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hybrids vs. nonhybrids

abell82 said:
All DOGS are now "Canis Familiaris" However at one time they were wolves. Different species of wolves.
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I think that most researchers consider a single wolf species, the gray wolf, to have been the ancestor of the domestic dog.

Some people like hybrids and some don't. For some, it is a matter of "polluting" the bloodlines of "pure" animals. Others may be concerned with the predictability of certain physical or behavioral traits.
 
Should all buyers do their homework and know what they are getting? Yes.
Do they always do this? No
Does a breeder have any responsibility to keep hybrids out of the pure corn blood if they can do so by making a little extra effort to label a hybrid as such? I say yes. It is one thing to wish and hope all buyers will be responsible, but the reality is they are not always going to know. So I think if a breeder cares about keeping hybrid blood out of the "pure corn" we DO have a responsibility. Of course the reality is, there is probably a little emoryi in all our snakes we don't even know about :shrugs:
 
I agree Jen.
And as much as I wish there was NO emoryi in cornsnake lines, better emoryi (which sometimes naturally intergrades with corns), than king or pine or gopher or milk.....
 
starsevol said:
And as much as I wish there was NO emoryi in cornsnake lines, better emoryi (which sometimes naturally intergrades with corns), than king or pine or gopher or milk.....
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I agree with Beth, for whatever reason Corn/Emoryi doesn’t seem as aberrant as Corn/King or Milk.

Lets also keep in mind that probably 99% of the snakes we breed and sell will die without producing any offspring themselves. Most snakes are sold to people that will keep them as a pet and never breed them. Snakes are not like dogs and cats and don’t reproduce without a fair amount of effort by the human. The likelihood of a “Jungle Corn” going on to pollute the gene pool is pretty slim.
 
starsevol said:
I agree Jen.
And as much as I wish there was NO emoryi in cornsnake lines, better emoryi (which sometimes naturally intergrades with corns), than king or pine or gopher or milk.....
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wade said:
I agree with Beth, for whatever reason Corn/Emoryi doesn’t seem as aberrant as Corn/King or Milk.

Lets also keep in mind that probably 99% of the snakes we breed and sell will die without producing any offspring themselves. Most snakes are sold to people that will keep them as a pet and never breed them. Snakes are not like dogs and cats and don’t reproduce without a fair amount of effort by the human. The likelihood of a “Jungle Corn” going on to pollute the gene pool is pretty slim.
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I agree with these posts 100% back in the day, Emoryi were considered to be a western corn snake.
 
I don't knowingly breed, or own, hybrids, so for me it's a non-issue other than staying away from any questionable stock.

That being said, I am personally becoming more "accepting" of the corn/king crosses as opposed to the corn/rat crosses due to their much more obvious hybrid appearance.

As for the buyer vs. seller "discussion . . . the seller is the one spending their hard (or not) earned money. It's their responsibility to do their homework, as they wish. Serious collectors and/or breeders will. The breeder IS responsible for being honest. Whether that's answering direct questions, or labeling honestly, i.e corn vs. creamsicle corn.

D80
 
Roy Munson said:
I think that most researchers consider a single wolf species, the gray wolf, to have been the ancestor of the domestic dog.


Some people like hybrids and some don't. For some, it is a matter of "polluting" the bloodlines of "pure" animals. Others may be concerned with the predictability of certain physical or behavioral traits.
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ghosthousecorns said:
Should all buyers do their homework and know what they are getting? Yes.
Do they always do this? No
Does a breeder have any responsibility to keep hybrids out of the pure corn blood if they can do so by making a little extra effort to label a hybrid as such? I say yes. It is one thing to wish and hope all buyers will be responsible, but the reality is they are not always going to know. So I think if a breeder cares about keeping hybrid blood out of the "pure corn" we DO have a responsibility. Of course the reality is, there is probably a little emoryi in all our snakes we don't even know about :shrugs:
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Emoryi, Emoryi, Emoryi, why is it always emory??!!
(Lame Brady Bunch reference.)

But why IS it always Emoryi?

While I agree that labeling the animals known genetics are important, I HAVE to wonder WHY is it that people seem to worry SO much about Emoryi and NOT about the other species/subspecies. They are JUST as detrimental to "pure" genetics as Emoryi, and possibly more so, as they can be even harder to detect.

