Petco Nightmare (Cohabbing not so great)

Duff said:

This is always my favorite argument. I agree that you can't really prove co-habbed snakes are happy about having roomies, but, at the same time, how can you prove they never are? If you're going to use an argument in a debate, it shouldn't be one that works for both sides.

The other point I love is the whole cannibal thing. Corn snakes are NOT cannibalistic, they are opportunistic. No one knows the story behind this picture. If fed properly and responsibly, would the incident still have happened? Can't be proven, but IMO, they probably weren't feeding responsibly or correctly and so opportunity knocked loud enough for one or more of them. Humans aren't considered cannibalistic, but given enough survival drive, it can happen (remember the story behind the movie Alive anyone?).

I don't co-hab and I would never recommend it, but I also think that arguments should be kept within certain bounds, otherwise people just loose credibility and it turns into back and forth arguing, rather than mature debating. The intolerance of other opinions and viewpoints doesn't help matters either. There are people who would argue that just keeping snakes in captivity diminishes their quality of life and therefore shouldn't be done. Just because something prolongs life, doesn't inherently mean it improves the quality of that time. So who's to say that even just keeping wild animals captive isn't hurting them? For everything that someone feels is correct or ok, there are others who don't. So maybe people should keep that in mind before firing off, or trying to make themselves look cool in the majorities eyes by putting down people with differing opinions.

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Oh myyy.. I truly don't believe that what you've said could have been said better. :crazy02::crazy02::crazy02:

Well since i have no experiance, i guess there is no need for me to post on here any more, maybe in 5 years of so i will have enough experiance to post on here and not be riduculed for my lack of. I guess this forum isnt open to different opions, maybe in 5 years ill decide not to co-hab and than i can start posting with all the anti-cohabs.

or better yet maybe ill have a farm of corn snakes that all live together as one big happy family

My biggest question with regards to cohabbing is... why bother? Truly?? Saying "the snakes are happy" cannot be proven or disproven, so it is not valid in any debate over the topic. So you have to have some sort of biological reason for cohabbing to make sense. So what is it? As for the financial reasons... well I don't buy that either.

I own well over two dozen DIFFERENT SPECIES of animals (not individuals-- SPECIES) and I can honestly say that next to my giant frogs, my three snakes are the easiest and cheapest pets I have. And that is with glass vivs, screen lids, heat pads, special snake litter, water dishes and fancy hides/climbing materials in each tank. I spent about $50 to outfit each of my hatchlings which is less than the amount I spent on the hatchling itself ($60 for one, $80 for the other). And if I had gone the cheaper route and gotten a sweater box with homemade hides, I could easily have knocked about $10-$15 off that cost.

Just to give a sample of expense for the rest of my zoo, I am currently in the process of adding a chinchilla (late b-day present from me to ME!) and have, at this point, spent well over $200 in outfitting a cage for it. This is not including the animal itself. We won't even talk about how much money my dog costs... but I'll drop this one figure... $141 at the vets last week for an EAR INFECTION. So as pets go, snakes can be cared for in the best possible manner, for an insanely low price. So crying about the expense of two vivs and personal finances does not convince me at all.

So given how inexpensive it really is in the grand scheme of things to maintain a solitary animal in a solitary state... I just cannot understand WHY a person would chose to keep their snakes together. It seems to me like doing something just for the sake of being different, with no real rationale behind it. If you cannot afford the extra habitat, which really is not all that expensive, how would you afford the additional snake? Or vet care, should it become ill? :shrugs: I just don't get it.

Add the cost of having a seperate set-up for quarantine, or for if one of the co-habbed snakes becomes ill.........
I really haven't ever heard a good 'for' argument, except 'it's sometimes successful':shrugs:
I have met someone who co-habbed breeding adults successfully, I think he kept them as same-sex pairs until maturity. Their vivs were huge, some were 4' but a couple were bigger, I think 5'. He was an experienced herper, not a beginner, but he didn't recommend it and his hatchlings were all seperate

Hypancistrus said:

I just cannot understand WHY a person would chose to keep their snakes together.

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Because, in their minds, the snakes have a better quality of life when offered companionship. That may or may not be true, but just as anti co-habbers feel strongly it isn't, there are others who feel strongly it is. It can't be proven either way, so who's to say which belief is right or wrong?

Bringing up the solitary nature in the wild may be some proof, but at the same time, it may just be due to competition over food supplies, which is not an issue in captivity. It is well known that snakes will brumate in groups. Anti co-habbers will say it's because they all want the same optimal spot, but who's to say it isn't because they do sometimes prefer some companionship? Unless someone learns how to communicate with a snake, neither side can be proven, so why not be a little more open-minded and understanding of others' beliefs and opinions.

