questions about morphs

darkpbstar · Apr 19, 2005

ok so I have a female normal and female okeetee and I was just wondering what bred with these woudl make what. Or what would be most cool looking to breed to have the best outcome? I'd like to breed them after a while, they are still young, one is 1 year and 8 months, the ohter is only 9 months, but eventually I'd love to have little corns from my first two, and keep the family going on forever. thanks.

Vinman · Apr 19, 2005

no true okeetees you will have normals. Okeetee is not a mutation it is a localitly. Some might look like okeetees so you can call them okeetee phase

Joejr14 · Apr 19, 2005

Vinman said:
no true okeetees you will have normals. Okeetee is not a mutation it is a localitly. Some might look like okeetees so you can call them okeetee phase

Semantics.

If it looks like an okeetee, it's an okeetee.

Would you call a butt ass ugly normal from the Hunt Club an okeetee?

Menhir · Apr 19, 2005

Vinman said:
Okeetee is not a mutation it is a localitly.

Joejr14 said:
If it looks like an okeetee, it's an okeetee.

Would you call a butt ass ugly normal from the Hunt Club an okeetee?

I think you should both change your semantics

If you just say Okeetee and mean the locality, it's no matter how they look, it's just the place where you collected them.
Imho - Okeetee is most of the time used for the Okeetee-Phase and therefore Joe is right, it's the look that counts.

You won't find a male that produces "cool" or "rare" Offspring with both of them. If you want nice Okeetee-Phase, get one nice male. I'm quite shure that you can also produce nice normals with that male and the other female.

Vinman · Apr 19, 2005

Menhir & joejr14 when you get a animal that is from pure Jasper Co. stock that is a okeetee I dont care what the animal looks like. whem a animal looks like a perfect okeetee ( big black borders) if it is not a pure jasper Co. stock it is a okeetee phase . just like miami phase there is a dirffrenance between a pure miami and a miami phase most corns in the hobby are not pure miami that is why we call miami phase. only true miami are called miami the rest are called miami phase. This is the only way of makeing sure that if a person that wants a pure okeetee gets what they want. this is why we use the term phase the loves are thinking of droping the name okeetee and useing the name classic corn. by using the term phase is the only way to distingush between a pure and a look a like. To some people dont care if it is pure or not and then you have the pureist.It is more professional to use the term phase. since most people do not have pure okeetees. Another thing the okeetee look goes from SC to north Fl . So if i catch a corn in Jacksonville Fl with thick black borders and a bright orange back round then it is a okeetee, NO it is a Jacksonville corn with a okeetee pattren hence the term okeetee phase. So the snake would be a pure Jacksonville corn in okeetee phase. this whole thing is stupid if it is a okeetee then it is from Jasper Co. if not it is just a normal pretty corn. the name okeetee is a localaty and people should use the right terms. Most abuse the term okeetee that does not make it right!!!

Traci1 · Apr 19, 2005

my opinion that I posted in another thread....

I think it's that too many sellers are labeling every normal as an Okeetee, and the "newbie" buyers don't know any better. Now of course they could aways say it's a locality Okeetee, but I sure wish they'd just name them according to the area of origin. "Jasper County Corns" for example. Save the Okeetee or Okeetee phase name for the "look" and name the locality corns by the area from which they originated. Just my opinion.

I think most people are thinking of that "ideal look" when they think of an Okeetee, so in my opinion naming the locality animals based on where they originated from would make things a lot easier. Again, just my opinion.

Hurley · Apr 19, 2005

the name okeetee is a localaty and people should use the right terms. Most abuse the term okeetee that does not make it right!!!

That's your opinion and definition. Language is an ever evolving form. The term "Okeetee" has taken on additional meanings, whether you choose to acknowledge them or accept them. Okeetee is used to define a locality and I have no beef with this and I doubt many do. For those that value the locality of an animal, specifying "Locality Okeetee" helps drive home their meaning. Specifying "Locality Okeetee from Jasper county" or "from the Okeetee Hunt Club" is even better.

On the flip side, the term Okeetee has come to also be related to a look, a color phase. Whether or not you agree with it, it's become reality. The majority of the time we hear the name Okeetee any more, it is related to the color phase of the animal, regardless of locality unless locality is specified.

