"Blued Steel" Pippies!

I'm still iffy on what all crosses have been done. Can someone compile a nice list of crosses/results so we can look at it all in one place and then try to come up with a hypothesis? :santa:

Also Joe, in case you were looking for another lavender line without hypo in it, those hets for sun/lav were produced by crossing lavender het amel X sunkissed. The lavender is not het hypo, so your hets aren't either. (BTW did you get anything from them yet?)

Here are the results I've been able to dig up. IMO we need to put these all together, and there are probably 2-3 times this many crosses that have been done and could be reported.

If anyone can fill in the blanks on the ones here, or add new crosses, please do.

Info would be for the following fields. If the snake has a name or ID tag or ACR#, use that so we can all see which snakes are related to what.

Year:
Breeder:
Parent1:
Parent2:
Anerys?:
Blues?:
Ghosts?:

(The list I've compiled would explain why I'm not convinced yet... :grin01: )

I have a question about Marc's crossing; how can a SBGxSBG NOT produce ghosts? Or do you mean phenotype ghost? So, the blues don't look like a ghost but are genetically?

The Bayou Reptile breeding above needs to be changed. You have the parents that he used to begin the project. He bred a Blue Motley X Anery Striped in 2004 and produced Anery Motleys het Dilute Striped, which were used to produce this years clutch. Anery Motley het Dilute Striped X Same = Anery Motleys, Anery Striped and Blue Motleys. I believe that a Blue Striped is possible, but he only produced one Striped in the clutch.

He also bred a Blue Motley X Hypo Lav in 2004 and produced 50% Hypos and 50% Normals, but only saved Hypos het Blue Lav Motley which he has eggs from this year.
He also bred a Blue Motley X Pewter in 2004 and has eggs from the Hets for Blue Motley Pewters incubating now.

Here are two sample photos of sibling Lavenders. One is a Sunset and Lav sibling and the other is a “Ghost” like Lav and Lav sibling. I believe they are caused by the same thing, one just lacks pink. Since I do not have the hypo gene in the mix, there are no “Ghosts”, which would actually be Hypo Lavs in this case if we are talking about an allele with hypo. Since I don’t have the hypo gene in the mix, all I can see is the dilute effect on the Lav gene. I have also produced a hypo like Normal, that is not a Hypo. I have seen some variation in the Amels, but I believe that may be something that is partially mask, like the hypo gene is.

Bayou Reptile has been breeding the Blue Motleys for several years. I will try to get some more breeding results from Rob. I have somebody else in mind too.

Thanks Joe, and I look forward to seeing as many results as we can get. Here's the updated version.

Although the Dilute/Hypo allele theory is a nice thought, I believe it is much more likely that the cause of the Blue Motleys is an independent gene, that acts like the Dilute Gene in other animals. Just because Hypo is mixed into the group, doesn’t mean that it is an allele. The most likely cross anybody would do when they produced a Dilute Normal or Dilute Anery, is to breed them to the Hypo based equivalent to test for Hypo, which would mix the two genes together.

Since the Blue Motleys were found in a wholesale shipment, they had already been mixed up before anybody got their hands on them. The original Blue Motleys could have simple been Dilute Anerys het for Hypo.

A Dilute Lav mixed in with the Hypo Lavs, would have given Rich more headaches than if they were alleles. He could have thought he was breeding two “Hypo” Lavs together, but was actually breeding, a Dilute Lav het Hypo X Hypo Lav or any possible combo and produced Non-Hypo Lavs in the clutches. I suspect if I bred my Sunset X Hypo Lav, I would produce Lavenders het Dilute Hypo, unless they are alleles.

ecreipeoj said:

Although the Dilute/Hypo allele theory is a nice thought, I believe it is much more likely that the cause of the Blue Motleys is an independent gene, that acts like the Dilute Gene in other animals.

Click to expand...

Yep, I've just got "allele on the brain" because of the many other things we've been looking at lately. Marc's cross that didn't produce ghosts is a good start on that. The Pewter X Blue should be helpful too when they hatch... there's a 75% chance of hypo being eliminated from the equation.

