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Scale less Corns anyone?

BT41042 said:
I truely wish I would have never posted this project on this board...
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Why? Are you super-sensitive? I appreciate your original post, and most of the discussion has been interesting. I found this thread to be thought-provoking. It gets a thumbs-up from me, BT.
 
Roy Munson said:
Why? Are you super-sensitive? I appreciate your original post, and most of the discussion has been interesting. I found this thread to be thought-provoking. It gets a thumbs-up from me, BT.
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Super - sensitive - Nope...I'm a big boy...Just not worth the hassle...Not worth trying to convince people it's not a hybrid...Not worth getting lenched on a forum for a project that I happen to like...It's all good man -
BT
 
I absolutly disagree in breeding "defective" animals on purpose. Because that is what this is... a scale defect in which they are removed completely.

That aside, I can see why is of interest and purposley being bred however this snake would ONLY thrive in captivity. How the heck is a snake supposed to climp vertically if it cannot grip on with it's belly scales? A scaleless corn doesn't have to worry about rough terrain, UV rays and "sunburn", hunting live rodents etc in captivity. It's shoved in a box and has nothing to worry about. The only thing I can think of is issues with heat. I would be extremely scared to provide a scaleless animal with a heat lamp...

There are scaleless beardies (purposeley bred) which often do not thrive in captivity due to them needing high amounts of UV and temperatures over 100F. They simply burn...

A lavenderbloodredstripeyglitterbumfluff corn can survive in the wild. Perhaps it doesn't have the same camouflage ability as a locality okeetee but it's still a "normal" corn snake in every other aspect.
 
It gets a thumbs-up from me said:
I agree with Dean, great post man!! Whether people like the snake or not, it's got people thinking and expressing their opinions, look how many pages the thread has grown in just one day, must be close to a record!!

Just to add my 2 cents worth, I think it's hypocritical of ANY breeder, whether breeding for fun or for money to say it's cruel. Humans are, generally, by nature cruel, keeping any animal in captivity is cruel and there is NO difference between keeping a scale-less snake and one with scales as long as the snake is healthy, cared for and comfortable. If any one feels that strongly about it, why they keeping "pet' snakes, let them go!!

I think it's beautiful.
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BT41042 said:
Super - sensitive - Nope...I'm a big boy...Just not worth the hassle...Not worth trying to convince people it's not a hybrid...Not worth getting lenched on a forum for a project that I happen to like...It's all good man -
BT
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I think I actually changed my mind over the course of the thread. I think that's a cool thing. :) The hybrid speculation never ends, man. It's not limited to new stuff either. I sold a normal, anery, ghost and snow to someone, they posted pics, and we had some joker suspecting that they were hybrids (based on zip, nada, nothing). There was a recent discussion where the value of a certain project was debated, when really, it all came down to subjectivity. That's just the way it goes in an open discussion forum. Don't worry about it, and don't let it discourage you.
 
Tula_Montage said:
A lavenderbloodredstripeyglitterbumfluff corn can survive in the wild. Perhaps it doesn't have the same camouflage ability as a locality okeetee but it's still a "normal" corn snake in every other aspect.
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Exactly my point - this is not about a new color morph. This is a deleterious gene that will even have its problems in captivity (heat absorption, moisture retention, etc.)

BT41042 said:
Keep on reading your books - Judging what you have not seen, held, kept or experienced for yourself...I know - I know - I'm trash for wanting a unnatural freak of a mutant snake...Let the lenching continue...
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I see, now we're going down the "well you haven't experienced it for yourself, so you have no opinion" road. This is not necessary man. If you feel comfortable with this mutation, knock yourself out dude - you're danm right that I'll never buy into it though. And I don't need to experience it for myself, there is already well documented proof (scaleless pines, texas rats, etc) that this gene is deleterious even in captivity. But, just because I (and about half the people here) think this is an absolute abomination that needs to be culled, not propagated, doesn't mean you won't have success with it. We all have our own perspectives, and so does the market. I just don't think this will be the "next big thing".
 
