just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?

Hi Everyone. I come home tonight to hear strange sounds coming from my snakes cage when they slither. Also the apt smelled like a wet dog. Squeaky sounds, which is odd indeed considering nothing in their cage is capable of noise. I investigate, and find the shavings are really quite damp over a large area of the cage. (This is a 6 foot long and 18 inch wide enclosure housing two boys). I fed them on March 19th and neither ate with their usual appetite, but I attributed that to Male Snake Spring Fever, and no odd sounds, smells or damp shavings were seen then.

When I changed their wet bedding to dry stuff, I noted that Svengali's belly had some flaky dry cracked looking scales, dryish brownish discolored ones. No redness, no inflammation, no real broken skin. Adderal's belly has three scales that are off looking.

I am thinking due to the damp shavings that they have very mild belly scale rot, and am treating them as if it was so (chlorhexadine washes, maybe a betadine rinse as well when I have a chance to get some). But how quick does it take scale rot to develop? It seems strange that theyd be OK March 19th, and have this now on the 26th? Unless their cage has been damp for a few days? But there were no odd sounds or off smells like there were tonight so Id tend to doubt that. And I have no idea how their cage got so wet. Even if they were both in the water basin, it should not have overflowed like...a flood.

Both snakes have been unusually active now for several weeks (yay, spring). Svengali especially has slithered hither and yon in his tank, spending lots of time in their "snake loft"....a wire cube with 2 inch or so square openings all through it, originally sold as a storage thing that they use for climbing up and through and all around and basking upon. I suppose its also possible he banged up his stomach somewhat, but I tend to doubt that.

Thoughts? Thank you for any thoughts you may have.

Hiya - Just a thought. If their water bowl is quite light then its possible they could of knocked it over. Being spring and all that, our male corn is going crazy at the moment trying to get out and I think he purposely wrecks his cage just to get my attention. Just recently he's been knocking his water bowl over.(which is made out of a strong wood with plastic covering I think, kind of like a serving bowl) This makes his favourite spot really wet and its hard to keep an eye on it if you dont know its happening. I thought it was because he may be too hot so I lowered the temps by 1 or 2 degrees but he still does it. I have read that damp bedding can lead to Scale Rot but I wouldnt have thought it would happen that quickly - As long as he keeps warm and dry, and have you checked your water bowl isn't leaking? Sorry - I am not a professional and still learning about our snakes after 2.5 years but hopefully someone on here has some more accurate knowledge Have you got a pic?

Scale rot could probably take hold in a few days if the conditions were right for the bacteria to multiply - warm and damp/wet do sound just right, especially if it was so bad that it was making your apartment smell. The scale effect does sound like scale rot. You need to change everything out and empty the tank. Disinfect anything which can be cleaned, and the entire tank. Then replace the substrate with newspaper before putting the hides etc back in, but make sure they're all completely dry first. You'll need to treat the snakes as you suggest (Betadine worked for mine) but you'll also need to keep the tank and fittings dry and disinfected until the scale rot is clear. I'd suggest swapping to a much smaller water bowl while the rot is clearing up.

Two adult males cohabbing can easily be fighting, which can be very hectic. Just because they never have before, doesn't mean it will never happen and it's mating season right now - the height of the period when they'd be competing for mates in the wild. All it would take would be a couple of thrashing bouts in the water bowl and everything would be soaked as you describe. I'd strongly advise separating them as soon as possible before one of them is injured.

Also, double-check what kind of wood the shavings are from. If they're from pine or a soft resinous wood, then this could be causing extra irritation. However I don't think that's the main problem for you.

Thanks bitsy and disgurlchar,
Your advice here is deeply appreciated. Their water basin is indeed large...its one of the plastic basin things they give patients in hospitals. Filled halfway, it holds a gallon of water. So its possible they were splashing water about and around.

I do know all the pro and con arguments on cohabiting snakes. My special needs crew are in separate cages (because their special needs make it impossible to house em together). When I compare the two groups, the cohabiting snakes seem ...happier, alert, just content....somehow. I also do not have space for two 6 feet long tanks and these two are too long to be housed in a 55 gallon enclosure (Svengali himself is 6 feet long and Adderal is 5 feet a few inches).

Thank you both very much again for your help/ advice here.

Bitsy is right, what's going on is probably fighting.

I strongly suggest you read this: Can I Keep Multiple Snakes in One Enclosure?

Here's the thing, cohabbing is only a huge deal because 99.9% who try to do it, do it horribly wrong.

Huge wardrobe sized tanks where the snakes have many warm and cool spots to choose from is totally fine. It sort of mimics overlapping territories in the wild. VERY VERY few people actually do it that way. (I'm talking huge, zoo level sizes type enclosures)

What you see 99.9% of the time is people being too cheap and wanting more snakes than they have space for. Jamming two full grown corn snakes into a 20 gallon tank is cruelty. They are forced to be right in each others face at all times. Even two adults in a 50 gallon is not acceptable. Still not nearly enough room to get away from each other.