There are plenty who think we're all evil just for keeping wild animals captive, but we ask them to be understanding of our feelings and beliefs on the matter. So why not pass that understanding on to other areas?

And Nanci (and others who feel the same way), it has nothing to do with being all go diversity care bearsy. It's about tolerance and understanding. Different does not always mean bad or worthy of disdain. The world could use a little more of that and less of the close-minded, uncaring vitriol that has led to how many wars and conflicts.

I don't know Duff,

Having had a snake die as a direct result from being co-habbed my feelings are that if you know there are risks, but choose to force your snakes to live with those risks, you aren't much of an owner IMO.
"Companionship" on one side vs possible stress, health risks and death on the other....my goodness any THINKING, RESPONSIBLE, CARING owner should see there is no contest here!

starsevol said:

I don't know Duff,

Having had a snake die as a direct result from being co-habbed my feelings are that if you know there are risks, but choose to force your snakes to live with those risks, you aren't much of an owner IMO.
"Companionship" on one side vs possible stress, health risks and death on the other....my goodness any THINKING, RESPONSIBLE, CARING owner should see there is no contest here!

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And there are risks with just keeping wild animals captive at all. Maybe not to their survival rates or life-spans, but to their quality of life (why do you think they are always looking for escape). But you do that without a second thought, don't you? My point is, you're looking the other way on issues that benefit you, without regard to the animal, so what makes you better than anyone else who does the same? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to open people's eyes and minds.

Anyone who keeps wild animals captive as pets is doing it for selfish reasons. Myself included.

But again, how wild is a corn bred in colors to make survival in the wild impossible and bred in captivity for so many generations?

And, do co-habbed snakes ever try to escape or are they so happy to have companionship they are content where they are?

starsevol said:

But again, how wild is a corn bred in colors to make survival in the wild impossible and bred in captivity for so many generations?

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We're still a loooong way from breeding out their wild instincts.

Are they wild, anyway?

At what point are "we" going to call corns domesticated?

From VMS's education center:

"At some point, the domestication of captive reptiles is going to be accepted as fact. There are already more known morphs of cornsnake available than there are for the parakeet (which is already considered domesticated by most states), With many agencies, evidence of hybridization plays a role in the definition of domestication and with current trends in legislation outlawing the keeping of wildlife, declaring our little herp friends as domestic animals may play a key role in preserving our ability to keep these animals."

Another perspective.

Corn Snakes "The Comprehensive Owner's Guide"; Kathy Love and Bill Love.

"Despite progress toward "domesticating" E.Guttata, herpetoculturists can't yet boast we've achieved that goal 100 percent. That's not admitting defeat, but rather a realistic assessment of an effort that's still very much a work in progress.Corns have been bred for less than half of a century so far. Compared to millennia of refinement spent on dogs, cats, horses, chickens, goldfish, and koi, we've just begun."

Duff said:

This is always my favorite argument. I agree that you can't really prove co-habbed snakes are happy about having roomies, but, at the same time, how can you prove they never are? If you're going to use an argument in a debate, it shouldn't be one that works for both sides.

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Conversely, if you're going to make an assertion in a debate, you have the burden of proof, regardless of the "side" you're taking.

I don't co-hab and I would never recommend it, but I also think that arguments should be kept within certain bounds, otherwise people just loose credibility and it turns into back and forth arguing, rather than mature debating.

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What a coincidence!

By asking for objective proof, I was doing just that, i.e. keeping the debate within proper bounds. Trust me, if I'd have flamed, it would've been as plain and large as the nose on my face.

regards,
jazz

jazzgeek said:

Conversely, if you're going to make an assertion in a debate, you have the burden of proof, regardless of the "side" you're taking.

What a coincidence!

By asking for objective proof, I was doing just that, i.e. keeping the debate within proper bounds. Trust me, if I'd have flamed, it would've been as plain and large as the nose on my face.

regards,
jazz

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I was pointing out the argument, not you. And as far as burden of proof, the "they don't like each other" argument is used by anti-cohabbers just as much as the other way around, so there should be equal burden of proof. Which is my point.

And where in anything that I posted, did I say that you were flaming?

Duff said:

And as far as burden of proof, the "they don't like each other" argument is used by anti-cohabbers just as much as the other way around, so there should be equal burden of proof. Which is my point.

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Agreed. However, I'll defer to:

ZoologyMajor said:

4) Anyone who has ever done any research on snakes would know that most snake species live solitary lives and come together only for mating.

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Duff said:

I was pointing out the argument, not you.

And where in anything that I posted, did I say that you were flaming?

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Nowhere. My bad.

But when I see myself quoted in a response, I presume that the response is directed to me. I'm weird that way.

regards,
jazz