Tula_Montage said:
IA lavenderbloodredstripeyglitterbumfluff corn can survive in the wild. Perhaps it doesn't have the same camouflage ability as a locality okeetee but it's still a "normal" corn snake in every other aspect.
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Yeah, but in both animals you are breeding for a defect from its normal condition. One is breeding the normal color out and the other is breeding scales out. Both are defects and both will probably have their limitations in the natural environment...but last I checked not too many of us are breeding our snakes to let them go into the wild someday....:sidestep:

That being said, if the mutant condition thrives in captivity in a healthy way, I don't see the argument against it. If the animal is not in pain or has some other detrimental condition then I think it is fine keeping them.
 
mikehayn said:
Just to add my 2 cents worth, I think it's hypocritical of ANY breeder, whether breeding for fun or for money to say it's cruel. Humans are, generally, by nature cruel, keeping any animal in captivity is cruel and there is NO difference between keeping a scale-less snake and one with scales as long as the snake is healthy, cared for and comfortable. If any one feels that strongly about it, why they keeping "pet' snakes, let them go!!
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That's a lot of strong feeling in that paragraph. I disagree that keeping animals in captivity is, by its very act, cruel - but that is a bigger discussion than one on naked corn snakes, so I'll leave that one.

I agree that as long as the snake is healthy and comfortable that is the main thing - but is it the only thing? If the lifespan of the animal is shortened, is that unacceptable? How much shortening of lifespan would be acceptable? Are they capable of breeding? Does it stop natural expression of behaviour? If so, does it disable it "too" much to be ethical? Elle mentioned the snake probably can't climb vertically, but to be honest most large scale corn snake facilities I've seen don't really allow for vertical climbing in corns, instead using quite shallow tubs - so is that really a disability, or does the lack of ability not really matter in an environment where the ability would not be used?

We all love defective animals - but we all have our own limits on what we view as acceptable. I like snakes with defective melanin production, and I consider them acceptable and fine to own. A dog with the same mutated, defective gene I would consider unacceptable as the same defect produces an animal I consider unethical to produce. Hairless dogs sometimes have dental defects, but properly bred it doesn't affect quality of life, and so I personally consider well bred Chinese Crested dogs to be desirable, while at the same time I would protest the breeding of a hairless rat that could not lactate for its own offspring.

mikehayn said:
I think it's beautiful.
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Me too. But its beauty has to be a starting point on making up ours minds, rather than a decision maker.
 
toyah said:
I agree that as long as the snake is healthy and comfortable that is the main thing - but is it the only thing?
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Moreover, how do we know that it is comfortable? I can't imagine it would be. Has anyone considered the potential ramifications of the lack of an ocular scale for an animal that spends its life on its belly? I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine that being comfortable for an animal that can't blink.
 
As a fairly large breeder of corns i have to admit that i find the pictures startlingly attractive. The health and care issues are a definite point of discussion but I do happen to have a little bit of firsthand knowledge about a couple of the points that have been brought up

1. Dr Bechtel was working with scaleless texas rats decades ago. as to their potential longevity, there are specimens in excess of 15 years of age right here in Florida. I have seen and handled these animals several times. The animals have always been outwardly healthy. Decreased lifespan does not seem to be an issue.

2. Like any mutation that changes the norm for an animal, there are undoubtedly side issues that can be a concern However, there have been more than one subadult with this mutation found in the wild. a few yellow rats have been collected from the south Okeechobee region. Those animals did manage to survive and grow for extended periods. It would lead one to believe that the animals do adapt to some extent. From a camouflage point, it is a far less serious negative than amelanism

While i agree that I am not really planning on running out and sinking a fortune into them, I do think that as captive bred animals they show a large amount of potential. I have dealt, over the years, with a lot of breeders/ keepers who were horrified that anyone would breed a recessive color mutation at all. There stance was that it should be the normal wild color morph only with no room for aesthetic alteration. The topic under discussion is the exact same premise, just taken one more rung up the ladder.

It all boils down to personal preference and choice though. like em...buy em. Don't like em...don't buy em.
 
