I have read over the links that Kathy posted a few days ago. From the data there, I agree with Chuck Pritzel's conclusions.
As Chuck wrote, the question of whether the buf gene and the caramel gene can be in the same gene pair is still up in the air as far as we know. However, according to one of the links, in the 2009 season, Slangenbroed had eggs from two matings, butter het motley x orange and golddust motley x orange. These matings could have already answered the question.
Paulh, is the genetic expert on this forum, who I respect the most. He is obviously very knowledgeable about the subject.
He is always polite and attempts to answer even the most simple questions. He also has the answers to the most complex questions we ask.
A new dominant gene, will take some time to understand, just like our alleles, Ultra/Amel, and Motley/Striped. Tessera is easy to see, but it takes more expertise to see Buf.
Chuck Pritzel, has been there all along helping the Corn Snake Community, figure out these genes, so we can predict our breeding results. He started with Diffused, help us understand Ultra/Amel and Motley/Striped, which now are all common knowledge, and now I see Masque and Buf as new subtle genes,.
I see Masque, and Buf in my collections all the time, or mimics of them, don‘t you?
I didn't say this was Caramel. I'm saying that the animal my Caramels CAME from looked just like that. So perhaps "Buf" actually is a new gene, and the animal I got was actually this genetic type and happened to be carrying Caramel as well. Or perhaps there is something else going on whereby Caramel combined with something else actually makes this "Buf" looking animal. At this point, I believe it would be wise to just keep an open mind till more evidence surfaces.
One fly in the ointment is that I find it really strange that no one, as far as I know of, has ever caught a Caramel in the wild around the Ft. Myers area. Of course, perhaps people are catching "Bufs", but quite honestly, most people wouldn't notice too much about it differing from standard looking corns, I believe. It IS a rather subtle look......
Yes, I read that, but the only statement concerning ancestry that jumps out at me is this one:
I'm just curious if there has been any tracking back to see where the stock may have originated from.
The reason I am curious is because I believe I have seen animals like that at my facility over the years, but just never paid attention to them (they were too close to being normal looking to catch my eye), and am curious if it was something that tagged along with the original Caramel carrier. Depending on how long ago this trait developed might tell a lot about how widespread it really is.
My guess is that it is VERY widespread but not recognized by most people.......
Here is another expert in our Corn Snake Community. I think Rich is right about the Buf and Caramel genes originating in his Caramel line, or he combined them over the years by selective breeding. If it is not the Buf gene, it is a perfect mimic.
Thread after thread has been started on this forum talking about Het Caramels being very yellow. I have stated before in these threads that I thought a yellow causing gene of some type has been bred into the Caramel line and it seems to be co-dominant or dominant, but everybody wants Caramel to be co-dominant so they can pick out the possible het Caramels. The answer to all of these threads is Buf or a mimic.
My first experience with Caramel was with Butter Motleys and Striped Butters I bought from Rich Z. I create a lot of projects, so one of my first with Butter Motley was to breed them to a Wild Line Lava (Jasper County, SC, Okeetee type bloodline) to create a Het Lava Butter Motley Project. The entire clutch was extremely yellow and some were very red as well. ACR 2087 and ACR 2088 were the two males I held back for this project.
Their phenotype was nothing like what I expected from a Motley X Okeetee Corn breeding that are het Lava Butter Motley, all recessive genes. There seemed to be some obvious dominant influence from some subtle genes in F1. Everybody has been kissing off these subtle gene influences and grouping them into the category of “selective breeding“. Each and every time I create a project with one of Rich Z’s homo Caramel morphs, I get either 50% or 100% high yellow offspring in F1. This is exactly what is happening with the Buf gene, and I think just about everybody has the gene in their colony, or something very similar.
Subtle genes are just as deserving of morph status, as are the obvious ones, it just take a little more understanding and expertise to see them. Diffused was right under our noses for many years and said to be caused by “selective breeding”, before someone with a little more insight joined our Corn Snake Community. The same is the case for Masque and Buf.
I credit Jan for discovering and proving out Buf, but why didn’t any of you when it was or is right under all of your noses. I could have proved it out too, if it is one and the same as the gene I got from Rich Z along with my Butters, but it was not important enough to me, because it was subtle. It was important enough to Jan and I thank him for answering one of the many questions I have about our Corns that is always attributed to “selective breeding”.
There are a lot of layers of color and pattern that subtle gene can have an influence over. Some of the layers can come off or be put on, to create different looking morphs. One layer I see often is a thin layer of red color right on the top of all colors, like red cellophane. I have started calling them “Redcoats“. A lot of people have seen them in their collections, because Redcoats can come from many lines, they have just called them something else, like Florescent or Cherry or many other names, for the same subtle gene, that is in most of our collections.
ACR 2088 is probably a Redcoat Buf, het Lava Butter Motley and he has some type of pattern modifier too. ACR 2087 has the same pattern, and would be a Buf in this example without the redcoat, so you can see the pattern better. How did I get that from a breeding between a Wild Lava X Rich Z Butter Motley? Most likely, there are three dominant subtle genes involved. Buf, Redcoat, and a pattern modifier. I would say the Buf and pattern modifier came from Rich Z and the Redcoat was in both lines. It is not just “selective breeding” or “clutch variation“. Subtle genes exist and more will be found I am sure, because they are already here.
unch:
