BUF gene

Cool! Looks like she isn't letting him get away any time soon!

Thanks for the pics Marc.
Kind of looks like a caramel key

Wow that's some fire..

Rich Z said:

OK, let's step back a bit and look at the stated evidence without all the other stuff surrounding it.

If you breed Ultramel to Amel, what do you get? Ultramels AND Amels.

If you breed Ultramel to Ultra, what do you get? Ultramels and Ultras.

So if Buf was bred to Caramel and produced Bufs and Caramels........

Anyone else want to continue this thought to it's possible logical conclusion? :grin01:

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Would the answer be 'Buffamels'?

Regardless of the words being attempted to be put into my mouth, all I've ever asked for is to see a buf NOT het Caramel crossed with a Caramel. Period.

I've never called slangenbroad a liar. It's not about thinking buf isn't something new. It's not about the morph guide, it's not about chucky, it's not about the "other place" and it's not about grudges.

It's about wanting all the I's dotted and T's crossed. Period.

Regarding other morphs that have been given a "free pass"? By whom? I don't trust Ultra any further than you can toss one. Kisatchie is in the realm of Emoryi as far as I'm concerned. There's two types of "pied side" that haven't been fully proven. Dilute still has work to be done along with Terrazzo and Tesserra. I don't recall any of those projects definitely indicating mode of inheritence as proven/confirmed. Tests are still being done . . . which is all I've ever asked for concerning buf.

D80

Oye vey... not the Buf thing again...

Hey look, there's a wall... I think I'll go beat my head against it :headbang:

mvervest said:

Not bad to be back in 10 minutes with not too bad pictures , resizing and posting :laugh:

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You know, that "Buf" looks pretty darn close to the original ancestor of the Caramel line. I bought that animal in a pet shop in Cape Coral, Florida that was in a container of about a dozen or so local wild caughts. That one just caught my eye because of the markedly different coloration compared to all the others. It was the brownish colored saddles and straw colored background that I found intriguing.

Here's the quote from my writeup on the Butter Corn off of my SerpenCo site where I went into the origination of the Caramel gene:

Back in May of 1985, my wife and I were vacationing in southwest Florida and happened upon a pet shop in Cape Coral. They had an aquarium with about a dozen or so wild caught corn snakes in it and one in particular caught my eye. It was a female and the coloration was a rather unusual straw colored ground color with reddish-brown blotches. I just thought it might make a rather interesting looking amelanistic so I purchased it to take home.

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Wish I had a pic of that original animal somewhere, but that was a pretty long time ago, and honestly I wasn't expecting anything extraordinary out of it. Just a bit different from the run-of-the-mill corns, which is why I picked it out. But I'll have to see if I can dredge up some old photos (prints) that I have laying around on the off chance I just may have taken a photo and stored it away. Somewhere around here I have BOXES of old photos.

Not to muddy the waters any further, mind you.............. :headbang:

Maybe "buf" should/could be thought of as a Caramel type B?

Shiari said:

Nanci, an 'orange' is an animal that is buf and homozygous amel.

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I did not see anything that proved this only that that is what is being assumed. Did I miss the info that shows an orange was bred to an amel and got amels?

Rich Z said:

You know, that "Buf" looks pretty darn close to the original ancestor of the Caramel line. I bought that animal in a pet shop in Cape Coral, Florida that was in a container of about a dozen or so local wild caughts. That one just caught my eye because of the markedly different coloration compared to all the others. It was the brownish colored saddles and straw colored background that I found intriguing.



Not to muddy the waters any further, mind you.............. :headbang:

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That's realy interesting! I hope you can find the pics, but tell me, if this is caramel at play. . . why would amel added in not give butters, instead they are seeing oranges? Anyone have pics of some oranges?

carnivorouszoo said:

That's realy interesting! I hope you can find the pics, but tell me, if this is caramel at play. . . why would amel added in not give butters, instead they are seeing oranges? Anyone have pics of some oranges?