What you call abuse of the term, I call evolution of language. Right or wrong is an opinion of yours, you're entitled to it. I am entitled to continue to happily call Okeetee phased animals Okeetees and think that I am right to do so. I think neither opinion is wrong, but telling everyone else that they have to abide by your definition because you say so...that's wishful thinking. Good luck to you on that. The market will decide the lingo. The people in the hobby will decide the lingo.

E. g. guttata · Apr 19, 2005

Sorry vin, but I have to disagree with your definition of an okeetee. Now, an okeetee CAN be classified as the animal from that locality, but how much longer will that last?? You can't go catch any more from the hunt club, so then it will have to change to "from locality stock" (which I have seen). How long will that last? I'm not sure that, even with the registry opening here soon, that this definition will last too long at all. However, defining an okeetee by the look of the snake. You may disagree with this, but it seems to me that people are breeding for that specific look more than locality. I have yet to see a nasty okeetee. They all follow the same guidlines, bright orange background, dark saddles, wide black boarders. Show me an okeetee that is purely locality that doesn't follow these guidelines. Better yet, show me an okeetee from your PERSONAL stock that doesn't follow those guidelines. ANYONE show me one locality okeetee from their stock that doesn't follow those guidelines. I would really love to see someone prove that the locality of the animal matters more than the look. Until someone can show me that an okeetee they own is ugly as sin, then I will continue to call snakes okeetee purely by look.

Serpwidgets · Apr 19, 2005

I think Joe Pierce put it best when he said that what people are calling "pure locality Okeetees" are actually Okeetee Phase corns that were collected from the Hunt Club.

If 95% of the population uses the word to mean a look, then within that population, that is the implied meaning of the word. This is called context. Any word can have different meanings depending on the context in which it's used, and "Okeetee" is no exception.

Serpwidgets · Apr 19, 2005

darkpbstar said:
ok so I have a female normal and female okeetee and I was just wondering what bred with these woudl make what. Or what would be most cool looking to breed to have the best outcome?

If you like something in particular about a normal, breed it to a normal with similar desireable characteristics. This will give you the best chance to produce offspring with similar characteristics, or even improve on what it is you like about them.

Vinman · Apr 19, 2005

On the flip side, the term Okeetee has come to also be related to a look, a color phase. Whether or not you agree with it, it's become reality. The majority of the time we hear the name Okeetee any more, it is related to the color phase of the animal, regardless of locality unless locality is specified.

Hurley these are your words not mine you use the term color phase that right it is a color phase not a localaty there for the term okeetee phase would be the correct term it impyls that the animal is not a pure okeetee and just a color phase. so what is the harm in useing a term which best describes the animal. this makes it easy for one to chose what a person wants . You want me to spell correct and I'm trying my best . the reason you want me to spell with the right letters is so you can understant what I'm writing. so you cant use the correct terms. just cause it has been abused for so long doesn't mean we have to contuine doing it This forum was put here to educate. what is the harm in using the term phase to distinguish between the two. Like you said the term okeetee to you means color and pattren this is a color phase their for not a localaty. there for the term okeetee phase would be the right term .
why make it so hard for anybody to distinguish between the two especially for a novice.
I will put it to you in a another way The word ****** is a slang term for a illiterate, a stupid person. Not a black person, just because people in America use it as a derogatory for the black people does make it right. The reason the word is used is because the blacks that were inslaved from africa did not know the english language. this did not mean that they are illiterate it is that they did not know our language . So since so many people ues the term ****** to describe a black person does this make it right . I'm a corcasion, I have heard this term used over and over for many years and from people from all walks of life and many diffrent races from all over the world. Remember I live in NY there are people from all over the world that live here.
You hearly should be the last one to talk you are trying to change the name blood red that has been used right from the start to the term diffused .I think diffused is a better term which better discribes the gene not the color phase, since bloods come in so many diffrent colors. So what is so wrong in using the term that best describes a corns origin or color. to be more professional the term okeetee should mean a localaty animal and the term okeetee phase should be used to describe a color phase. stop adding to the confussion. I dont mean this to come off cocky , remember you cant hear the way it sounds comming out of my mouth. lol vinman

Menhir · Apr 19, 2005

@Vinman I don't know why i got the thumbs down from you.
The way you describe Okeetee as locality animals and Okeetee Phase as the ones with the look is excactly how I use the terms and I never said something different and also did not in my post.
I mentioned, that if you use Okeetee, it does not matter how it looks like (cause Joe mentioned that) cause locality counts and on the other hand many people use Okeetee when they mean Okeetee Phase. That's an obvious fact and imho won't bring us any further to mention that in every thread with a novice question.