Cohabbing like that can lead to stress, cannibalism, premature breeding, unwanted breeding, illness and death. That is not speculation, it's a fact. There are many threads on this site with evidence of cohabbing misfortunes.

Snakes live alone in the wild, numerous scientific researches studies prove it. They may have some areas of territory that overlap, and once in a while a few may share a den, but then they move on. Having a few kilometers of land to run around on and once in a while bump into a mate or other snake, is not the same as being stuffed in a tank with other snakes.

Snakes do not form bonds, cuddle, or mourn for cagemates. That is people putting anthropomorphic feelings on animals. Snakes are very basic creatures. They do not want company, it's not how snakes work. They are not social animals.

Cohabbing done strictly for the keeper's benefit. The is no health or well being benefit to the snake.

Keeping a pair together for a stretch of time during breeding is okay depending how it's done. You have to keep a regular check on them and make sure you are not seeing aggression. There have been instances where males have killed females, and females killing males. Don't keep them together longer than necessary. In the wild they mate and move on, they want their own space.

The bottom line is we as keepers should strive to provide the best care possible for our pets. Snakes get exactly zero benefit from cohabbing, so why would any caring keeper do it? It makes no sense.

I agree with what was said above. Please, do the right thing for your snakes and put them in separate enclosures.

So...both Adderal and Svengali look somewhat (a little) better today, and Svengali truly hated his iodine bath. Six feet of affronted snake outrage is not much fun; I got pretty soaked myself (happy his ire did not extend to biting). Adderal seemed to enjoy it, but drank some of that water. Now I find myself wondering how much iodine will kill a snake. Adderal seems intent on trying to cook himself, he burrows under the shavings and lies ON the undercage heat pad. Ive had to remove him on occasion because his body temperature seems so hot to me and if he is overheated, he will lack the sense to move on his own accord.

BloodyBaroness, My snakes are not crammed into a small cage, that is and would be cruelty. They share a massive 6 foot long enclosure by 18 inches wide by 20 inches tall. It has a loft space for them to climb in and around, adding to the square footage of the large cage. So, your belief that I am being cruel to my animals in that manner is quite unfounded. I believe in giving animals as much space as I can. I have seen their male snake in spring displays, and there is no aggression, no hostility. No biting...they simply try to mate with each other. It inevitably fails. It fails because my two snakes are male. So, I do not have to worry about them breeding...unless biology seriously goes astray. Oh, my pets do not come from pet stores. I get them from reputable breeders who DO know how to tell the boy snakes from the girl snakes.

I do not have to worry about cannibalism. They are in a Jewish home; no one starves in a Jewish household <grins/ smiles/ jokes> . They get fed regularly, well, and with copious numbers of thawed mice-icles. I have never in all the many many years I have been owning snakes, had a problem that could be solely related to cohabbing them.

I believe there is a benefit to the snake, so I will continue to do so. It is a poor comparison group as my cohabbers are the healthy ones and the ones housed separately (each in a 55 gallon; I do NOT stint my creatures when it comes to space) are my special needs guys, but my cohabbing snakes eat better, look better, and generally have better dispositions than my special needs snakes in isolation.

My healthy just purchased snakes always start in isolation before they are introduced in the large tank....and, in isolation they arent as friendly as they are when cohabiting. Adderal was aggressive and hostile when I first purchased him and he was in quarantine isolation, he is tractable, docile, and gentle now and the behavior did change with cohabbing as well as with training and frequent handling. The same holds true for Svengali. Then again, their handling and "training" program is rather intense. I tend to turn obnoxious creatures into quite gentle and trusting ones. I do see my snakes curled up together and seemingly liking each others company. If they did not, they could easily escape and choose to be alone as there are two hides in my huge spacious cage (one per snake). As I believe they do get a benefit from being in a large spacious cage, it will continue. That is, unless you think the 6 foot snake would be happiest alone in a 20 gallon long? I think he would prefer the larger enclosure...and so would his 5 feet long cagemate.

I know the risks. This thread was about probable scale rot, caused likely by an upset water basin, not for you to write a lecture to me about cohabiting snakes in what I found to be a rather sanctimonious patronizing tone; a tone which was most sincerely unappreciated. I realize that you were attempting to give aid and advice, but it came across very wrongly to me as you seemed to be insinuating that I am a) cruel to my pets and b) not caring for them well or do not care for them. And both scenarios could not be further from the truth of the matter.

