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Chat room - listen up, please

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Roy Munson said:
I AM an adult, I'm no crony, and I don't own a "ball". I really don't need to be preached at by you, Rich, or anybody really. I didn't run away, I just decided that chat was no longer a place that I wanted to hang out in. Is that wrong? Is it childish?
Point to me where I said Dean was one of the childish ones . . .
Dean hasn't run away with is ball (which he doesn't own :) ) . . .
Dean isn't whining about being 'picked on' or 'oppressed' because Rich doesn't like the behavior CS.com members displayed in chat . . .

If I decided that another chat room provided an atmosphere that I liked better, would I be childish and wrong to go there? Have you ever stopped hanging around somewhere because it no longer offered you anything of value? Were you childish and wrong for doing this instead of toughing it out and doing your darndest to improve it? Gimme a break.
No. Yes. No. You need a Kit Kat bar?

What's childish about it is the whining about the fact that Rich didn't like the indefensible behavior displayed in chat, and others are attempting to defend those actions based on 'the troll deserved it' and 'this is cornsnake chate and not boa chat'.

Answer the question:
Drizzt80 said:
Since when did someone else's negative behavior make it alright for anyone else to behave badly. :shrugs:

D80
 
Wow...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Roy Munson again.

Dean said it all, so I guess I don't need to repeat by stating what would have been pretty much what he said.

yes, I will take my ball elsewhere to play if I'm unhappy playing ball where I was at. I don't delight in being unhappy. Yeah, don't feed the trolls, that can be said sooo many times, but every now and then people snap back or make comments. Yeah we have a pack mentality. It's called friendship. And we tend to stick together when an attack is made. And attack as a "pack" We've opted to chat elsewhere. It isn't some secret hideaway kept top secret from everyone. It's simply a place where the type of things that made it nasty in the public corn chat room just simply won't exist. Because the room will be full of moderators with the ability to ban people. Change is inevitable. I don't think I'll ever stop coming here to the forums. Just that I choose to chat with the people I enjoy chatting with. And that's where they are hanging out.

Really though, come on, it's just a chat room. People still use this chat room here. I see that. And some of us chat in a room elsewhere. NOTHING wrong with that! geez!

Toes got stepped on both sides. Time to just get past that and move on.
 
Dean,
I can't rep you right now, but do have to say that I thoroughly respect your thoughts and opinions on this topic and many, many others. I'm really sad that the current state of affairs around here is very 'high school'-ish. It leads me to believe that some of the egos around here aren't getting stroked to their liking (not yours) so they are going elsewhere . . . and these are people that I respect(ed). :shrugs: It's sad, and my comment about running away was concerned with just that problem. There's many people that are still here toughing it out and trying to keep a sense of normalcy around here in both the forums and chat. Kudo's to them. I don't count myself among them. Part of it's been a busy Fall, part of it is a sour taste in my mouth . . .

D80
 
Here's a question...

Why almost 2 months later is this thread still going? Chat barely ever gets used now, and this whole thing seems to be going on still just for the sake of having something to complain about. As I said before, trolls suck and make it hard to enjoy the chat...but it gives us no right to stoop to their level, which we have done. End of story...just lock the thread and move on.
 
Rich Z said:
I think the TOTAL solution to the problem is indicated within that one statement. If you want to be food for the trolls, then they will flourish.

Honestly, if someone comes into a chat room and tries to start up a conversation about some topic of interest to them, and gets lashed by people such as Joe telling them to "GTFO, this is a CORN SNAKE room!", how would you expect them to react? How would YOU act in a similar situation? Offended? Hurt? Maybe even angry? If you were at Expo standing in the lobby talking with some of your friends and someone walked up and brought up another topic unrelated to the Expo, you would do that to them there? Tell them to "GTFO, this is the Expo lobby!"?

Sorry, but if anyone feels they have some RIGHT to do this in the chat HERE, then they are just simply mistaken. If they feel that they NEED to have this right or they don't want to use this chat system, then yes, go elsewhere. It is because of YOUR reactions that you made things WORSE there, rather than better.
I totally agree that behavior like that ruined chat as much as the trolls. My posts here are not in defense of that behavior. The point is, there was a problem with trolls that went unattended that lead up to that unappropriate behavior. So you don't fix everything by taking away just the unappropriate reactions, the core problem was still there. :shrugs:
 
Russell said:
Really though, come on, it's just a chat room. People still use this chat room here. I see that. And some of us chat in a room elsewhere. NOTHING wrong with that! geez!

