seemed uncomfortable with the temp I had it at. Generally, though, uncomfortable temps for a snake will usually have them soaking in the water dish to try to moderate the air temps. So that can be a good sign to look for.

I used to have babies that would regurge now and again, and my procedure for those animals was to merely feed them new born pinky heads for a few weeks till they seemed to stabilize so I could return them to whole pinkies. I also tended to shoot on the small side for meals. I know some people will feed very large meals to their snakes, and will often get away with it, but I was never comfortable with ballooning out the bellies on baby snakes. That just seemed like a good way to incur a regurge problem. Generally with baby snakes, three regurges in a row and they are OUT, so I tried hard to keep from getting even strike one.

Please let us know what the necropsy shows.

So far as I've noticed, my corns haven't really curled up in their waterbowls, but then considering they're nocturnal it could be happening while I'm asleep.

It seems depending on who I talk to, their perfect temp is different, but I'll try dialing it down to 82-84 and see if that helps. Thank you for the advice!

I took him in to the vet today (he's been in my fridge) where they will put him in their own fridge to ensure his body lasts until morning. They'll be doing the necropsy tomorrow morning.