hybrids vs. nonhybrids

[Midnght]

It is hard to think of all the ramifications of a single act. I guess that is why attorneys put so many labels and warnings on everything. I am getting the impression from Midnight that his Jungle Corn ate a cohabitation mate. I didn’t even think of that.

I have got to say it out loud however. I couldn’t even count how many warnings I have read about the problems associated with cohabitation. Most of them were found in the same places I have read about Jungle Corns being a King/Corn hybrid.

Is there anyone in the room who hasn’t laughed at the warning that a child might drown in a five gallon bucket? Don’t get me wrong. It would be a horrible tragedy. But give me a break, is it really the bucket manufactures responsibility?

Yes that's what happened Wade.

Funnier still though is how I should know what a corn looked like, or new the naming convetions of hybrids. Up till today I thought My Creamsicle Corn is what a corn looked like.

So you can see how this is all wonderfully hmmm ironic perhaps?

I do know this.

I own a Jungle Corn
And a 0.1 05 Crimson Bought from here http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/att...id=54663&stc=1
and I have an adoption I need to find out what he is. Looks like a bloodred but I'll let ya'll be the judges of that.

BTW here's the poor guy who was eaten. He came with the crimson. }:>(
2.0 06 Miamis pretty nice poss. het Motley
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/att...id=54666&stc=1
}:>)

 

[Midnght]

What? I am one of the people who AGREES a breeder should include hybrid on the label! Sorry I tried to help.

MOST people do not have their head buried this deep in the sand! It is mainly for the reason that some people do that I feel breeders should make sure buyers know it's a hybrid.
You did no research, you thought it was pure corn and cohabbed it - note it is also the cohabbers who don't research that often end up having the "oops" clutches of eggs and selling them as pure corn.. if the snakes don't eat each other that is.

What a train wreck... At least I learned a new funny word.
Dorfbunkle! Dorfbunkle! Dorfbunkle!

I read that sorry ghost it wasn't meant like that It was more of an introspection. About what I should have known. Based on what I had. when I said you. sorry. }:>)

 

[ghosthousecorns]

That's OK I thought you were quoting me... I can be snippy sometimes

Anyway the main thing is live and learn, I know you had to do it the hard way and that sucks - still those are the lessons we remember always.

 

[tyflier]

Midnight, I don't think you're completely grasping the points being made on either side of the debate...

My point is this..."Jungle Corn" is, absolutely, labeled as a hybrid. The very term "Jungle Corn" is ONLY used to describe a hybrid, and EVERY time it is is used, it is in referance to a hybrid. Yet you feel that I should always write "Jungle Corn(hybrid)" everytime I use the term. I find this ludicrous. Learn the terminology.

I don't write "Amel Corn(simple recessive genetic in homozygous status)", because I assume people know what an amel corn is. If they DON'T know what an amel corn is...they should ASK what an amel corn is.

EXACTLY like a Jungle corn.

It's really very simple, in my opinion. If you see something you have never seen before or aren't sure what it is...ask.

There is a HUGE difference between being LIED to and not asking...I don't expect every customer to know what questions to ask. But I do expect people to be smart enough to say, "Oooh, what's that?" when they see something brand new to them or completely different.

And just for clarification...this entire debate is based and argued upon opinion. Thedre is no right or wrong answer, only personal opinions and choices. Please stop quoting me and telling me "You're wrong". My OPINION isn't wrong. It is my opinion. It may be different than yours...but it is valid and accurate.

 

[dionythicus]

I don't think it's fair to assume that the buyer shares all the responsibility of knowing that "jungle corn" means it's a hybrid. I am the breeder, I know exactly what that animal is (hybrid) and I think it's my duty to label it as such. Without that, we start getting into the "well no one told me it wasn't a pure corn" and in my opinion is where we start getting fingers pointed at breeders as being dishonest. I don't mean you, personally, but how many times have we seen or heard "I don't mind hybrids as long as the seller clearly labels them as such". It does appear that you're saying you don't need to label them as hybrids and that begets more controversy.

I don't know what the heck most parts of a car are, but am I expected to know what engine they put in my car just because it's a Kia? If the seller doesn't label it, am I supposed to just know because it's a Kia and I've been driving for nearly twenty years? There is some responsibility on both sides to make sure the information is correct when selling any product, including snakes.

 

[Midnght]

Midnight, I don't think you're completely grasping the points being made on either side of the debate...

