"Blued Steel" Pippies!

[Susan]

After having lost the pair from last year, I've been anxiously awaiting the pipping of 2 clutches. The first clutch didn't produce any "blued steels", so I have to test those parents next year with known producers. However, this second clutch, from the anery motley het stripe and ghost male X ghost het motley female, has totally messed with Murphy and his laws! I see at least 4 potential "blued steels"! There is some differences in the shades, perhaps something similar to the differences between male and female lavenders and hypolavs is happening (will tell you more when they get sexed), but the definate difference from typical anerys and ghosts is present. I do find it sort of weird that not one typical ghost hatchling is in this clutch, making me think that perhaps the "blued steels" are a weird ghost and not a weird anery. I will probably lose my mind by the time the first test clutches ever hatch! I'm just really glad that more have hatched this year and last year wasn't just a fluke!

Third pic has a typical anery sibling for comparison.

 

[jzal8]

gorgeous susan, that is awsome. finally caught a break

 

[scottsquatch]

nice!

Holy cow! That anery mot in the 3rd picture blows my mind! Congrats Susan.

 

[Lore]

What exactly is a "blued steel" I have not heard of this morph.

 

[carol]

I never heard that you lost your first pair! I am so terribly sorry to hear that. Congrats on the new pippies!

 

[Savvy19]

I'm slowly falling in love with Anery's. I'm obsessed with Black and White together... and that one in the 3rd picture is amazing!

 

[Russell]

congrats!

Congratulations Susan!
will be a fantastic project to work on! I'm thinking of embarking on a chocolate anery quest, now that I have some weird anerys...no...maybe they are ghosts...I don't know...LOL! I need a beer...or two...my head hurts...

 

[Susan]

What exactly is a "blued steel" I have not heard of this morph.

I'm not exactly sure what it is, but these seem to be cropping up in a variety of seemingly unrelated collections. I had 2 of these hatch out last year...one from a brother/sister pairing of anery motleys het stripe and ghost. The second came from the same male but out of a ghost het motley female that just happens to be a half-sister to the male (same father). I just remembered that I have yet another clutch to hatch in a couple of days...same male again, but yet another half-sister female (again, same father, but a totally unrelated mother to any of the other snakes in this project).

I recently purchased a 1.3 sibling group which contains 0.2 that have the same look. I have since also made arrangements to obtain the parents of these hatchlings. The parents, by coinicidence (?) are also anery motleys het ghost. And all of the "blued steel" babies have been motleys, so far.

Also, just a few minutes ago, I read mvervest's thread on his silver blue ghosts. I saw the color of that hatchling and almost wet my pants! And the adult is exactly what I imagined one would look like! And being located in Belgium...I really doubt his snakes are related to mine...at least very closely.
Here's a quick link... http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=299034#post299034

The "blued steel" name is my husband's idea, as the color of the very first hatchling was exactly the color of blued steel. He says it's a sort of unique color...not blue grey, or steel blue, but blued steel.

And here are some "dried off" pics I quickly took this morning:

 

[Susan]

And for those who think it's just a ghost, here is an example of the color of the ghosts that I've been hatching out for the past 8 years:

 

[ecreipeoj]

Congratulations!

However, this second clutch, from the anery motley het stripe and ghost male X ghost het motley female, has totally messed with Murphy and his laws! I do find it sort of weird that not one typical ghost hatchling is in this clutch, making me think that perhaps the "blued steels" are a weird ghost and not a weird anery.

Perhaps the reason that you did not get any Ghost in the clutch, is because the Anery Motley het Striped was the father and not the Ghost? It seems likely that he is the one that is het for Blued Corns as well.

I have been following your Blued Steel Corns, due to their resemblance to Blue Motleys. I wonder if they are being caused by the same gene or type of gene. It sure seems like an on/off gene. Have you been able to obtain any Blue Motleys to test against your Blued Steel Corns? I do find it odd that all Blued Corns have been Motleys, but I think that a Blued Normal will definitely be possible. Everybody who has been producing them, have done so from Motleys.

I have several small clutches coming from my Blue Motley male that was out crossed to other Anerys. One clutch has hatched from an Anery het Snow Motley so I do have some Anerys het for Blued. At least, I believe that is the way it will work. I also learned that my Blue Motley is het for Amel which is nice. It will be interesting to see if the Blued effect can be seen in Amels or Snows. A bluish Snow, may be interesting.