So whats next guys? Specifically breeding for eyeless corns (if it was a recessive trait?).

You know, because theres a handful of adult specimens out there that are perfectly healthy.
 
Suncoast Herps said:
It all boils down to personal preference and choice though. like em...buy em. Don't like em...don't buy em.
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In a case like this, I think there is far more that needs to be considered... like, 3 generations down the line. Say someone breeds a het for scaleless to a non-het, making poss het babies. This breeder sells them as poss het, and honestly represents them. Another person buys a pair, one with the het and one without. They breed the snakes, producing no scaleless snakes, so they assume the parents don't have the het - problem is, one does. Which means half the babies do. These babies get sold, produce other babies, half of which have this mutation, and eventually, someone like me breeds them together, hoping for some very cool PLANNED morphs, only to find that this abomination has been propagated and is now in my own collection. I would cull every one of the babies, and permanently retire the adults. How fair is that?

I think there is a lot more to consider than just "if you don't like, don't buy." I'm with Tula on this one... next it will be eyeless corns, then tailless corns, and who knows what else. The ability of the animal to survive under captive conditions does not, IMHO, mean that it is not suffering.
 
Tula_Montage said:
So whats next guys? Specifically breeding for eyeless corns (if it was a recessive trait?).

You know, because theres a handful of adult specimens out there that are perfectly healthy.
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I think you have to look at that differently - Scaleless and Eyeless are two different things. Corns without eyes would most likely not be able to function normally, they wouldn't be able to hunt properly. Whats stopping a corn without scales from acting like a corn?
 
It's the same difference. A corn with no scales in the wild would be just as vuerable as a corn with no eyes in the wild. Afterall, this is apparently down to their ability to thrive in captivity.
 
Tula_Montage said:
It's the same difference. A corn with no scales in the wild would be just as vuerable as a corn with no eyes in the wild. Afterall, this is apparently down to their ability to thrive in captivity.
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But as others have already pointed out - amels are not great at surviving in the wild as well simply because of their color, and we don't have any problem breeding those.
 
Invictus said:
In a case like this, I think there is far more that needs to be considered... like, 3 generations down the line. Say someone breeds a het for scaleless to a non-het, making poss het babies. This breeder sells them as poss het, and honestly represents them. Another person buys a pair, one with the het and one without. They breed the snakes, producing no scaleless snakes, so they assume the parents don't have the het - problem is, one does. Which means half the babies do. These babies get sold, produce other babies, half of which have this mutation, and eventually, someone like me breeds them together, hoping for some very cool PLANNED morphs, only to find that this abomination has been propagated and is now in my own collection. I would cull every one of the babies, and permanently retire the adults. How fair is that?

I think there is a lot more to consider than just "if you don't like, don't buy." I'm with Tula on this one... next it will be eyeless corns, then tailless corns, and who knows what else. The ability of the animal to survive under captive conditions does not, IMHO, mean that it is not suffering.
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Again, as I stated before, the scenario that you posted could apply equally to any recessive trait. There are a lot of purists out there who would do the exact same thing if an Amel popped up in a line. It is simply a matter of degree.

By using words such as "abomination" you have made it clear that you are 100% firm in your stance. I get that and i believe everyone else does to. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But this thread has aptly illustrated that a large number do not share your view.

I am not espousing that the captive corn population needs to immediately be swapped out for scaleless animals. I am simply stating that, based on the info we have on this particular trait, it does not seem to have any catastrophic negative consequences and i believe it has a place in captive propogation.
 
Tula_Montage said:
It's the same difference. A corn with no scales in the wild would be just as vuerable as a corn with no eyes in the wild. Afterall, this is apparently down to their ability to thrive in captivity.
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While I definitely disagree with this analogy, i am curious on what your basis for making it was?
 
Tula_Montage said:
I mention the point about captivity because this what the issue is about, Breeding and keeping in captivity...
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Sorry I wasn't clear. My question related to you considering a lack of eyes and a lack of scales to be equivalently debilitating traits. I would be more inclined to class scaleless with amelanism as a trait which would threaten a snakes existance in the wiild.
 
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