My point is this..."Jungle Corn" is, absolutely, labeled as a hybrid. The very term "Jungle Corn" is ONLY used to describe a hybrid, and EVERY time it is is used, it is in referance to a hybrid. Yet you feel that I should always write "Jungle Corn(hybrid)" everytime I use the term. I find this ludicrous. Learn the terminology.

I don't write "Amel Corn(simple recessive genetic in homozygous status)", because I assume people know what an amel corn is. If they DON'T know what an amel corn is...they should ASK what an amel corn is.

EXACTLY like a Jungle corn.

It's really very simple, in my opinion. If you see something you have never seen before or aren't sure what it is...ask.

There is a HUGE difference between being LIED to and not asking...I don't expect every customer to know what questions to ask. But I do expect people to be smart enough to say, "Oooh, what's that?" when they see something brand new to them or completely different.

And just for clarification...this entire debate is based and argued upon opinion. Thedre is no right or wrong answer, only personal opinions and choices. Please stop quoting me and telling me "You're wrong". My OPINION isn't wrong. It is my opinion. It may be different than yours...but it is valid and accurate.

It is based on opinion and based on my opinion your opinion is inaccuarate about it not being any of the breeders fault.

See if you followed the chain well between you and I here's how it went.

You feel I should have known a Jungle Corn is a hybrid. I should have been able to spot the differance, or asked a question, or gleaned the info form the internet. That you as a breeder need not tell me anything on this matter even in the tiniest of ways.

That I should have know makes a lot of assumptions about me or any of your buyers.

I bought my snake 15 years ago. Do you recall what the internet was like 15 years ago? It was not like today. I picked my snake up from a pet store labled creamsicle cornsnake. So by your assumptions my buying this snake should allow me to differentiate a Jungle from any standard corn. Or I should have become know it all of corns because I bought one. Owning a pet does not constitute becoming an offcianado.
Expecting those who should know more than me to impart this info to me is my fault and I'll not trust a breeder to be open and honest. You're aboslutely right there, my bad for expecting some integrity in breeders.


So you can have your opinion I do think it's incorrect.
But at the same time.
I'll tell you what.
I'll stop saying your wrong (which I have only done once perhaps twice if you count this post) when you stop telling me, not knowing was my fault, or singling me out as an example to prove your points which I don't agree with when it comes to hybrid corns and breeders (despite the evidence that your a relatively new breeder to the open market per your webpage) doing some small part to prevent the ignorance you wish buyers didn't have.

I'm sure you as a breeder have gone to more lengths to know more.
I as a pet owner know what I need to, to care , feed and house my pets.
We don't all have the desire to know everything there is to know about somethings past.

 

[wade]

Midnight, did you buy Timiro because it was a cornsnake or because it was a creamsicle cornsnake? Or did you buy it because you thought it was pretty? Do you think your family will love it less now that they know it was a hybrid?

It seems to me you got what you wanted, a pretty snake to raise. It isn’t any less now that you know a little more about it.

Most new snake owners kill their snake during the first year because they don’t take the time to learn about them and learn the best way to take care of them. That isn’t the fault of the seller. Most of the breeders I know will answer the same questions over and over and listen to endless nonsense until the new snake owner has run out of things to say and questions to ask. Most of the breeders I know are pretty savvy when it comes to snakes and will give you good information. I don’t know any that are keeping secrets.

You seem determined to feel cheated. I’m sorry you had a problem with your Jungle Corn. You need to understand that all snakes have the potential to be cannibals. Not just kingsnakes. You need to take some responsibility for what happened here too.

 

[reptile_jones]

It is based on opinion and based on my opinion your opinion is inaccuarate about it not being any of the breeders fault.

See if you followed the chain well between you and I here's how it went.

You feel I should have known a Jungle Corn is a hybrid. I should have been able to spot the differance, or asked a question, or gleaned the info form the internet. That you as a breeder need not tell me anything on this matter even in the tiniest of ways.

That I should have know makes a lot of assumptions about me or any of your buyers.

I bought my snake 15 years ago. Do you recall what the internet was like 15 years ago? It was not like today. I picked my snake up from a pet store labled creamsicle cornsnake. So by your assumptions my buying this snake should allow me to differentiate a Jungle from any standard corn. Or I should have become know it all of corns because I bought one. Owning a pet does not constitute becoming an offcianado.
Expecting those who should know more than me to impart this info to me is my fault and I'll not trust a breeder to be open and honest. You're aboslutely right there, my bad for expecting some integrity in breeders.