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I didn't say this was Caramel. I'm saying that the animal my Caramels CAME from looked just like that. So perhaps "Buf" actually is a new gene, and the animal I got was actually this genetic type and happened to be carrying Caramel as well. Or perhaps there is something else going on whereby Caramel combined with something else actually makes this "Buf" looking animal. At this point, I believe it would be wise to just keep an open mind till more evidence surfaces.

One fly in the ointment is that I find it really strange that no one, as far as I know of, has ever caught a Caramel in the wild around the Ft. Myers area. Of course, perhaps people are catching "Bufs", but quite honestly, most people wouldn't notice too much about it differing from standard looking corns, I believe. It IS a rather subtle look......

This chica throws off some dark red amels and orange amels to boot.. I wish I would have kept the pictures of his mixed group of off spring from a few years ago.. But alas I figured the creams were the only thing that might sell and the normal looking amels hit whole sale.. Very similair patterning to the buff thats breeding the fire too, although that means nothing really... Am I going to bred her this coming year? No, no real point to...



Even if Buf is thought to be a Rootbeer, how are you going to prove it anyways? Didn't some big name say we can't test bred for hybrid's ?


FWIW.. I could care less whether a breeder is 'Mercian or Euro, because it has very little to do with who has the biggest bits, it comes down to trying to sort things out, which might be genetically impossible, regardless of what people think..

Drizzt80 said:

It's not about thinking buf isn't something new....
It's about wanting all the I's dotted and T's crossed. Period.
D80

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I think that's fair enough. I hope you don't think _I_ was putting words in your mouth. When I used the 'liar' word, I was just bringing this whole thing to it's logical conclusions as I saw them. As in, if you've read the evidence and yet you don't think it's something new, you either must think there was a mistake or somebody's not being honest. If the account is truthful, the logical conclusion is? You tell me?
Honestly I didn't even have you pegged as the big naysayer (or anyone else for that matter- just read the thread and others and went with a general tone. Heck I was a naysayer as well in older threads!).
I'm not trying in the least to make anything personal.

Anyway I think it's clear that nobody is saying they know everything about the new morph, just that they believe it's beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's not something else we know already. Maybe I've gone further in the last sentence than you would, maybe not.

Shiari said:

Maybe "buf" should/could be thought of as a Caramel type B?

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I'm pretty dang sure that if the morph catches on here it would be by another name. I'm sure buf makes perfect sense in Dutch, but I don't think it will be so catchy in english, lol.
Honestly, even the look of buf doesn't do anything for me (though I'd like to see some oranges! Don't think I ever have). But I thought the same of cinder until Carol put it with amel. Wowzers. You never know!

carnivorouszoo said:

I did not see anything that proved this only that that is what is being assumed. Did I miss the info that shows an orange was bred to an amel and got amels?

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I also assumed that from the breeding trials. It only came out of crosses where the 'buf' was het amel and bred to an Amel. Or some other similar crosses.

carnivorouszoo said:

That's realy interesting! I hope you can find the pics, but tell me, if this is caramel at play. . . why would amel added in not give butters, instead they are seeing oranges? Anyone have pics of some oranges?

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I digged in a powerpointpresentation I made from my animals :BUFF and ORANGE

BUFF hatchling

They were separated by the more yellow dots . These ones in the clutch turned out to be Buff

Wow, those oranges look amel but if you look the eyes are red like a normals! Ok, this is beyond me and I will just watch for future developements.

FWIW, I do believe this is something new, never said it wasn't just trying to help figure out exactly what it isn't, and how it behaves. However, as I said this is beyond me.

carnivorouszoo said:

Wow, those oranges look amel but if you look the eyes are red like a normals! Ok, this is beyond me and I will just watch for future developements.

FWIW, I do believe this is something new, never said it wasn't just trying to help figure out exactly what it isn't, and how it behaves. However, as I said this is beyond me.

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Those are most certainly amels. Normal cornsnakes do not have red eyes/pupils like that.

So, without trying to dig though a lot of links and past posts, where did this line originate from? I mean tracked back as far as possible concerning ancestry.....

Kinda "buf" looking?



w/c yearling from northern FL, about 7 yrs ago...Brevard or Broward county (would have to look on a map)