I really wanted to get the Blues bred to the Charcoal line, but got all slugs from that cross. Somebody will have to get that cross done someday and the Lavender Line would be great too. I almost think that I have something similar in my Lav line now, with my Sunsets. They have the look I would expect from a Blued Lav.

I produced my first Sunsets from my line of Lavenders, from my Striped Lav Project. This caused me to breed brother and sisters together that were het for Striped Lav and presto, Sunsets. I obtained some Sunset Motleys from Ted Frey, who I found out had also produced the first Lavenders I got way back when, that I bought from Rainwater. When I raised them up, they reproduced several Sunset Motleys. The one if the photo is from 05. My line of Sunsets has proven to be reproducible as well and seems to be an on/off gene. They resemble a Hypo Lav Motley, but are not, which is the same thing that you and others have suggested about the Blueds. They resemble Ghost, but they are not. They seem to be caused by a hypo type gene or dilute gene.

 

[Lore]

I'm not exactly sure what it is, but these seem to be cropping up in a variety of seemingly unrelated collections. I had 2 of these hatch out last year...one from a brother/sister pairing of anery motleys het stripe and ghost. The second came from the same male but out of a ghost het motley female that just happens to be a half-sister to the male (same father). I just remembered that I have yet another clutch to hatch in a couple of days...same male again, but yet another half-sister female (again, same father, but a totally unrelated mother to any of the other snakes in this project).

I recently purchased a 1.3 sibling group which contains 0.2 that have the same look. I have since also made arrangements to obtain the parents of these hatchlings. The parents, by coinicidence (?) are also anery motleys het ghost. And all of the "blued steel" babies have been motleys, so far.

Also, just a few minutes ago, I read mvervest's thread on his silver blue ghosts. I saw the color of that hatchling and almost wet my pants! And the adult is exactly what I imagined one would look like! And being located in Belgium...I really doubt his snakes are related to mine...at least very closely.
Here's a quick link... http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=299034#post299034

The "blued steel" name is my husband's idea, as the color of the very first hatchling was exactly the color of blued steel. He says it's a sort of unique color...not blue grey, or steel blue, but blued steel.

Thank you Susan for explaining. They are stunning, and that link to a full grown one is STUNNING! Definately somthing I'd add to my crew. :cheers:

 

[Hurley]

Well, I'll put these up for viewing and let you draw your own conclusions.
Starting with the Grandparents, I crossed a normal motley het amel, anery to my favorite motley, "SOS", who I got as a yearling ghost motley female that I proved to be an Anery het hypo male... Got him as a yearling and he did look ghost to me, but we know how that goes in anery mots and what did I know, I was still pretty new. LOL Still the coolest motley I've ever owned.

Here's SOS, the grandfather of the hatchlings...

And here is a photo I found of him from the original breeder's website... he was black as night when hatched. Below is a comparison of him with an anery and a ghost, as well.

When I bred him to a ghost het amel,

I got these in 2003:

I also bred him to Gwen, a motley het anery and amel to produce Josh and Taylor. Unfortunately I can't find the folder for SOS x Gwennie. I kept these two back as the lighter siblings hoping that lighter meant they were het hypo. I kept them for their patterns, but I remember there being some variation in lightness and darkness. No hypos, Gwen wasn't het for it.

I have not bred either Josh or Taylor to anything other than each other. Below are the clutches from 2005 and 2 from 2006. Last year I had that light animal and it looked for all the world like a ghost and I called it as such, but I don't think so anymore, especially with the motley influence there...should be more peach-ish/brown-ish.

2005 clutch with Josh and Taylor in the upper left and middle.

Here's the light animal a few sheds later:
(Blued steel?)

And a sibling anery mot:

Here are the 2 clutches from this year. The 2nd clutch I still have all of, so I'll have to get more photos of them as they grow. I'll try to get some updated photos of the first clutch hatchlings for you, Susan.

1st

2nd

 

[ecreipeoj]

Well, I'll put these up for viewing and let you draw your own conclusions. Here's the light animal a few sheds later:
(Blued steel?)

This one looks like a Blued Steel to me and a couple in this year clutch too. Do I see a Normal Patterned Blued Steel in this years clutch? I would assume it could be seen in the Normal Pattern, and be enhanced with the Motley gene.

Blued Steel (AKA Blue Motleys) could be mistaken for Ghost Motleys easily. Add some pink coloration, and they could be mistaken for Pastel Motleys, but boy, I do not think they are the same thing. The blotch color is blue, like all other "Blue" phases of animals. BLUE has more meanings than this color of BLUE in the animal world.

