questions about morphs

[Vinman]

this forum is to educate everybody the only reason why all of you dont want to put the name phase is for the name okeetee is more marketable. It is deciveing at the show people come to my table and buy a okeetee I tell that is a true okeetee,they dont ask. A few people ask me what do you mean by true. then I have to explane some people feel that they got riped off when the ask the breeder hay was the snake you sold me a true okeetee or not, do you know how many their answer is I dont know. this is the problem. look the only reason why most breeders defend the misrepresention of the name Okeetee is money. the name okeetee is a easy seller and you can get a extra buck. where you sell a normal for 10 to 15 bucks okeetee you can get 15 to 35 bucks. I can put two identical okeetee hatchlings on my table for 35 dolars lable one okeetee and the other normal. see which ones goes first .see if the normal sells for 35 dolars I dont care hot of a hatching it is a normal baby corn is not gona get 35 dolars for a normal okeetee look a like without attaching the name okeetee . the problem is that if you use the name okeetee phase for the same snake you still aint getting you 35 dolars for it.
as for the name diffused yes it a littlt confussing at first but it make sence to name the gene diffussed and a morph of that gene called blood red. still by your standards, since for so many years we use the term bloodred no matter
what color it may come in now you want to call some blood diffussed because they dont fit the discreption of a blood a top noch blood looks like.
so why do you feel that it is all right to use one them that has been around for so many years that so many people misrepresent and try to change another . when you use the word diffussed you hope that it will catch on. why dont you use the name that the gene is called ? I know why you are hopeing that when someones sells a blood that it is what a blood is sopossed to look like. This will make a lot more sence exp. hypo lavender bloodred is it a bloodred color any more? no . Are we breeding it for the bloodred color? no.
Are we breeding it fore the gene bloodred ? yes Then since this doesent make much sence the term hypo lavender defussed would be the correct term. so if you want to clear things up their should be cirtern terms that would better discribe a animal. this why you should not misrepresent the word okeetee because it means localty ont a look. Carl Kauffeld in his books never said a okeetee corn has to look a certin way ,he just said that the corns from that aera tend to have thick black borders. It was the hobby that went off on a thick boarder rage. No one said that okeetees have to look a certin way. Carl said that the corns were handsome ,nener said the ones with the thick black were the only handsome corns. like I said before that color phase comes from NC to north Fl so ot lable that color phase okeetee is bogis. The name classic would be the best discription. But then you cant sell them for more money. The name Okeetee is just a selling point and thats the cold fact.

 

[Hurley]

The name classic would be the best discription. But then you cant sell them for more money. The name Okeetee is just a selling point and thats the cold fact.

The name Okeetee is a selling point whether you mean locality or color phase. So are most of our names...so what? :shrugs: Welcome to America. People are welcome to ask and offer any price they want for their stock. If the buyer thinks it's worth it, they'll buy, if not, shrug.

Okeetee for locality describes where it's from. If that's important to the buyer, they will seek out "locality Okeetees" and the name has marketing value. Okeetee for color phase brings to mind a very distinct look. That's what the term Okeetee means to a large number of people. If an orange snake with big red saddles and thick black borders is more desireable than the plain brownish, small saddled, black longitudinal lined normal next door, why should it not garner a higher price at a show?

As to the term "classic corns", I personally think of thinner saddle outlines, perhaps smaller saddles, but still a prettily colored snake. Kathy has defined what she calls "classic" in another post and basically it is in use for a group of corns that don't quite earn the title "Okeetee", but are prettier in her eyes than the standard normals, kind of an intermediate look, if you will. And is that a marketing term? Of COURSE it is. It's also a valuable desciptor. It gives a very important message to the buyer. Many people are buying Kathy's (for example) reputation and experience when they buy her corns. They are trusting her judgement on what is going to turn out to be an "Okeetee" vs. a "Classic" vs. a "Normal". The lable "Classic corn" tells the buyer that she thinks those classics are prettier in her view and perhaps more desireable to many and therefore they do have a higher asking price than a normal, as they should.