So you can have your opinion I do think it's incorrect.
But at the same time.
I'll tell you what.
I'll stop saying your wrong (which I have only done once perhaps twice if you count this post) when you stop telling me, not knowing was my fault, or singling me out as an example to prove your points which I don't agree with when it comes to hybrid corns and breeders (despite the evidence that your a relatively new breeder to the open market per your webpage) doing some small part to prevent the ignorance you wish buyers didn't have.

I'm sure you as a breeder have gone to more lengths to know more.
I as a pet owner know what I need to, to care , feed and house my pets.
We don't all have the desire to know everything there is to know about somethings past.

Not that you should have know, but should have asked more about it? If you got it for a pet and not for breeding what does it matter.

 

[Midnght]

Midnight, did you buy Timiro because it was a cornsnake or because it was a creamsicle cornsnake? Or did you buy it because you thought it was pretty? Do you think your family will love it less now that they know it was a hybrid?

It seems to me you got what you wanted, a pretty snake to raise. It isn’t any less now that you know a little more about it.

Most new snake owners kill their snake during the first year because they don’t take the time to learn about them and learn the best way to take care of them. That isn’t the fault of the seller. Most of the breeders I know will answer the same questions over and over and listen to endless nonsense until the new snake owner has run out of things to say and questions to ask. Most of the breeders I know are pretty savvy when it comes to snakes and will give you good information. I don’t know any that are keeping secrets.

You seem determined to feel cheated. I’m sorry you had a problem with your Jungle Corn. You need to understand that all snakes have the potential to be cannibals. Not just kingsnakes. You need to take some responsibility for what happened here too.

I bought her because I she was a cornsnake far as I knew. She was pretty but I wanted a snake and I knew corn snakes were relatively easy to care for, didn't get to big, non posionous, a good first snake to buy. The classic cliches of the herping world. As for the family no they will never think less of her doesn't matter what she was. }:>)

Oh no I don't think there's anything wrong with hybrids they are pretty. I'd buy it if i liked it no doubt about that.
For me though knowing the mix would have saved the life of one of my reptiles more than likely.

It's tough to learn these things late. But even the first snake that was eaten (as i tried twice) I housed with timiro. Is the creamsicle hybrid prone to cannabilism I don't know yet, sure didn't know then.

I was even doing some thinking about when I bout the jungle with another (supposedly corn snake, this is the one timiro ate) the breeder I bought from said I could cohab them. Perhaps I was speaking to an assitant. But I mean I'm listening to what should be trusted sources.

I really don't feel cheated at all. I never went back to the breeder demanding money back or anything. I knew enough that trying to cohab was risky business. That's squarely on my head. But if I knew they were not pure corns espcially the jungle. I never would have put another snake in with the jungle. I did own a king snake before and know enough about them to be a pet owner. I even fed my king a few snakes garters that had been run over by bicycles near the house and were dieing. But I don't feel cheated I just wish I had known and the breeder I purchased from was partly responsible for that. That I really do feel.

 

[abell82]

That I should have know makes a lot of assumptions about me or any of your buyers.

I bought my snake 15 years ago. Do you recall what the internet was like 15 years ago? It was not like today. I picked my snake up from a pet store labled creamsicle cornsnake. So by your assumptions my buying this snake should allow me to differentiate a Jungle from any standard corn. Or I should have become know it all of corns because I bought one. Owning a pet does not constitute becoming an offcianado.
Expecting those who should know more than me to impart this info to me is my fault and I'll not trust a breeder to be open and honest. You're aboslutely right there, my bad for expecting some integrity in breeders.


So you can have your opinion I do think it's incorrect.
But at the same time.
I'll tell you what.
I'll stop saying your wrong (which I have only done once perhaps twice if you count this post) when you stop telling me, not knowing was my fault, or singling me out as an example to prove your points which I don't agree with when it comes to hybrid corns and breeders (despite the evidence that your a relatively new breeder to the open market per your webpage) doing some small part to prevent the ignorance you wish buyers didn't have.

I'm sure you as a breeder have gone to more lengths to know more.
I as a pet owner know what I need to, to care , feed and house my pets.
We don't all have the desire to know everything there is to know about somethings past.

For me though knowing the mix would have saved the life of one of my reptiles more than likely.

It's tough to learn these things late. But even the first snake that was eaten (as i tried twice) I housed with timiro. Is the creamsicle hybrid prone to cannabilism I don't know yet, sure didn't know then.