Toes got stepped on both sides. Time to just get past that and move on.
OK, I'm willing to end on that! :cheers:
 
carol said:
OK, I'm willing to end on that! :cheers:
Me too, and I just want to add another thought. My 'angst' centers quite a bit on feeling bad for Rich having to deal with this and other issues. Here we are in his house telling him how to run it. Does anyone here go to someone's home, have them ask/tell you to use a coaster under your drink, and you throw the coaster in their face telling them they're wrong and coasters are useless, yadda yadda yadda. And THEN when their two year old comes through the room and places their sippy cup of milk on the coffee table and says "Nyah nyah", now you get to put your glass of lemonade down without a coaster too? :shrugs: Just something to think about.

D80
 
carol said:
I totally agree that behavior like that ruined chat as much as the trolls. My posts here are not in defense of that behavior. The point is, there was a problem with trolls that went unattended that lead up to that unappropriate behavior. So you don't fix everything by taking away just the unappropriate reactions, the core problem was still there. :shrugs:

Unattended? I banned anyone who was brought to my attention as being an obvious troll. In some instances, I did not agree with the person reporting the alleged troll, so no, nothing was done. I asked Connie Hurley to be the moderator of the chat to help keep things in line. There are others I guess I COULD have made into moderators there, but quite honestly, from what I observed, that would have made things WORSE, not better.

So how do you define "unattended"? Other than my parking myself in the chat room 12/7?
 
I'm not totally sure what measures you took and I understand it is impossible for you to have the time to police it yourself. All I know is that there was a big troll problem leading up to the inappropriate behavior, and it continued even after people stopped egging them on. The only thing that seemed to stop it was for people to leave. So if we are short on resources to keep a room of 20-30 people from being attacked by trolls, perhaps it's not such a bad thing that the numbers there have dropped.
Many people report they have been going there and enjoying the small groups and have been troll free. So like Russell said, maybe we should leave "well enough" alone. If there have been people going there, having a good time, and no problems arising, than let it be.
It's either got to be small scale with small scale maintenance, or large scale with large scale maintenance.
 
Rich Z said:
There are others I guess I COULD have made into moderators there, but quite honestly, from what I observed, that would have made things WORSE, not better.

True. Some people would be better than others but I think if there was a clear list of rules they MUST abide by and if they don't...next in line.

For example: What if when a 'troll' came in the room with some less than appropriate question or interruption, the moderator could kindly tell him/her that this is a cornsnake chat and please introduce yourself and your problem and we'll see if we can help. The troll is not ignored and will not continue the attacks and the other people in the room do not have to tell him/her to 'lmnop' or whatever letters you want to put together to convey not-so-nice internet slang. If the troll continues...moderator can kick him/her. If the others in the room are bothered when a troll enters they do not have to respond as that would be the duty of a moderator.

Heck, if we all acted like this I don't things would get out of hand...the only thing needed is a 'lmnop' button for those trolls that do not respond well so they are removed.

As far as picking moderators...maybe the first person in the room that is a contributing member? All contributing members have moderator abilities? Personal Forum renters? OR...we could do a nomination thing with the final approval by Rich Z?
 
The chat room had (has?) a moderator. I guess it is my fault because I assumed that would suffice. I figured she is one of the more level headed members on this site, and would either handle the problems appropriately, or contact me if the burden was more than she wanted to bear. No I am not blaming her one bit, I just don't know what happened to cause things to get so out of hand..... Certainly it would have to be a thankless task to take on.
 
Rich Z said:
The chat room had (has?) a moderator. I guess it is my fault because I assumed that would suffice. I figured she is one of the more level headed members on this site, and would either handle the problems appropriately, or contact me if the burden was more than she wanted to bear. No I am not blaming her one bit, I just don't know what happened to cause things to get so out of hand..... Certainly it would have to be a thankless task to take on.

One moderator for a chat room that was busy from 5pm-2am just doesn't cut it. Nobody expects you to be in chat all the time policing it, but when someone is in chat for a few hours and encounters 10 trolls in that time, it gets old.

Heck, even last night we have a guy come in from Fauna wanting to sell his snakes. I was talking to Dean about bloods and the guy says, "I have bloods!".

Dean and I both said, "Blood pythons?"

Response: "Yeah"

And no, I know that's not a troll. But things like that happen all the time. It's a cornsnake chatroom---why would we be interested in chatting about blood pythons? Isn't there a boa/boid chatroom that YOU made after WE complained about the inflitration of people coming in to talk about boas and pythons? Why can't people from Fauna use the appropriate rooms?