Vinman · Apr 19, 2005

Menhir said:
I think you should both change your semantics
If you just say Okeetee and mean the locality, it's no matter how they look, it's just the place where you collected them.
Imho - Okeetee is most of the time used for the Okeetee-Phase and therefore Joe is right, it's the look that counts.

the first part I will agree with you the second part you just controdicted your self quote; Imho - Okeetee is most of the time used for the
Okeetee-Phase and therefore Joe is right, it's the look that counts

a okeetee is from Jasper Co. a okeetee phase is a look joe dont care if it comes Jasper Co. or not he will call any corn that has thick black borders a okeetee
people what is so hard in using the term phase
Menhir dont take the thumbs down as a insult you are good people it just means that I dont agree with what you said. your post is confussing so which is it do you agree on with a pure okeetee being called a okeetee or any corn with thick black boredrs being called okeetee which is it because you cant tell by what you posted

Serpwidgets · Apr 19, 2005

The problem with expecting people to use "okeetee phase" is that there is no reason for them to do so. If they do not care about locality, then "okeetee" and "okeetee Phase" are exactly the same thing to them, so why should they use "phase" when it is meaningless? It is like saying "anerythristic type A" when "anery" will do just fine. If a handful of people refuse to acknowledge this and insist that they are confused because they don't know if I meant caramel or lavender when I said "anery," then that is their problem for not learning the language that everyone else is speaking.

Additionally, when newbies come into the hobby, they learn the meaning of the term by looking at pictures online that are labeled as "okeetee" and by looking at specimens at shows that are labeled "okeetee." Unless every photo and specimen is accompanied by a lengthy explanation of the "color versus locality" meanings, they are going to pick up intuitively that "okeetee" is a look. Then they will use the word in that context too. That is what has already happened and why the color meaning is the most common one in use today.

If Webster changed the dictionary to say Yes means No and No means Yes, then the dictionary would be wrong, not the entire English-speaking population. There is no moral "right" or "wrong" in language, there is only "usage." Majority usage is what ultimately determines the difference between "correct" or "incorrect." Arguments in this context are pointless. You might as well tell me a movie can't be hysterical because it doesn't have a uterus. :headbang:

In light of that, if the "educated" locality people, who know better, want to be able to effectively communicate with each other, it is up to them to use a term that very clearly specifies locality. If you call them Hunt Club corns, or Locale Okeetees, every locality buff will know exactly what you mean, and newbies will not mistake them for a color phase. You cannot forcefully educate the vast majority of the continuous stream of newcomers who pick up the "color" meaning.

Hurley · Apr 19, 2005

So what is so wrong in using the term that best describes a corns origin or color. to be more professional the term okeetee should mean a localaty animal and the term okeetee phase should be used to describe a color phase.

There is nothing wrong with using a term to describe a corn's color or origin. Why is it more professional to have "Okeetee" mean a locality animal, because that's what you like? If we want to be really clear, then "Locality Okeetee" could be used for locality animals and "Okeetee Phase" for the definition of "Okeetee" purely by looks. Shrug. I don't really care one way or another, but I do know that people will drop the "phase" for simplicity and just call them Okeetees. It's context. Vendor A has "Okeetees" for sale. At this time, most people will assume those are the Okeetee color phase unless Locality is specified somewhere, either on the tag or by the vendor. Most people with locality Okeetees consider their animals quite special (as the have every right to) and will broadcast their locality status. People interested in buying locality animals will seek out locality vendors, that's a given. I don't see why it's such an issue.

O-kee-tee - adjective, noun
1. Coming directly from, or directly descended from a specific locality in or around the Okeetee Hunt Club (var. Locality Okeetee)
2. A color phase with big red saddles, thick black borders, and a clean orange background (var. Okeetee Phase)
3. A hunt club in South Carolina where some particularly striking specimens of corn snake have been found

You see single words with multiple definitions in the dictionary all the time and we all seem to be able to easily figure out the difference based on context. Why this is a big issue, other than hierarchal status, I can't fathom.