BTW I was looking at mouse mutations again today, and there's an anti-dilute that when homozygous masks one of the dilute genes. :grin01:

My crosses need to be changed, too.

Year 2005 Josh x Taylor = 2 snow mots, 4 anery mots, 1 dilute

Year 2006 Josh x Taylor Clutch 1 = 2 snow mots, 2 dilutes, 4 anery mots

Year 2006 Josh x Taylor Clutch 2 = 2 snow mots, 2 dilutes, 5 anery mots

No ghosts from 3 clutches, both parents are 50% poss het hypo, but unproven.

Confusion came last year when I thought that silvery guy was a ghost, but he isn't, not compared to real ghost mots.

I reserved a SBG male form Marc and plan on breeding it to a normal het anery poss het hypo, so I might contribute a tiny bit to the puzzle within 2 or 3 years.... I do have the 'advantage' that my normal het anery has very low risk of throwing in any fancy hets to confuse us cause her parents are not assumed to have been bred by 'serious' breeders with high end morphs. If so, I would be positively suprised!

sean and celia @ corsnakemorphs outcrossed theirs to LA wildcaught females to strengthen the bloodline. im pretty sure he told me he ended up recovering norms, blue motley, pastel motley, motley, anery, and ghost but but i dont remeber too well.


its a whole lot of fun watching this unfold, especially since i was scolded so hard that there was no such thing as blue motleys. :crazy02:

I think there's a world of difference between labeling something after it has been proven versus labeling something without having any kind of explanation as to what it is. For years now there hasn't been anything in the way of breeding trials, just people selling "blue motleys." That doesn't prove they exist.

It's hard to accept a new morph as proven when the only evidence consists of reports that go something like, "I heard that this one guy crossed like this one snake to this other snake one time, and I think he said he got like one of those hatchlings or something, but I'm not really sure." :santa:

If someone told you they had Green Ghosts, would you accept them as just that without any further information? If you asked them "what did you cross to make those" and they said "well, the parents are Green Ghosts from an unknown source," would that convince you?

It's all about predictability. If nobody knows whether or not something can be reproduced, or how it can be reproduced, there will be a lot of skeptical reactions. The same was true for Lava. Nobody wanted to accept it as new, even when Joe Pierce had reported the fact that he had outcrossed/recovered it just like a Mendelian recessive trait, and he had also crossed it to hypo and sunkissed to produce normals and prove it non-allelic.

With ultramel, there were something like 25 different crosses by August of 2004. Many still didn't believe it.

All in all, I think there is a very healthy skepticism in corn morphs. It causes a situation where something claimed as "new" actually has to be proven as new. I don't think that's a bad thing.

The sheet has been updated to include Hurley's additional data. It would be ideal if we can get the same info for all of the crosses listed.

It also seems that in all these Blues, Motley is always in play. With the exception of the seemingly dilute Lav Joe posted, have any non-motley Blues been produced?

Blues . . .

Rob just directed me to this thread. I'm pleased someone is digging into this.

The first time I heard about blue motlies, I asked if they were pastel motlies (aka ghost motlies). I never got a straight answer. Well, I did, but it didn't satisfy me. They merely said they were NOT pastel motlies. I've been a skeptic ever since. Having some now, I definitely conclude that they are phenotypically different from any pastel motlies I've seen so what's going on here in this thread now will tie the knot. . . .eventually.

Serp, thank you for taking this opportunity to point out that we're naming snakes before we even see them at maturity. Not too many serpent species are so metamorphic, and with most of our morph tags being color related, we should be careful not to rush into naming based on the appearance of a hatchling. Rich will tell you how dangerous that is. He named the 'mocha' corn when it was a neonate before seeing the varieties of looks within the morph and their mature colorations. That name subsequently was changed to 'lavender' since lavender more precisely describes the look of the morph. I know everyone is rushing to be the one that discovers or the first to name a "new" corn, but I hope we'll all take a deep breath and not jump to name a corn based on it's hatchling appearance. Wait 'till it's mature and you see the final appearance. Ideally, after breeding trials. Of course, the blues don't change that much from hatch to adult.