And if we're not using the chat room---clearly Fauna isn't either. We have used that chat room 10 fold what Fauna does---so what good does it do taking it off CS.com and leaving it on Fauna---where it doesn't get used? Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

Anyway, it got so out of hand because our single moderator wasn't in the chat room enough during the day and night to combat the problem. During peak times it wasn't uncommon to get 20 people in chat on a given night---and we always had trolls---every night. When Connie wasn't there a lot of times we packed bags and created our own rooms so we could be a moderator and kick them out. Clearly, that's what we should have done from the beginning.
 
Drizzt80 said:
Me too, and I just want to add another thought. My 'angst' centers quite a bit on feeling bad for Rich having to deal with this and other issues. Here we are in his house telling him how to run it. Does anyone here go to someone's home, have them ask/tell you to use a coaster under your drink, and you throw the coaster in their face telling them they're wrong and coasters are useless, yadda yadda yadda. And THEN when their two year old comes through the room and places their sippy cup of milk on the coffee table and says "Nyah nyah", now you get to put your glass of lemonade down without a coaster too? :shrugs: Just something to think about.
D80
I don't completely see it that way. This isn't his house. It's a place of business where he intends to draw people. Sometimes some perspective on how things look (whether they are true or not) is invaluable information. I think the very thing that made this site fly is that Rich has always been open to people's opinion. Being open to an opinion doesn't mean you have to agree, but at least give people acknowledgement on it.
I am in a somewhat similar position at work. I manage a place where people come for recreation. It's not like a grocery store or gas station, where people have to go. They come because they decide that's where they want to spend their free time.
Customer feedback is probably the most important tool I have in my job. Sometimes people feel things could be better, but when I explain to them the circumstances I have to deal with, they change their mind to being surprised things are going so well. Sometimes they say things could be better, and they're right and it was just something I overlooked underneath a daunting workload. Sometimes people are just full of crap and won't be happy unless you drop everything for them and give them a dollar while you're at it. Sometimes people don't necessarily want a solution, they just want to be listened to and know their opinion is sincerely valued.
Through frequent interchange, I gain a lot from listening to my customers and they gain some understanding listening to me. Perception is what it is, no real wrong or right. Much like here we have many loyal members that we all know by name, and we have "new blood" trickling in all the time. The "older" members do a great job in helping take care of the new comers, and ensuring rules are followed even when I'm not watching. I couldn't keep up with my job if there were no loyal faithful members, but the business could not grow without the new ones. They are both a very important part of the business. I think it would be a big mistake on my part if I were to close my ears to any of them. I do have the final say, but I take everyones input into consideration before I decide what's best. Then the second most valueable tool is accepting that you can't please everyone. ;)
I'm not trying to tell Rich how to run his site. I just wanted to give him one users perspective before he made his decision. It seemed that Rich had the idea that people left because they were told not to behave inappropriately. I don't think that was the case at all and speaking for myself, I KNOW that wasn't the case.
I think the chatroom was getting so big, so fast, that there was no way two mods could keep up with it. So I'd say let it recover slowly on it's own time instead of pushing for volume that just proved itself to be too much for the given resources.
Just my 2 cents. Take or leave it, but I do appreciate being able to give it.
 
carol said:
I am in a somewhat similar position at work. I manage a place where people come for recreation.
I cannot disagree with a single thing you posted carol. But, does the place you manage have a set of rules that MUST be followed in order to participate?! I would have to believe it does since if I remember correctly it's a gun range. The management has obvioulsy set up those rules for a reason.

Rich has set up a rule for behavior by the people on THIS board in the chat room specifically. The behavior he is guarding against is indefensible . . . the issue is that people are defending that behavior based on the argument they are trolls and 'deserve' to be treated that way.

A. Rich lays down a rule that he wants followed, and the reaction (by some) around here is like that 2 year old in the supermarket that doesn't get the sucker they want.
B. Since when did someone else's negative behavior make it alright for anyone else to behave badly.
C. I have made a personal choice to avoid the crux of this issue by not going to chat any longer. I avoid the trolls and I avoid the elitism that is present. I am able to still enjoy this site by participating in the valuable discussions about corns and other animals.