You hearly should be the last one to talk you are trying to change the name blood red that has been used right from the start to the term diffused .I think diffused is a better term which better discribes the gene not the color phase, since bloods come in so many diffrent colors. So what is so wrong in using the term that best describes a corns origin or color.

I'm not trying to change the name "bloodred". I call bloodreds, bloodred. If it's a snake with the diffusion pattern AND is red, I'll call it a bloodred. This again is a case of language developing with usage. Have I ever forced anyone to use the term "diffused"? No. My position on it is that I do not feel comfortable misrepresenting my non-red "bloodred" morphs to others. This feeling of "misrepresentation" is mine alone, I don't project it onto anyone else and I don't look down on anyone else not sharing my view of it. I honestly don't care one way or another if anyone else feels the same way. I have to do what meets my personal set of ethics and honesty, and to me calling an animal that isn't bloodred "bloodred" is uncomfortable and feels dishonest. Again, I reiterate, that is MY opinion and 'I' stay within the boundaries of what MY personal standards state I should do. Do I go around mocking people using the term bloodred for an anerythristic snake? No. Do I go around telling them "You're WRONG!"? No. I use the term "diffused" to represent the pattern trait found in bloodreds and other non-red snakes. I feel it is actually an improvement since we now have a name for something that was once just part of a 2-part equation. My opinion, my usage, my prerogative.

See, the difference here is that I'm not saying you're wrong to have the opinion that Okeetee should be reserved for locality. I think you're entitled to the opinion and I try to respect that. What I do think you are "wrong" for is berating others for not having the same opinion as you. That's it. Your usage of Okeetee for locality animals may be right for you. I don't happen to hold the same opinion, so I will continue to call the color phase also by "Okeetee" with no hard feelings.

So, I guess I don't get why "I should be the last one to talk". In my previous post I talked about language evolving and coming to mean what we want it to or what best describes the current situation. Sounds like both topics are pretty similar. Okeetee having at least 2 definitions, based on context...Bloodred and Diffused as two words that mean two totally different things and I see this as adding one more word to our descriptive powers. The corn snake language will continue to evolve and move on and we'll all survive.

BTW, kudos on working on spelling and punctuation. It really does help and I will be the last person to belittle your efforts in that realm.

Rich Z · Apr 19, 2005

Vinman said:
Menhir & joejr14 when you get a animal that is from pure Jasper Co. stock that is a okeetee I dont care what the animal looks like. whem a animal looks like a perfect okeetee ( big black borders) if it is not a pure jasper Co. stock it is a okeetee phase . just like miami phase there is a dirffrenance between a pure miami and a miami phase most corns in the hobby are not pure miami that is why we call miami phase. only true miami are called miami the rest are called miami phase. This is the only way of makeing sure that if a person that wants a pure okeetee gets what they want. this is why we use the term phase the loves are thinking of droping the name okeetee and useing the name classic corn. by using the term phase is the only way to distingush between a pure and a look a like. To some people dont care if it is pure or not and then you have the pureist.It is more professional to use the term phase. since most people do not have pure okeetees. Another thing the okeetee look goes from SC to north Fl . So if i catch a corn in Jacksonville Fl with thick black borders and a bright orange back round then it is a okeetee, NO it is a Jacksonville corn with a okeetee pattren hence the term okeetee phase. So the snake would be a pure Jacksonville corn in okeetee phase. this whole thing is stupid if it is a okeetee then it is from Jasper Co. if not it is just a normal pretty corn. the name okeetee is a localaty and people should use the right terms. Most abuse the term okeetee that does not make it right!!!

Actually the reason we call corn snakes from Miami origination stock is because it was just a "flip of the coin" that I chose to call them "Miami Phase" instead of "Miami Corns". There really was no deliberation concerning the actual semantics of the phrase at all.

So let me ask you something, what exactly is the difference between the offspring of Okeetee corns that someone chooses to outcross with something else in their collection, and those babies that would be the result in the wild from some "invader" corn from outside of the arbitrary boundaries of "true" Okeetee corns coming inside those boundaries and mating with one of the "pure" Okeetee corns there? Further, suppose we now have a gravid female corn snake located within "true" Okeetee boundaries for the moment. But she goes wandering looking for the perfect place to lay her eggs. Is there any difference in what those babies actually ARE depending on where she lays those eggs? If they are laid within the boundaries of "true" Okeetees, are they also "true" Okeetees, but if she lays them outside of the boundaries, they are not "true" Okeetees? Or are those babies doomed to be only normal corns, no matter where they hatch out, because the mother had a tryst with that foreign corn who did not recognize that boundary?