Rob and I both bred F1s from hypo lavender X blue motley this year. Mine (purchased from Walter Smith) will be late this year, but I'll report stats as soon as I have open eggs. I don't have a detailed lineage on the blue so don't know what's going on there, regarding hypo A.

BTW, could those stats include gender inventory. Just curious. Also, Sean Bradley has probably been breeding these longer than anyone. Hopefully, he'll be able to join this thread with some statistics.

Stats on the blues on the clutches at least:

2005 clutch - 1 dilute anery motley male

2006 clutch 1 - 2 dilute anery motley females

2006 clutch 2 - 1 male, 1 female dilute motley

This last pair of dilutes are identical in coloration right now. The male isn't even lighter like many males are. They are only 5 feedings in, though, so I'm sure that will change.

I'll try to get some updated pics of the 2 girls from clutch 1 going to Susan and the pair I still have from the second clutch.

This pair has always thrown female heavy clutches, just like their grandmother.

Sex ratios:


2005 Clutch

1 male dilute anery motley
mostly females on the rest, I'll look up the exact numbers
(Parents of these three clutches on upper left and center.)




2006 Clutch 1

2 snow motley females
2 dilute anery mots
1.3 anery mots




2006 Clutch 2

2 snow motley females
1.1 dilute anery mots
1.4 anery mots

Check this out!

Do I have to tell any of you what this is?? Way to go Rob!

breathless. imagin adding diffusion, a solid blue snake? wow

D&LCornSnakes said:

breathless. imagin adding diffusion, a solid blue snake? wow

Click to expand...

Blue Bloods does have a nice ring to it! All it will take to make one, is to create a Dilute Granite. It is going to be very interesting to see what a Dilute Charcoal looks like.

This photo was taken from Robs second clutch that is hatching from Anery Motleys het Dilute Striped.

Sorry! I hadn't realized this thread has progressed so far! Here is the info from my clutches that is lacking:

4/28/05 WWE's Fairy ACR #470 X WWE's Figaro ACR #490 ( both are anery motley het stripe, hypo & snow and are full siblings)
2.0 anery motley
1.0 snow stripe (pulled umbilicus, euthanized)
1.0 ghost stripe
1.2 ghost motley
0.1 blue motley (sporadic eater, eventually died at about 10 months)
0.1 blue(?) stripe (ate only once, eventually euthanized)
0.0.1 snow motley dead in shell

5/7/05 WWE's Spectra ACR #496 (ghost het motley) X WWE's Figaro
1.0 anery
2.0 anery motley
3.3 ghost
1.1 ghost motley
1.0 blue motley (never ate, eventually died)

6/30/06 WWE's Spectra X WWE's Figaro
1.2 anery
0.3 anery motley
3.1 blue motley
(very surprised that not a single ghost hatched out)

6/20/06 WWE's Fiesta ACR #492 X WWE's Fury ACR #494 (both are anery motley het stripe and hypo and are both full siblings to Fairy and Figaro)
1.1 anery striped
1.0 ghost stripe
6.3 anery motley
1.1 ghost motley

I have looked at all my past pairings of related snakes in my collection and, so far, still only Spectra, Fairy and Figaro have produced blues. Some pairings have been basically crossed off the list (Kathlyn X Figaro = no dilute, Styx X Figaro = no dilute, Spirit X Boo = no blue, Fantasia X Boo = no blue, Fantasia X Casper = no blue) I have to test Spirit with Figaro, Fiesta with Figaro, Fury with Fairy and Boo with Fairy (unless I get adult blues to test them with). Fantasia has recently died, but I'll be keeping all of her '06 babies for future possible testing, plus Ariel is a Fantasia daughter by Casper so will need to be tested. And I also will need to test my blues with those I'm getting from Connie, and I'm also looking at purchasing an adult male that sure looks blue in the one pic I've seen of him. And I suppose I'll need to purchase at least a pair from Bayou Reptiles as well (sigh).

Here's a pic of that questionable blue stripe. I only have a couple of pics of her, but this one best shows her color as to what I saw in person. I wasn't sure if it was she was really blue or her color was the result her the stripe. But when compared to the anery stripes I hatched out this year...she looks more blue.