If there were Ultra lines involving grey rats,(Elaphe obsoleta spiloides) where are they now? And why aren't people questioning these?

And what about Everglades rat snakes? (Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni)
These have been crossed into various Blood(reds) lines as well. I NEVER hear complaints about these.

How about the Upper keys corns? Elaphe guttata rosacea . While it MAY or MAY not intergrade with corns naturally. These are recognised as a SUBspecies. (Cinders?)

How do these NOT pollute the "pureness" of the gene pool?? Because they make cool morphs?

If the "Pure" corn gene pool is made up of Gutatta, Emoryi, Rosacea, Rossalleni, and Spiloides, then where is the pureness found?
If Charcoals or Caramels were known to be the result of breeding Emoryi into corns, Would anybody be as worried, whether their corns had Emoryi lineage, or would it be sought after?
 
abell82 said:
Emoryi, Emoryi, Emoryi, why is it always emory??!!
(Lame Brady Bunch reference.)

But why IS it always Emoryi?
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I agree with your post as it relates to questionable hybrids being more than just Emoryi. My guess for why it's always Emoryi is probably similar to most facial tissue being called Kleenex. :shrugs:

D80
 
abell82 said:
Emoryi, Emoryi, Emoryi, why is it always emory??!!
(Lame Brady Bunch reference.)

But why IS it always Emoryi?

While I agree that labeling the animals known genetics are important, I HAVE to wonder WHY is it that people seem to worry SO much about Emoryi and NOT about the other species/subspecies. They are JUST as detrimental to "pure" genetics as Emoryi, and possibly more so, as they can be even harder to detect.

If there were Ultra lines involving grey rats,(Elaphe obsoleta spiloides) where are they now? And why aren't people questioning these?

And what about Everglades rat snakes? (Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni)
These have been crossed into various Blood(reds) lines as well. I NEVER hear complaints about these.

How about the Upper keys corns? Elaphe guttata rosacea . While it MAY or MAY not intergrade with corns naturally. These are recognised as a SUBspecies. (Cinders?)

How do these NOT pollute the "pureness" of the gene pool?? Because they make cool morphs?

If the "Pure" corn gene pool is made up of Gutatta, Emoryi, Rosacea, Rossalleni, and Spiloides, then where is the pureness found?
If Charcoals or Caramels were known to be the result of breeding Emoryi into corns, Would anybody be as worried, whether their corns had Emoryi lineage, or would it be sought after?
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First off the gene pool is not consisted of Guattata, Emoryi etc... It may be the same species, but not the same sub species.
Beyond the exclusiveness and prestige people feel about saying " I keep only pure snakes" there's an ethical dilemma. The more you stray and force copulations that would not have occurred in the wild you are messing with mixing genes that should have never met- technically speaking. This can bring about any number of side effects. Today's pure dog breeds suffer from a great number of diseases and deformities because of in-breeding and our attempts to empower certain characteristics- Personally I'd rather than not happen with snakes.
Also, if we indeed love these animals, should we not preserve them rather than distort them in captivity?

It's also about minimizing the damage. Is it possible that some of us breed hybrids unknowingly? Sure. But if we don't oppose this at some point it will only get worse- not better. As time goes by, after enough generations have passed, the relative portion of foreign genes will become negligible- but that's only if people will actively try to "root it out". If Hybrids will be treated as pure snakes... well, we will all end up having hybrids.

Personally I breed hybrids, but I restrict myself to snakes of the same species. That's actually because there are no real alternatives when it comes to the particular colubrids I like. If it was a matter of pure choice I'd go with pure snakes.

There are many reasons for and against, both have valid points. There's no wrong or right. But a person should be aware that he has a hybrid in order to try and minimize the damage. In order to prevent a situation where we force someone who wishes to breed pure snakes into breeding hybrids because he is doing so without knowing it.
 
Drizzt80 said:
The breeder IS responsible for being honest. Whether that's answering direct questions, or labeling honestly, i.e corn vs. creamsicle corn.

D80
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I think that's part of the issue RE breeders selling to 'newbies'. Even if they had labelled it a "creamsicle corn", a newbie wouldn't know a creamsicle corn was a hybrid (just as the original poster didn't know a jungle corn was a hybrid).

I didn't either.