Joejr14 · Apr 19, 2005

Rich Z said:
Actually the reason we call corn snakes from Miami origination stock is because it was just a "flip of the coin" that I chose to call them "Miami Phase" instead of "Miami Corns". There really was no deliberation concerning the actual semantics of the phrase at all.

So let me ask you something, what exactly is the difference between the offspring of Okeetee corns that someone chooses to outcross with something else in their collection, and those babies that would be the result in the wild from some "invader" corn from outside of the arbitrary boundaries of "true" Okeetee corns coming inside those boundaries and mating with one of the "pure" Okeetee corns there? Further, suppose we now have a gravid female corn snake located within "true" Okeetee boundaries for the moment. But she goes wandering looking for the perfect place to lay her eggs. Is there any difference in what those babies actually ARE depending on where she lays those eggs? If they are laid within the boundaries of "true" Okeetees, are they also "true" Okeetees, but if she lays them outside of the boundaries, they are not "true" Okeetees? Or are those babies doomed to be only normal corns, no matter where they hatch out, because the mother had a tryst with that foreign corn who did not recognize that boundary?

Rich, how many times have you been down this road with Vinman about this?

You're exactly right--it is <b> ridiculous </b> to define 'okeetees' by some arbitrary decided border and therefore nothing outside of this ridiculous border is a true 'okeetee-locality' specimen.

Hell, so if I had caught Quasimodo on the Hunt Club property, he'd be an okeetee? Imagine me trying to sell him as a 'locality-okeetee', I'd be laughed at!!

Where's Chip? Does he have any pictures of 'ugly' hunt club snakes he'd be willing to share?

Menhir · Apr 19, 2005

Vinman said:
Menhir said:

Menhir dont take the thumbs down as a insult you are good people it just means that I dont agree with what you said. your post is confussing so which is it do you agree on with a pure okeetee being called a okeetee or any corn with thick black boredrs being called okeetee which is it because you cant tell by what you posted

Click to expand...

OK, I see the problem.
What I meant is - when you use the terms in the way you do, it is true that it does not depend on the look of the snake.
BUT - the majority of people does not draw this line between phase and locality and for them, it is the look of an "okeetee" (which you would call okeetee phase) that counts.

I'm not quite shure how to solve this problem. It's like Serp said, the majority uses the name okeetee without caring about locality or not.

One thought from me, I would have no problem calling the LOOK or PHASE animals okeetee and calling the pure locality animals "locality okeetee". Other ratsnake breeders do so, that the e.g. use Zamenis longissimus for a perhaps "mixed" animal and add a locality if there is one, e.g. Zamenis longissimus from Passau.
We could do a little voting about that and I would be highly interested in clearing this thing up, expecially in our lexikon where I now use the Okeetee and Okeetee Phase thing in the way Vinman does and I see many people having problems with that.
I also think that "Locality Okeetee" is a highly and more descriptive name as just Okeetee for the breeders that have locality corns and I think that name is also a good seller.

...2cc from me and greetings

Menhir · Apr 19, 2005

Joejr14 said:
Hell, so if I had caught Quasimodo on the Hunt Club property, he'd be an okeetee? Imagine me trying to sell him as a 'locality-okeetee', I'd be laughed at!!

Where's Chip? Does he have any pictures of 'ugly' hunt club snakes he'd be willing to share?

I think you're none the less wrong with that.

I know many people and also friends of mine that are only interested in snakes of a speciel species with a known locality. If they are nice, the better it is - but what counts for many "natural" snake lovers is the locality and therefore not the look of the snake.

If you can find the ugliest cornsnake in the world on the are of the hunt club, it's none the less a locality okeetee animal and for natural snake breeders it's a nice and interesting animal.

mbdorfer · Apr 19, 2005

Joejr14 said:
Where's Chip? Does he have any pictures of 'ugly' hunt club snakes he'd be willing to share?

Apparently, still celebrating his birthday :grin01:
I'd love to see a side by side shot of Rhett Butler and an "ugly" hunt club corn :cheers:

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