I was even doing some thinking about when I bout the jungle with another (supposedly corn snake, this is the one timiro ate) the breeder I bought from said I could cohab them. Perhaps I was speaking to an assitant. But I mean I'm listening to what should be trusted sources.

I really don't feel cheated at all. I never went back to the breeder demanding money back or anything. I knew enough that trying to cohab was risky business. That's squarely on my head. But if I knew they were not pure corns espcially the jungle. I never would have put another snake in with the jungle. I did own a king snake before and know enough about them to be a pet owner. I even fed my king a few snakes garters that had been run over by bicycles near the house and were dieing. But I don't feel cheated I just wish I had known and the breeder I purchased from was partly responsible for that. That I really do feel.

Midnght

I am a little lost here, first of all WHO ate who??

Did you put a baby snake in with a full grown snake? Because this is what it sounds like. And This is a BIG no no to ALL snake keepers.

Second, Not only did you loose ONE snake to CO-Habbing, you lost TWO??

Were these eaten by the same animal or different animals?
I MIGHT be able to understand, IF you say 2 different animals but I'd still think it was ABSOLUTELY your fault. (fool me once...)

And finally I feel THAT YOU Midnght Are BARELY taking responsibility for your actions.

If You lost 2 snakes, to co-habbing,:eats02: even though you knew it was risky to do, and you did not stop after losing one, you went ahead, and did it again.:eats02: How can you claim its not your fault, hybrids or not?? If you had taken the time to learn more, then you would be happier now.

Since You did not take the time or effort to properly house them, this is then YOUR fault. You don't have to be an offcianado to learn proper care and husbandry. Being a responsible pet owner is JUST like raising a child.You are making claims that just plain SCARE me, especially knowing that you have a kid!


I think you are just fanning the flames to keep this discussion going.

 

[wade]

It's tough to learn these things late. But even the first snake that was eaten (as i tried twice) I housed with timiro. Is the creamsicle hybrid prone to cannabilism I don't know yet, sure didn't know then.

Couple of things before I walk away shaking my head.

Cornsnakes are not prone to cannibalism nor are Ratsnakes nor or Cornsnake hybrids. Any snake may eat another. King snakes eat other snakes for a living. Their name “King” comes form that fact. King Cobras in India and the King Brown in Australia all eat other snakes.

Happened twice did it? Hmmm. Still cohabing???? Read any good books lately.

 

[Kokopelli]

Tyflier, honestly. You -really- think that shedding schedule is more important than printing hybrid?
If you find the space to write it all down, I don't think it will kill you to add that.

Also I have to full heartily disagree with the pepsi analogy. We're talking about a living breathing animal. Not a can of Pepsi. And not only is it a living animal, it also suffers from a lot of misinformation and prejudice. If you care about the animal, yes I think you should make sure that the person who buys it -wants- what he is getting. Or else you just throw it to all winds and just want to punch in a sale.

If it says jungle CORN- a person can easily think it's a morph. Why does it make less sense than a Lava Corn? Or Miami Corn? You expect everyone who buys a cornsnake to be familiar with all the morphs and localities as well?

Even educated people can make the mistake here because there is such a thing "Jungle morph" in BCI's for instance, And BP's if I recall correctly.
The term "Jungle morph" is familiar to those people who are already "within the community". People outside of the community who wise to buy a snake and become a member are not aware of the terminology and it makes absolutely no sense what so ever to demand that they do.

Pet shops can sell animals without making sure the person buys all the things the animal will need. They don't -have- to make sure of anything. But is it right? Is it ethical?
We, who are suppose to love the animals we breed. I think it only makes sense and I don't think that adding that little word is such a task that it would warrant the persistent objection.
From the side-lines, it seems like people just prefer not to label them as such in order to prevent a decrease in sales. I hope this impression is wrong. If you already take the time to label the things you said, adding a single word will not overtask you.

I think that comparing snakes to a product every single person knows or runs into on a daily basis is wrong, snakes are not common knowledge. Coke is.

To seek to wash responsibility from one's hands and throw it at the buyer... well it clashes with my ethics.

 

[Kokopelli]

Couple of things before I walk away shaking my head.

Cornsnakes are not prone to cannibalism nor are Ratsnakes nor or Cornsnake hybrids. Any snake may eat another. King snakes eat other snakes for a living. Their name “King” comes form that fact. King Cobras in India and the King Brown in Australia all eat other snakes.