 

[Vinman]

Hurley I just want to make sure that this is afriendly debate hope you feel the same. Kathy told me on the phone that she is thinking of calling okeetee line classic because she had bought snakes as okeetee on peoples word and did not cheach out the history on every snake so she can not say for sure that they are100% okeetee.

what you call okeetee is the extreem of what a okeetee looks like and like I said before the look goes from NC to north Fl so the name okeetee to describe a cirtan look is invalid. the only okeetee, comes from jasper Co. The name classic is more true to form. When this all started some people did not like the big black borders they like the color and the absence or reduction in white flecks alonge the pattren.to give asnake a fancy name to sell it is one thing misrepresention is anotherthng all together. this forum is here to educate and disspell myths not keep them going. like I said it is a money thing dont try to make up some mobojumbo story and tell me that we cant use the right terms so to educate a novice from the start. If classic was fetching a better buck that okeetee I would see how fast that all of you would drop the name okeetee and okeetee phase and call them classic. Just because a lot of people do it dont make right and when it is done for money reason it is misrepresention dont try to sweeten it up it is still fraud

 

[Hurley]

Not a vehement bone in my body, just discussing.

As to the marketing thing, I can't speak for anyone else, but I use Okeetee to describe what's been accepted the ideal of the color phase should look like. To say that I do that because of money is pretty absurd considering I don't sell and have never sold an Okeetee in my life.

I also do acknowledge that there are unscrupulous and/or ignorant people out there selling "Okatees/Oketes/Oakuhtees/Okeetees" that don't look Okeetees purely for the buck. There are also people selling "vomitmels" as candy canes knowing full well they'll gain more orange in the background as they age. Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion at this point as we are at an impasse, your view being yours and you have your reasons. My view is mine and I have my reasons. Good discussion.

 

[Drizzt80]

Hurley or anyone else for that matter,
If a pair of Hunt Club corns were collected on the property (illegally, I might add), and sent to you in Chicago, and you bred them, and the babies hatched out . . . they're F1's that weren't on the property right? Therefore they're not true-Okeetee's, but Okeetee phases right?

For all those purists out there, wouldn't that make the only TRUE Okeetee's the ones that were actually collected? How can they call the offspring TRUE Okeetee's?! Interesting debate, but I think I can tell everyone's getting tired of it!

I vote for Okeetee means looks!! (Especially since I'm personally not going to mess with a wild caught speciment in my collection right now, since the only TRUE-Okeetee's are wild caughts.)


D80

 

[darkpbstar]

OH MY GOD. THIS GOT OUT OF HAND. ok I"m ok now. I'll probably do that,just try to find a nice okeetee with big black borders and breed it to my female okeetee, and see what happens. and I'll get a nice bright looking normal for my female normal, and hopefully get a brighter normal. or maybe even really dark normals might be cool, not the ugly ones thoug.

 

[Vinman]

you havent been there you hunt the roads that run through and around the okeetee there pockets of land in and out of the okeetee and is not limitted to the okeetee property thereis good hope plantation chelshe, a lot fo land user to be owend by the okeetee they also lease land to other hunt clubs like pine land hunting club. it is still okeetee land I know somebody that hunted that track of land with carl K. and it was okeetee land.
if you caught a grivad okeetee its babies would be F1 true or pure okeetees
See you are misinformed since a true okeetee is any corn that is 100% pure jasper Co. corn no mater how many gens. away from the wild.

 

[Vinman]

ALL RIGHT darkpbstar do the right thing give this newbe some points

 

[Serpwidgets]

the look goes from NC to north Fl so the name okeetee to describe a cirtan look is invalid.

Wrong. That is not how language works.

There was never anything written by Kauffield that said "only snakes that come from the Hunt Club property and their direct progeny when crossed to other snakes that came from the Hunt Club property should ever be called Okeetee." What he did was describe something he thought was pretty that he had found in that area. He described both a look and a locality.

The "locality" definition of the word became valid not when it was published in a book, but when people used it often enough that it did not NEED to be published to have any meaning of its own.

After that point, many people just liked the look, did not care about all the whole "locality" deal, and started breeding/selecting by color/pattern regardless of origin. Many of those people began buying, selling, and referring to such snakes as "Okeetees," enough so that it did not NEED to be published to have any meaning of its own. At that point in time, a second PERFECTLY VALID definition came into existence.

At this point in time, on this forum, and with the vast majority of people I've ever talked to, when people say "Okeetee" they are using the second, PERFECTLY VALID definition of the word.

There is no such thing as a "true Okeetee." There are two, count them, TWO valid definitions. If YOU think it is important to distinguish a snake's locality, and 99% of the rest of people in the hobby do not care, then the problem is not theirs, but yours.