Inflection and tone can not be conveyed by written media. Its possible I am misreading what you intended when you wrote that. Please let me know if that is the case. I may indeed owe you a sincere apology. I do appreciate the attempt to help, just did not like what I thought of as the intonation.

Add in one more for the separate the snakes column. I put in two males together (under the assumption one was female) and it didn't click why my known male was so stressed out. And that was just for 30 minutes supervised. Snakes don't need friends or flatmates; I have a viv comparable in dimensions (if you turn it on its side, it's 6ft tall, 3ft long, 2ft wide) to yours and I still would not house two snakes in it. We are talking ZOO like enclosures for it to be semi-ok.

Where's Beth?!

We are trying to help you do right by your animals. Everyone wants to have the most quality time possible with their pets.

There is a reason why cohabbing is not done by all keepers, it's not fair to the animals at all. There are many many good reasons not to practice cohabitation, and zero reasons to do it. It ONLY benefits the keeper, it goes against the very core nature of the snakes.

In your own words above you described several clear stress and territorial issue markers. The tank you are describing is not larger enough. Males will fight over space.

Would you rather have 2 stressed out snakes in one tank that live for 8 years or 2 happy snakes in separate tanks that live for 18 years?

If you profess to know the risks, as you say, then why on earth are you doing this to your pets?

Everyone here is trying to help you.

If you elect to keep doing this it's not a matter of if you will have problems, it's a matter of when. It honestly sounds like it's already happening.

Lyreiania, bottom line what you are doing is killing your snakes.
The spilled water dish coupled with a lowered immune system is what is causing your scale rot. Snakes are not designed by nature to live together, and what you are doing to them is cruelty. You have probably already cut their livespans short by what you are doing.
Science and mother nature say that your snakes need to be seperated.
What you think about it really is quite wrong.
You are killing them.

This problem you are having right now, you wouldn't be having at all if you were keeping them properly.

Bottom line, they are yours to abuse and kill.

But most of us here don't like people who do that sort of thing......

Actually, snakes who are kept singly get scale rot as well. So its rather false to say that had they been in separate cages, this would not have happened. And as far as the event itself, mild scale rot is hardly the end of the world. I think you all are making a mountain from a molehill. All I wondered was how fast does scale rot happen in snakes? My two in separate cages have upset their water dishes. I have spilled their water dishes. Things happen. I keep my cages quite well, and anyone can have an spilled water dish. It does not constitute bad husbandry. It is not abuse. I do not agree with your opinions on this issue and yes, my snakes are mine to house as I choose. They are mine, to abuse if I so choose, as you wrote. But since when is providing a clean, large cage, ample food, and needed medical care abuse? Luckily I have no intention of nor am I abusing them by housing them together in a spacious and clean tank. Abuse would be if I denied them care. I do no such thing.

I do agree a spilled water dish caused the scale rot. As for lowered immune system, no way to know that. Perhaps their shavings had been wet for longer than I realized. Svengali has lived with me since I purchased him in November of 2006. Hes been cohabiting for 6 years? He certainly does not look dead or near dead to me. One of my other snakes was 14 or thereabouts when he died...of complications from an injury, not of scale rot or anything related to cohabitation. So, in my experience, I have never seen cohabitation lead to bad. I know the risks meaning that I see what you have wrote, did my own research online...but my life experience with it is not in line with what I read, and plenty of people cohabit snakes without issue. So, I do what I note for myself...and my animals...to be what I view as best.

Its OK to have differing opinions on a wide range of issues, and BloodyBaroness I thank you for your clarifying words.

Its not, however OK to call something abuse...or "killing my snakes" when its clearly not so. Words such as "abuse" or "killing" should not be words that is tossed about lightly.

I was always under the impression prolonged and constant stress can contribute to a lower immune system.

Lyreiania said:

Actually, snakes who are kept singly get scale rot as well. So its rather false to say that had they been in separate cages, this would not have happened. And as far as the event itself, mild scale rot is hardly the end of the world. I think you all are making a mountain from a molehill. All I wondered was how fast does scale rot happen in snakes? My two in separate cages have upset their water dishes. I have spilled their water dishes. Things happen. I keep my cages quite well, and anyone can have an spilled water dish. It does not constitute bad husbandry. It is not abuse. I do not agree with your opinions on this issue and yes, my snakes are mine to house as I choose. They are mine, to abuse if I so choose, as you wrote. But since when is providing a clean, large cage, ample food, and needed medical care abuse? Luckily I have no intention of nor am I abusing them by housing them together in a spacious and clean tank. Abuse would be if I denied them care. I do no such thing.