Granted, it took me a long time to even find out my snake was a creamsicle; after reading many books, joining this forum and finally, contacting the breeder (who confirmed the snake was labelled incorrectly).

Don't get me wrong, hybrid-appreciators, I don't care what he is; he's my first and only snake. But I remember what it was like to be a snake newbie, and it's genuinely a real shock to find out yours is a hybrid but more so, how strongly against creamsicles some people feel.

Will continue just to lurk now :)
 
I have purposely avoided purchasing any KNOWN hybrids, but I have to wonder what is really lurking in my collection. I know there is probably no such thing at this point as a "pure" corn, because somewhere in the past it is likely something else was either unknowingly or deliberately mixed in. But even if they are all probably hybrids already, why make it worse?
I bought an everglades rat snake at a PET store and it was sold to me mislabeled as a corn snake! I can imagine if someone new to the world of corns had bought it they would have taken the pet stores' word for it. Because I have seen this with my own eyes I feel it is more common than any of us would like for non corns or part corns to be sold as corns. That "dumping ground" analogy comes to mind. After all, what snake is most recommended to new owners? Maybe the pet store owner did not know better, or maybe they thought if they called it a corn snake someone would want to buy it.
Sure we can demand that the new buyers educate themselves, but what if the person they go to for knowledge doesn't really know either? What if they had an everglades rat snake and asked the owner of that pet store I just mentioned and were told "sure that is a corn snake!" Even this day and age not everyone can get on the internet and google.
I think it's not right to say it's all the buyers responsibility for not knowing what they are getting, they may have asked the wrong person who they thought was an authority on the subject. So by being too stubborn to mention it wasn't pure corn there, there is now the potential that person breeds the snakes and then sells them as corn snakes, say on craigslist or somewhere where other uneducated buyers might get it. So that ONE hybrid is now a bunch of them, all mistakenly assumed to be pure corn. All completely preventable by the seller of the first snake. I don't think it is too much to ask that if a breeder knows they are selling a hybrid, they make sure the buyer knows this too. Seriously how hard is it to put hybrid on a sticker, if you can fit a long morph name and a bunch of hets on one :rolleyes:
 
Tracee said:
I think that's part of the issue RE breeders selling to 'newbies'. Even if they had labelled it a "creamsicle corn", a newbie wouldn't know a creamsicle corn was a hybrid (just as the original poster didn't know a jungle corn was a hybrid).
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But that's my point. Creamsicle Corn IS accurate and honest. It's your responsibility to ask WHAT it is. Same with Jungle Corn. Labeling either of those just Corn is when it becomes dishonest. If I were to see (insert name here) Corn on a table or sales list it is MY responsibility to ask what it is. If it's pure corn, I'll get the genetics A crossed with Y. If it's a hybrid, I'd expect the honest breeder to answer as such. Either way, I'm responsible to do the asking, it's my money that's getting spent that I'm willingly giving to someone else.

D80
 
Thank you, Brent! That is precisely what I've been trying to say. A creamsicles is a known hybrid. Having something labeled as a creamsicle *should* imply that it is a hybrid. It is the buyer's responsibility to know that before purchasing an animal.

Having it mislabled as a cornsnake or butter corn, or whatever else is wrong. But as long as it's labeled a "creamsicle" it is labled correctly, AND it is labeled as a hybrid.

Jen...I agree with you that a buyer may have asked the wrong person. It happens. But asking one manager of a pet store before buying a snake is not "reasearch".

Sure...there might be one or two people left in the United States with the means to purchase and care for a snake, but not be able to access the internet. I don't have any idea where they might live...but I'm sure there are still one or two.

Anyplace with a coffee shop, library, or school is going to have access. And the general public will have access because of that. It's really only a matter of obtaining a library card or paying a $1 an hour at a local coffee shop. I don't think that is a good excuse for being ignorant or uninformed anymore.
 