I do not care about locality, neither do very many people who are into corns. It is not my responsibility to speak in a certain way just to appease a small minority of very vocal, and IMO very obnoxious, hobbyists out there. If they, or you, don't understand the language of cornsnakes as it is spoken in two thousand five, that is not "the" problem... it is your problem. :sobstory:

 

[Rich Z]

Vinnie,

Let's cut this down to the bone and get some definitions in place. What is YOUR definition of a 100 percent pure Okeetee corn snake? What differentiates this animal from all of the rest of the corn snakes in all creation? In your eyes, what actually IS a pure Okeetee Corn Snake?

 

[Menhir]

If a pair of Hunt Club corns were collected on the property (illegally, I might add), and sent to you in Chicago, and you bred them, and the babies hatched out . . . they're F1's that weren't on the property right? Therefore they're not true-Okeetee's, but Okeetee phases right?

Wrong - breeding locality animal with an animal from the same locality gives you again animals with locality.
The thing is, you just want to make shure, that you pair animals that would have also met in nature or could have met. So, this F1 are locality animals, but CB and not WC.

 

[Susan]

There was never anything written by Kauffield that said "only snakes that come from the Hunt Club property and their direct progeny when crossed to other snakes that came from the Hunt Club property should ever be called Okeetee." What he did was describe something he thought was pretty that he had found in that area. He described both a look and a locality.

The "locality" definition of the word became valid not when it was published in a book, but when people used it often enough that it did not NEED to be published to have any meaning of its own.

After that point, many people just liked the look, did not care about all the whole "locality" deal, and started breeding/selecting by color/pattern regardless of origin. Many of those people began buying, selling, and referring to such snakes as "Okeetees," enough so that it did not NEED to be published to have any meaning of its own. At that point in time, a second PERFECTLY VALID definition came into existence.

Serp hit the nail on the head here. What made the Hunt Club locality corns special was their LOOK, NOT their locality. If these original, extra special looking corns were found somewhere else, they would be called by another name. At the time, the locality "counted" since the look was not found anywhere else. But as people selectively bred for the look, the locality of the corn became less important. Today, a corn having both the look and locality may be a bit more important to some people, but generally, it is the look that really matters. People are now breeding the look into pattern morphs (Okeetee zigzags and Okeetee motleys) which further defines the name as a look. Just my 2 cents.

 

[E. g. guttata]

Wrong - breeding locality animal with an animal from the same locality gives you again animals with locality.
The thing is, you just want to make shure, that you pair animals that would have also met in nature or could have met. So, this F1 are locality animals, but CB and not WC.

You cannot change the definition of locality to meet the weak criteria you want it to mean. Locality means that it comes from a distinct location or area. It does NOT mean "descended from an animal from a distinct location or area." Therefore, the only TRUE locality okeetees are the okeetees that were WC on the okeetee land. Furthermore, since no two people can accurately define where the okeetee land (as vinny is showing) then there exists no such boundry in which this locality occurs. Some people define the okeetee land as just the hunt club, while vinny calls okeetee land (from what I can tell) "any land owned by the hunt club that is leased and/or sold to other clubs of the surrounding area." If I am wrong about your definition vinny, please tell me. But the simple fact remains that there are people who define the locality to STRICTLY the hunt club. Meaning that once a snake leave those boundries, it is no longer an okeetee, until it returns to those boundries and vice versa with snakes living outside those boundries. Until there is a uniform concensus on what constitutes the boundries of the okeetee land, then there is no such thing as an okeetee. And further, once those boundries are forged, how would a snake be defined as an okeetee? If it is simply that they rest within the boundries at point of capture, then I could find a gorgeous snake, chase it into the boundries, and grab it up. If it is defined by the snake needing to be in the boundries on first sight of the snake, before capture, then you could, very realistically, find a snake not within the boundries of the okeetee land, leave it, and then someone comes along an hour later and sees the same exact snake within the boundries. So suddenly one snake went from being a normal, to an okeetee within an hour, simply because it changed locations. And then you have Rich's argument: Is it still a locality animal if one parent came from the hunt club and another came from outside the border?

After you get through defining and refining that mess into something respectable, you still have to deal with the offspring. Surely the eggs are not laid or hatched on your newly-formed boundries, so they cannot be called locality snakes anymore. This is true simply because of the definition of locality. The locality of the parents would be in the okeetee region (however it finally gets defined) and then the offspring of said snakes would be hatched in the location of your house/basement/snake room, so their locality is now your house/basement/snake room. So Dritz's argument that the only locality okeetees in a person's collection are those that were WC from the okeetee land, is perfectly valid and sound. Now ASSUMING that you muttle through all these problems and have a strict definition of a locality okeetee, then you can say that the offspring are descendant from locality okeetee.