Happened twice did it? Hmmm. Still cohabing???? Read any good books lately.

All I can say is that a friend of mine has a Jungle Corn and she tried to eat another cornsnake(my friend co-habbed... now she doesn't)

 

[ForkedTung]

Also I have to full heartily disagree with the pepsi analogy. We're talking about a living breathing animal. Not a can of Pepsi.

With everything going on in this thread. You have chosen to also take issue with the use of an analogy? Really? I think that most analogies are by nature abstract, yes one is alive and one is not, but we're talking about labels here. Both corns and sodas share this phenomenon...

Analogy plays a significant role in problem solving, decision making, perception, memory, creativity, emotion, explanation and communication. It lies behind basic tasks such as the identification of places, objects and people,... It has been argued that analogy is "the core of cognition" (Hofstadter in Gentner et al. 2001).

 

[Kokopelli]

With this specific analogy? yes. Think as you wish but the consequences of buying the wrong type of soda are hardly as severe as buying an animal you may not want. The greater the risk, the greater the effort to prevent it should be. Saying that snakes and Pepsi are both common knowledge is also plain wrong.
I don't mind using analogies, I do think that the one used is inappropriate.

 

[Chip]

The severity of the purchase doesn't take away from FT's analogy, Kokpelli. And as for snakes vs. Pepsi, I know what a jungle corn is; I have no idea what that funky Pepsi is all about. As a pet store owner, my biggest frustration is people who buy animals and don't even consider learning about them. I give a free corn snake book with every corn purchase, and I bet 1/3rd of 'em only look at pictures. Eh, I rant. Merry Christmas.

 

[Susan]

An analogy with dogs was mentioned awhile back in this thread, but I never got around to posting a response at the time, but I will now. I see puppies like these advertised for sale quite often and we have quite a few that come into our hospital. All their records have them labeled as Malamute mix or Husky mix. Cute aren't they!

Unfortunately, you cannot treat these pups like a typical dog because if you do, you are guaranteed to run into trouble. These are wolf hybrids and their body language and behavior is that of a wolf, which is different than that of a domestic dog. The vet I work for owned several of these and I have personally worked with them. What the lay person would assume to be a friendly dog giving you a nice greeting is in actuality, an aggressive warning to back off or else! Unfortunately, due to county/city/whatever regulations, if they are labeled for what they truly are, they have to be kept under specific permits and requirements. Not too many people want to go through that hassle. We also see quite a few "Lab" mixes that look like this:

In today's society, the consumer has the responsibility to know what they are purchasing because all too often, it is "Buyer Beware". I hate to say it, but there are reptile breeders that this is true of. But I will also say that there are many honest breeders that do not misrepresent their herps. But it still boils down to the consumer to be able to tell the difference. This goes for ANYTHING that someone is purchasing.

FOR SALE! This car is really HOT!!!! (I really love those commercials!)

 

[Kokopelli]

The severity of the purchase doesn't take away from FT's analogy, Kokpelli. And as for snakes vs. Pepsi, I know what a jungle corn is; I have no idea what that funky Pepsi is all about. As a pet store owner, my biggest frustration is people who buy animals and don't even consider learning about them. I give a free corn snake book with every corn purchase, and I bet 1/3rd of 'em only look at pictures. Eh, I rant. Merry Christmas.

You're a pet shop owner- you're familiar with snakes because that's a part of your day to day work. If you weren't in said profession, the chances of you knowing the term is rather slim.
However, the chance that you will know the name of the brand of soda you like is quite high- regardless of your daily activities.
And if "God forbid" you will buy the wrong type of soda- worse case scenario you say "ack" and be done with it.
When you put a snake's life on the line- yes, a million times yes, it makes a difference as far as I am concerned

 

[ForkedTung]

With this specific analogy? yes. Think as you wish but the consequences of buying the wrong type of soda are hardly as severe as buying an animal you may not want. The greater the risk, the greater the effort to prevent it should be. Saying that snakes and Pepsi are both common knowledge is also plain wrong.
I don't mind using analogies, I do think that the one used is inappropriate.

While I agree with everything you have written here, there is nothing there that goes without saying.
It's kind of like If I said:
" I think the best watches are made in Switzerland"
and you said:
" There are sixty seconds in a minute"
You're addressing tangents outside the intent of the analogy.

 

[endrin]

What eals is their to do when the bottom line of a discussion comes down to personal taste.