 

[SnakeAround]

Gorgeous snakes and that third pic is super sharp, wow! Did you use a stabilizer for the cam?

 

[Susan]

Joe and Connie...great discussion, pics and ideas! I would really love to test breed to a blue motley as I have a feeling they're the same thing as my blued steels. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's also the same thing that's happening to your Sunset lavs. And I really need to run a search for the breeder in Gainesville who had a clutch of normal and hypo stripes that also had some mid-color hatchlings last year and get an up-date.

Perhaps the reason that you did not get any Ghost in the clutch, is because the Anery Motley het Striped was the father and not the Ghost? It seems likely that he is the one that is het for Blued Corns as well.

I think there was a slight misunderstanding...the male anery motley is het for both stripe and hypo (aka ghost). He produced typical ghosts last year in both clutches that contained blued steels. And yes, he is definately one of the carriers of the blue "gene?". In fact, I believe that it was my original ghost motley male (purchased from Mike's Motleys) that was the carrier of the blue trait. I have many more test breedings yet to do just on my current adults and subadults to see which ones are carriers and which are not.

I will definately be crossing Connie's two female blue motleys with mine, but will probably leave the Josh and Taylor pairing alone for awhile, but they will definately be tested with my line in a few years.

I, too, wonder if the look can be obtained in a normal pattern. I have an '05 normal female with absolutely NO hets that I plan on using to test the blued steels. Those F2 clutches will probably be the clincher as to what exactly we're dealing with. I just hope I have my snake building by then as I'm going to need ALOT of room!

 

[Hurley]

Here are some updated photos on the day. Upper row is the 1st clutch, lower row is the 2nd clutch from Josh x Taylor showing 2 "dilutes" on the left and center with a normal anery mot on the right from each clutch.

The 2 "dilute" anery motleys are getting pink in the background as well, though it is not as noticeable in the photos.

 

[Hurley]

And larger images of the "dilutes"...

 

[ecreipeoj]

And larger images of the "dilutes"...

It does seem to be a gene that acts like a Dilute gene in other animals. We like to use the Mouse Worlds genetics as examples for theories about Corn Snake genetics all the time, such as they have 7 alleles at the amel locus.

They have a gene that they call a Dilute gene, that does pretty much the same thing as this gene is doing that we are seeing in the Blues. I happen to have four animals here that also have a Dilute gene that acts similar, so I have read about the gene, Donkeys, Beagles and of course Rats, and Mice. In all of these animals, the Dilute gene pretty much has the same effect. It seems very likely, that this Dilute gene in Corns, if it proves to be such, will also have a diluted effect on other colors of Corns as well.

Ever since I have seen photos of these Corns, I thought that they may be some type of Dilute gene as well. In this line of Corns, the effects can easily be seen in the Normal Phase. It does seem as if we need to outcross the Blues to a Normal and then see what we can recover.

I think if we do prove out that this is a Dilute gene, then the genetic name will be a slam dunk, but I have a feeling that the Trade Name Game will be a difficult one. I happen to like Blue Corns or Blue Motleys, but I know there will be a great deal of opposite opinions, much like the Diffused debate. This is probably a very similar situation, because a Dilute Lavender will not be blue, but there isn’t 20 years of history either. I am very use to the Blue use already for things like Blue Beagles, Blue Healers, and Blue Rats, so it just seems natural to me.

 

[Hurley]

Yep, they have the dilute gene in Aussies as well, though it's not a recognized color by the AKC. It goes by the name "Slate".

http://www.ashgi.org/color/dilute_aussies.htm

 

[ecreipeoj]

Yep, they have the dilute gene in Aussies as well, though it's not a recognized color by the AKC. It goes by the name "Slate".

I bet the UKC recognizes it.

They seem to describe the different shades in many different ways, such as slate blue, steel blue, slate gray, and blue dilute. Blue dilute seems to be used the most for a diluted black. Lilac is what they like for a diluted brown and Fawn for a diluted tan.

I only breed Blue Rats to feed to my Boas. Why not, they are much more interesting, and I have been working in some interesting patterns as well, such as lighting bolts across their face. I have a male that I am raising that has one blue eye and one black eye. My Blue Rats can vary from a very dark slate gray color to a very light almost lilac color and every shade in-between, but they are not diluted browns. I am still getting some Champagnes in my Blues, which is caused by an additional gene, but I thing it is too much of a good thing. They always get fed first.

I found this small photo of a Blue Beagle in my computer. While looking around on the net, there are Blue Pit Bulls, Blue Dobermans and on and on.