I just did a search using the term "creamsicle" and using the subforum "the cultivars" and I found many "What would I get if I crossed a creamsicle with a... ? " threads, all from people who do have the internet. If the fact so many people on this forum have bought a creamsicle and thought it was a pure corn doesn't prove my point that a buyer might not know so it is important for the seller to make it clear, I don't know what else I can do or say. I am done arguing this. Happy Holidays!
 
tyflier said:
Sure...there might be one or two people left in the United States with the means to purchase and care for a snake, but not be able to access the internet. I don't have any idea where they might live...but I'm sure there are still one or two.
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North Dakota Chris, they both live in North Dakota. :grin01:
 
ghosthousecorns said:
I just did a search using the term "creamsicle" and using the subforum "the cultivars" and I found many "What would I get if I crossed a creamsicle with a... ? " threads, all from people who do have the internet. If the fact so many people on this forum have bought a creamsicle and thought it was a pure corn doesn't prove my point that a buyer might not know so it is important for the seller to make it clear, I don't know what else I can do or say. I am done arguing this. Happy Holidays!
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So really...whose fault is it that these people don't know there creamsicle is an intergrade? You said yourself they have the internet and are able to post so...whose fault is it?

I will bet dollars to donuts that every thread you saw mentioned at least once, that a creamsicle is a hybrid. I'll further bet that if you did a search for rootbeer, every single thread will make at least one mention of them being hybrids.

So really...whose at fault that the people owning these snakes aren't aware that they are hybrids?? With hundreds of threads dedicated to them, and every single one of them mentioning that "every baby will be a creamsicle or rootbeer, because they will always be hybrids" at least one time...I would say you have nicely proven how easy it is to find out that creamsicles are hybrids. And this is only one forum...

I am confused, though, why some people are against the inter-genus hybrids, but not so much interspecies, and even less-so inter-suspecies...

The ratsnake intergrades are difficult to visually discern as hybrids, it's no wonder people don't know. But the king/corn, milk/corn, pituophis/corn intergrades are so easily visually identifiable as intergrades, there is little confusion...or at least *should* be...

So why are people comfortable and accepting of sub-specific intergrades but not generic hybrids? It would seem to me that the hybrid nay-sayers would be more willing to accept the generic hybrids BECAUSE they are obviously hybrids, but the opposite seems to be the case...

Just an observation...right or wrong...
 
Why is it so hard to believe not everyone has the internet?
Jokes about North Dakota aside, there are households with no internet in rural areas and no other access (no libraries)where it is not that easy to find out these things. For example, in 2006 most of the public libraries in Southern Oregon were closed due to lack of funding. That's several thousand people at least. who were left without the ability to go to a library and get online.
My point about the threads on this forum is that these people didn't know they had a hybrid until someone here took the time and initiative to educate them. I am grateful there are people who are willing to do so.
If someone had not bothered to tell them they had a hybrid, they still wouldn't know.
I think assuming a buyer will know what they are getting is less responsible than making sure they do. I care more about the population of all the cornsnakes that are out there being kept as pure as possible, than I do about the "why should I be the one that has to take an extra step to teach someone." It's easy for someone who already knows what a creamsicle is to blame the people that don't know for their ignorance. But it's also so very easy to tell someone that's a hybrid in the first place.
And to make it clear, I am not at all in disagreement that "It's the buyers responsibility to know what they are buying" But at the same time I am rather disappointed so few sellers seem to feel much responsibility at all to make sure the hybrid they sell doesn't end up polluting the pure corns out there when it's so easy to just make a little label or say something. You're right, you shouldn't HAVE to educate buyers. But forget them, for the sake of all the corn snakes out there now and in future generations - don't you WANT to? Is the principle of the thing really worth it if that snake gets bred into the corns down the road just because it wasn't your responsibility to tell the buyer the cream wasn't pure corn?
P.S. I just searched creamsicle on kingsnake classifieds, and out of ten ads only two breeders bothered to say something like hybrid or guttata X emoryi cross. So I can accept I am in the minority point of view here, Agree to disagree and all that. I thought I was done arguing this, but I wanted to at least try and tackle the questions asked of me by Chris.
As for jungle vs. emoryi crosses, I can only speak for myself but I really don't like either kind. I guess i am one of the hybrid naysayers :shrugs:
 
:) Endrin, I don't hate the hybrids, many are pretty and some of them are spectacular, but not my cup of tea. When I said I don't like hybrids maybe I should have added "In my collection."
Please do not take offense... at one time I was even considering doing a corn X greeri kingsnake cross myself, but when it came down to it I just didn't want to do it. I have sold all my kingsnakes and the everglades rat I used to have and I am down to just corns... maybe not forever, though.
 
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