I do agree a spilled water dish caused the scale rot. As for lowered immune system, no way to know that. Perhaps their shavings had been wet for longer than I realized. Svengali has lived with me since I purchased him in November of 2006. Hes been cohabiting for 6 years? He certainly does not look dead or near dead to me. One of my other snakes was 14 or thereabouts when he died...of complications from an injury, not of scale rot or anything related to cohabitation. So, in my experience, I have never seen cohabitation lead to bad. I know the risks meaning that I see what you have wrote, did my own research online...but my life experience with it is not in line with what I read, and plenty of people cohabit snakes without issue. So, I do what I note for myself...and my animals...to be what I view as best.

Its OK to have differing opinions on a wide range of issues, and BloodyBaroness I thank you for your clarifying words.

Its not, however OK to call something abuse...or "killing my snakes" when its clearly not so. Words such as "abuse" or "killing" should not be words that is tossed about lightly.

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But your cage is not big enough.
What you are putting your snakes through is cruelty.
In nature, when an animal shows distress it is singled out as prey, so snakes are stoic when they are suffering, just like yours
Lowered immune systmes are caused by stress, stress is caused by.....co habbing!
You really are killing your snakes. I really don't care whether my saying that bothers you or not, it is the truth. You say you don't deny them care, but what you are denying them what they really need, solitude. You are denying them a BASIC need, something as important as food and water and shelter. You are denying them what they need to BE snakes, and act as they are supposed to act, and live how they are supposed to live.
On a very basic level, snakes are not meant to live together. In nature, they never see each other except in breeding season.

Imagine if you were locked in a room with someone you couldn't stand. You had to face this person every single day with no way out ever for the rest of your life. You can't eat, go to the bathroom, do anything without bumping into someone you hate. And you can't show it, or you know you will die. You have to hold it in, forever. No way out.
That is what you are doing to your snakes, and it is cruel.

What you are doing is just like saying "I know the risks of letting my baby ride unrestrained in a car. Sure, he could die. But I like doing it this way. He seems happy and doesn't cry from being in the car seat".
You are just as ignorant. Actually, no, you know the risks and you just don't care....

Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael

By my calculations, your viv is a bit over 110 gallons, without a lot of height to help extend the footprint vertically (yes, I know they aren't truly arboreal, but space is space). For two large males, this just doesn't seem to be enough space. We all tend to anthropomorphize our reptiles - I'm as guilty as the next person - and we want to think their "emotional" responses are real, but this is just not the case. Your guys aren't better off because they share space; they are better because your basic husbandry is excellent, because you care about and for them. The advice you've been given about separating them is sound, regardless of how it has been stated or received; do not dismiss it because of your emotional response to it. Ultimately the choice is yours, but if it were me in this spot I'd separate them. Either way, good luck to you and the two boys...

Isoldael said:

Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael

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So you just don't care that her snakes are exhibiting ritual fighting? IN THE WILD the defeated male would leave the dominant male's territory. Here, he is forced to stay, and be stressed. The dominant male is stressed, too, by continually having to defend his territory. Stress lowers both snakes' immune systems.

What benefit is there to these two snakes by cohabbing them? NONE.

What benefit is there to these two snakes by providing separate enclosures? EVERYTHING.

It's ridiculous to speculate on what could or could not be causing scale rot when there is a much greater danger to the snakes already present.

Lyreiania, the one thing I love about this forum is that everyone tries to help the best they can. The advise is ALWAYS there..However, some forget their way is not the only way and advise gets heated. While many disagree with co-habbing (obviously), I genuinely respect this is not the topic requested. I hope your snakes get better soon, and the one who drank a bit of iodine doesn't have any issues My snake always poops in the bathtub, then has a huge drink and scares me. Hey, some believe giving your snake a soak is unnecessary and stressful, and others believe snakes drinking tap water is dangerous: There's many opinions regarding corn snake care, ultimately it's your choice on what you believe is best and sometimes it's a trial and error journey...

I agree with Isoldael- I have never myself dealt with scale rot, however from what I've read, it's best to switch their substrate to paper towel (changing it daily?) and keep their viv extremely clean to avoid bacteria making matters worse. Wishing you the very best xx

Nanci said:

So you just don't care that her snakes are exhibiting ritual fighting?

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Actually, nothing I've read here proves that they are ritually fighting. Mounting each other may be seen as fighting in other species, but if they are actually trying to MATE (which is different) then I don't see that as fighting. I mean, my male corn (who is housed alone) has tried to mount and breed with a piece of wood. Are you saying I should remove this piece of wood because he's ritually fighting over space?

Again, I appreciate that you have a different opinion about cohabbing, but there is no need to force it upon others in a thread that isn't even closely related to cohabbing.

Stress is related to cohabbing. But that's okay- you can make the choice for your snakes when they can't make it for themselves. They are your animals to....care for.

Isoldael said:

Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael

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All this post tells me is that animal cruelty is a common practice in the Netherlands...I don't care how many people are "doing it wrong", it is still wrong!