D80
 
Drizzt80 said:
A. Rich lays down a rule that he wants followed, and the reaction (by some) around here is like that 2 year old in the supermarket that doesn't get the sucker they want.
B. Since when did someone else's negative behavior make it alright for anyone else to behave badly.
D80
Again, I don't see that the majority disagree with that rule. The point I've been trying to get through over and over and it just doesn't seem to sink in, most people didn't leave because of this post repremanding inexcusable behavior. It was an ugly reaction that needed to be seriously addressed, but it was only part of the problem and not a total fix. If the chatroom is going to be a pleasant place with large numbers, people need to follow the rules AND more provisions need to be in place to protect those following the rules from those who don't.
It's like taking a decongestant while you have the flu. Sure it helps because it gives you relief from an unpleasant symptom, but it's not a total cure.
So we got the runny nose taken care of, so let's stop dwelling on it. I honestly believe that people left because there just weren't enough mods to keep it a pleasant place. And I am certainly starting to see the frustration that people still think this is about defending negative behavior. So I'll put it more simply:
1. The behavior was unacceptable. It needed to be addressed and was.
2. There was a troll problem before and after the fact and the only thing that cured it was a drop in numbers.
It's as if we are on a broken record and we keep going back to # 1 over and over and over. I tried my best to move the discussion to problem # 2. However, this is a forum for people to discuss what they want so have fun with # 1. I'll go find a thread that's a little more progressive to suit my tastes.
 
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carol said:
I honestly believe that people left because there just weren't enough mods to keep it a pleasant place.

I think you nailed it here!

carol said:
1. The behavior was unacceptable it needed to be addressed and was.


Too true. An annoying troll does not excuse an unfriendly response. And a mod to control the situation would remedy that.
 
carol said:
So I'll put it more simply:
1. The behavior was unacceptable it needed to be addressed and was.
2. There was a troll problem before and after the fact and the only thing that cured it was a drop in numbers.
It's as if we are on a broken record and we keep going back to # 1 over and over and over. I tried my best to move the discussion to problem # 2.
Point taken and I agree with you. I will refrain discussing #1 from now on as well. You are correct, #2 is as a completely different, AND extremely valid, issue. I was lumping the two together. Sorry.

Rich is there a script that can be put in place that would automatically boot people from the chat area if certain derogatory words are used? I would like to think there is. I seem to recall a mention at one point that the chat room can also be accessed from mIRC? Is that correct or am I mistaken? If so, then you should be able to install a 'bot' that would act as a moderator for the room.

D80
 
MohrSnakes said:
Too true. An annoying troll does not excuse an unfriendly response. And a mod to control the situation would remedy that.

Yet it seems like some are saying an unfriendly response gives a troll the green light to say whatever they want.

The solution is easy, just create your own private room and name it Cornsnakes 2 or whatever---then you can be your own mod and kick whoever you want. Problem solved, I guess.
 
Just of the top of my head here....
Would it be possible to require people to be a member of either Fauna or Cornsnakes for a certain length of time (a week??) before they were given chat privileges? Then any chatroom offenders could be banned a week and there wouldn't be much point in creating a new log in. As always, where there is a will, there is a way and it's not fail proof. However it seems as if it would slow down trolling. :shrugs: Add a handful more mods and it might work.
 
Troll said:
Joe_Jo entered the room.
Joe_Jo: U GUYS ARE [highlight]ASS HOLES[/highlight]. NO ONE ELSE IS ON AND I HAVE A SIMPLE QUESTION. U GUYS DONT GIVE N E ONE A CHANCE TO ASK QUESTIONS. UR [highlight]%&*!ING RETARDS[/highlight] WHO THINK UR SO COOL WITH UR _CS AT THE END OF YOUR NAMES.
Joe_Jo: IT STANDS FOR [highlight]COCK SUCKERS[/highlight]
Joe_Jo: U [highlight]!@#$ING PIECES OF %&*![/highlight]
Joe_Jo: ALL OF U R
Joe_Jo: [highlight]FAGGOTS[/highlight]
Joe_Jo: [highlight]GAY[/highlight]
Joe_Jo: [highlight]SUCK DICK[/highlight]
Joe_Jo: LICK [highlight]ASS HOLE[/highlight]
Joe_Jo: AND HAVE NO RESPECT CUZ U ALL HAVE EACHOTHERS THUMB UP EVERYONE ELSES [highlight]ASS HOLE[/highlight]
Joe_Jo: CALL HIM I DONT GIVE A [highlight]!@#$[/highlight]
Joe_Jo: [highlight]&*!@[/highlight] ALL OF U
Joe_Jo: LIVE [highlight]DICK[/highlight] FOR UR MOUTH
Joe_Jo: PEACE OUT U [highlight]$%&*ING DICKS[/highlight]
Joe_Jo has left the room.
joejowarnings.jpg

Drizzt80 said:
B. Since when did someone else's negative behavior make it alright for anyone else to behave badly.

Beats the heck out of me. :shrugs:
 
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