Just some food for though peoples . Gotta make things interesting.

 

[Menhir]

You cannot change the definition of locality to meet the weak criteria you want it to mean. Locality means that it comes from a distinct location or area. It does NOT mean "descended from an animal from a distinct location or area." Therefore, the only TRUE locality okeetees are the okeetees that were WC on the okeetee land.

Then it seems there is a difference between german and english.
If I say an animal has a locality, then I mean that it is a WC with known place where it was collected or a sibling of animals with the same locality. Shure, there is a difference between WC and CB but the way I use "locality" in german is the use of many herpetologists in europe that own and breed "natural" snakes and I imho found the same usage on kingsn*ke.com and other english boards.

So, please enlighten me - is the english word for what I mean "pure"? But I thought thats just used for species and not localities... And perhaps you have some source where I can find your definition, that - my 2cc - doesn't fit with the paradigma of breeding locality animals that many herpetologists use.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I think the definitions used within the circles of locality collectors are valid, within that context. Again, it's a matter of usage. If they all use the word in a consistent manner and they all understand each other and accept the usage, then it is a valid definition/usage, regardless of what outsiders might think about it. I don't know if "pure" is really the right word for this situation, but I can't think of anything better at this point.

The problem with CB locality is that the reason a population from a certain place becomes "special" is by isolation from other gene pools. This generally requires some kind of natural boundary that keeps one group from mixing with their neighbors, or some kind of extreme selection pressure that keeps "alien" genetics from surviving in that locale. (Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that one or the other situation applies to locality Okeetees.)

What happens when you take two locality specimens and breed them to each other in captivity is the same thing that created said locality in the first place: you are isolating them from other gene pools and placing selection pressures on them.

It may not be obvious in the F1, but over the course of generations, these CB animals will drift in a direction away from the gene pool of the locality. In effect, you are creating a brand new "group" (or race or locale or whatever you prefer) in captivity.

At some point, the CB gene pool will be every bit as different from the "locale gene pool" as any other locale of snakes. They may be "phenotypically Okeetee-like corns with okeetee-locality ancestors" but they become less and less "okeetee locality" snakes with every generation that is bred in captivity.

The point is that calling something a locality snake has the purpose of distinguishing something about it. If you also include snakes that are extremely different from those criteria, you've defeated the whole purpose of describing them by locality.

 

[Menhir]

@Serp ok, I agree to that.
If you are using the same CB animals over and over you don't have "locality" or "natural" animals any more.

But - if you e.g. keep animals to regenerate natural populations, it's a goal to keep them as close to this population as you can.
Take for example Zamenis longissmus that spreads over many parts of europe but always in small isolated populations.
If I'm searching for new "blood" I'm much more familiar with taking "locality" animals from the same population than taking whatever I can get.
This is one big argument of natural snake herpers and I think this is clearly valid.

You asked for a definition and I'll add my 2cc:
If we use locality exclusivly for WC animals with known collecting place - why the hell do we need the word WC???
Imho, WC says, that I took it from mother nature out of a (perhaps) known place.
E.g.g.'s definition is simply useless cause I can say that the animal is a WC Okeetee and there is no need for a word like locality!

Using it the way I do and the way I've learned to do is using it for animals that were collected in a special region or are direct siblings of animals directly related to such and consist only of pure "locality" stock.
Again - if it's used different in english I'm sorry, but if E.g.g.'s definition is common knowledge, I think the word locality is then absolutely useless...

 

[Rich Z]

Another perspective of this is that once a human being decides which male breeds with which female, then the selection of of what offspring are being produced is no longer "natural". Someone collecting a half dozen specimens from dead center in the Okeetee Hunt Club, and deciding to keep only the best pair of them to breed, has now introduced an unnatural selection process in the future generations of that line of animals. So regardless of the fact that they may have originated directly from the Hunt Club, the offspring are no longer naturally occuring examples of Okeetee Corns. And has been pointed out, every subsequent generation, where humans will tend to selectively breed from those produced offspring, takes you further away from those "true" naturally occuring Okeetee Corns. In this context, I am assuming that "pure" in this argument relates to NATURAL Okeetee Corns. So the simple fact that the guiding hand of a human being has a bearing on the subsequent generations in a captive bred situation negates anyone from claiming that those baby Okeetee corns they are selling can be truly defined as being "pure".

Another issue is that all animals ARE what they eat. And what you eat determines what you are. How many people working with "pure" Okeetee corn snakes are also collecting the "pure" feed items from the Okeetee Hunt Club to feed those animals? Animals are certain colors simply because of the environment they live in and the influence it also has on the dietary supplements they get from their prey. So once anyone takes an Okeetee Corn Snake out of it's natural habitat and feeds it ONE mouse that did not also come from that area, haven't you began the change in that animal into something else?

I am sorry, but I have heard this locality argument for decades now. No one has yet been able to present a convincing argument for it being a valid technical concept. ALL arguments have always ended in something like "Well, that's what I believe in and that is that!" Everything having to do with the defense of the "locality culture" is based on personally arbitrary definitions. Which really is fine with me, but don't try to shove it down anyone's throat if they don't agree with you.

 

[Vinman]

Any corn that is within the boarders of jasper Co. the okeetee has bought and sold land over a lot of land .Also Carl K. hunted the good hope, chelase, H. philps land . Look rich you been there probley a lot more than me. The okeetee owns large tracks of land all over JaspeCo.It is not only ,hardeyvill, tillman,ridgland there is tarbrough, I dont know about thegrays. a most of tarbough was Okeetee.
there is a diffrents in scale count in between the north and south population of corn and what the contamiation in the corns in the hobby . You know as well as I that there is a lot of tainted blood in the corns in tobby ,remember that is why I bought from you all my new color morphs. to avoid haveing any emoryi , king, gopher it there lines . I remember you used to bost about not haveing any emoryi in your blood and if there was is has been washed out . now you know as well asI okeetees come from Jasper Coand useing the name classic is the most correct. because the look that you are trying coin is the classic okeetee look do you remember that term. I sure do . the fact that most okeetees in the wild dont look like what would think they would It is hard to find a rich colored thick black boarder corn most of the time you get a rich colored animal with litle black boarders or some dark colored to brownish with thik black boarders. With all the road killthat I seen about 1 out 20 to 30 are that classic okeetee look.
That thing about miami phase you know that you sold me a miami fem. and a bunch of miami phase projects . the only diffrentance is that where the real good miami corns come from is now a bulding complex, All the corns from that area were sold as miami corns or miami phase. all the desendants that were crosed in to other mutations were cald miami phase not miami corns
You but this forum to educate people disspell myths so why propitiate using this bogus term

 

[Vinman]

There was never anything written by Kauffield that said "only snakes that come from the Hunt Club property and their direct progeny when crossed to other snakes that came from the Hunt Club property should ever be called Okeetee." What he did was describe something he thought was pretty that he had found in that area. He described both a look and a locality

that is right serp he called them okeetees corns read keeper and the kept, handsom okeetee corns.

sory rich I've seen pure 3,4, gen okeetees you are so wrong all the genes are there. I have allways worked with pure okeetees the problem is corns from other localitys mix in that is why you see a diffrent look it is dishoneist people that pass off mix okeetee blood as pure okeetees . the look of a okeetee dont have super bright colors they are not like the Fla corn which tends not to have the lines that come on with age you know as well as I that other genes will change the look . the fact is greed has made people abuse the name. this forum is to educate people

 

[Rich Z]

OK, so your definition of a *true* Okeetee Corn is any one that comes from within the borders of Jasper County. Well we're starting off on the wrong foot here right off the bat, because I am certain that the Okeetee Hunt Club never encompased the entire county. So the proper name for all corns coming from that defined area really should be Jasper County Corns, I would think. No matter, though, let's work with your definition, as is.

Any corn snake captured within Jasper County is a *true* Okeetee Corn Snake.

So any corn that is even one inch outside of that border is then a normal corn, right? Meaning *not* an Okeetee Corn.

What about if you SEE that corn while it is within the Jasper County border, but by the time you get to it, it has crossed the border and is no longer in Jasper County. What kind of corn is it, Okeetee or normal?

Suppose you SEE that corn snake while it is outside of the Jasper County border and by the time you get to it, it has crossed over into Jasper County. What kind of corn is it, Okeetee or normal?

Suppose you see a corn exactly on the border of Jasper County, and it doesn't move at all by the time you get to it and catch it. Half of the snake is within Jasper County and the other half is not. What kind of corn is it, Okeetee or normal?