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just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?

How about someone makes a new topic to address animal cruelty in the Netherlands so we stop polluting this thread?

What I would like to see is proof of how cohabbing is stressing my snakes out. I've witnessed the same changes the OP has since I've cohabbed some of them - they are way calmer, have a slower, more normal breath rate when approached, never refused a meal and never exhibited any sort of stress or territorial behaviour. Personally, I haven't owned snakes for a full snake lifespan yet, but all the people I know over here who cohab have had their snakes live normal life spans with no health issues that you wouldn't encounter in snakes that are homed seperately. In the years that I've had my snakes, none of them have had ANY health issues whatsoever except for Saphira, who recently had an oviduct prolapse (note that she has been housed seperately for a while now). Do I take this as proof that seperate homing of snakes is bad for them and causes oviduct prolapses? No. That's a ridiculous conclusion to jump to. Does that mean I'll go and scavenge for threads to spout my opinion regarding cohabbing on whenever a snake that is not cohabbed gets a health issue? No! I will stick to the topic and try to answer any questions the OP might have, without spouting ridiculous accusations such as "YOU ARE KILLING YOUR SNAKES" when I have zero proof for that.
 
How about someone makes a new topic to address animal cruelty in the Netherlands so we stop polluting this thread?

What I would like to see is proof of how cohabbing is stressing my snakes out. I've witnessed the same changes the OP has since I've cohabbed some of them - they are way calmer, have a slower, more normal breath rate when approached, never refused a meal and never exhibited any sort of stress or territorial behaviour. Personally, I haven't owned snakes for a full snake lifespan yet, but all the people I know over here who cohab have had their snakes live normal life spans with no health issues that you wouldn't encounter in snakes that are homed seperately. In the years that I've had my snakes, none of them have had ANY health issues whatsoever except for Saphira, who recently had an oviduct prolapse (note that she has been housed seperately for a while now). Do I take this as proof that seperate homing of snakes is bad for them and causes oviduct prolapses? No. That's a ridiculous conclusion to jump to. Does that mean I'll go and scavenge for threads to spout my opinion regarding cohabbing on whenever a snake that is not cohabbed gets a health issue? No! I will stick to the topic and try to answer any questions the OP might have, without spouting ridiculous accusations such as "YOU ARE KILLING YOUR SNAKES" when I have zero proof for that.

That is why stress is called the silent killer. Of course you won't see it. And yes, you are killing your snakes, or at least giving them a horrible crappy life. Way to go!!!
 
Wait, so because I see no proof of ANY STRESS or stress related issues, it's a silent killer? That's about as sound a reasoning as claiming that feeding your corn snake mice kills them. Can't see any proof of it and your snakes live normal, long, healthy lives? That's cause it's a silent killer! Same goes for letting them drink water or housing them on bedding. Oh, and keeping them in wooden vivs and glass vivs is deadly too!

Sorry, but that made absolutely no sense.

On a side note, I've reported this thread and hope a mod will clean it up soon. This is getting completely ridiculous.
 
Wait, so because I see no proof of ANY STRESS or stress related issues, it's a silent killer? That's about as sound a reasoning as claiming that feeding your corn snake mice kills them. Can't see any proof of it and your snakes live normal, long, healthy lives? That's cause it's a silent killer! Same goes for letting them drink water or housing them on bedding. Oh, and keeping them in wooden vivs and glass vivs is deadly too!

Sorry, but that made absolutely no sense.

On a side note, I've reported this thread and hope a mod will clean it up soon. This is getting completely ridiculous.

Like I said before, in the wild if an animal shows distress it shortly after becomes prey. They instinctivly will not show stress. Usually when a snake shows there is something wrong, it is too late to save it.

And please, tell me how forcing an animal with a companion that goes against every.single.instinct it has is benefitting it?

Cruelty, pure and simple.

Edited to add, what is really ridiculous is you reporting a thread because you don't like what is being said. You don't like your cruel husbandry practices being questioned. Have you not noticed that one of the most outspoken posters in this thread IS A MODERATOR?????
 
And please, tell me how forcing an animal with a companion that goes against every.single.instinct it has is benefitting it?

Okay, I have no proof for this. This is from personal observation and holds no scientific value.

Several of my snakes that were extremely shy and would rattle their tails or even do mock attacks when I would pick them up to feed them or give them a check-up, have settled down completely since being cohabbed. This means I can now pick them up, feed them and otherwise handle them without causing additional stress. I find that to be a major advantage. I'm fairly convinced that snakes don't form bonds or friendships with each other, but my theory is that the calming effect happens because they get more used to being around movement and being touched by other moving things.

Again, I have no scientific proof for any of this, but at least I KNOW I'm speculating. It's very easy to yell "omg you monster", but what good does it do when you have only examples of times where it's gone wrong (and almost always due to the owner's own mistakes)? This is almost at the point of the hybrid discussions now - ranting, yelling at each other and saying extremely mean things without backing it up or even realizing that this wasn't what the thread was about in the first place. How about you try to respect someone elses opinion without accusing them of animal cruelty?
 
Mods don't edit or delete anything on this site. Nor are threads required to remain on topic.

Alright, my bad. I was under the impression that right-out telling someone that they are killing their snakes and that "we don't like people like you here" would fall under hateful or at the very least a personal attack. My bad. I'll stay off this thread for now.

Again, OP, my apologies, and I hope you won't let these people get under your skin. You're very well entitled to making your own decisions, and as long as you do the research, cohabbing can be done very well :)
 
Okay, I have no proof for this. This is from personal observation and holds no scientific value.

Several of my snakes that were extremely shy and would rattle their tails or even do mock attacks when I would pick them up to feed them or give them a check-up, have settled down completely since being cohabbed. This means I can now pick them up, feed them and otherwise handle them without causing additional stress. I find that to be a major advantage. I'm fairly convinced that snakes don't form bonds or friendships with each other, but my theory is that the calming effect happens because they get more used to being around movement and being touched by other moving things.

Again, I have no scientific proof for any of this, but at least I KNOW I'm speculating. It's very easy to yell "omg you monster", but what good does it do when you have only examples of times where it's gone wrong (and almost always due to the owner's own mistakes)? This is almost at the point of the hybrid discussions now - ranting, yelling at each other and saying extremely mean things without backing it up or even realizing that this wasn't what the thread was about in the first place. How about you try to respect someone elses opinion without accusing them of animal cruelty?

For the first part, SCIENTISTS and NATURALISTS are saying that these animals are solitary animals.

And sure, a calmer less bitey snake benefits YOU, but what if the snake is high strung by nature and by housing it in with another snake it is not allowed to exhibit it's true disposition. What if what you are doing is forcing the snake to act in a way it wouldn't act naturally?

Some snakes are naturally calmer and nicer than others. Some aren't. What you might see as a calmer animal might in fact be an animal that is stressed into being something it isn't.
 
Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.
 
Bottom line, they are yours to abuse and kill.

But most of us here don't like people who do that sort of thing......

telling someone that they are killing their snakes

and that "we don't like people like you here" would fall under hateful or at the very least a personal attack.

Paraphrasing is not the same as a direct quote. See the difference?
 
Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.

+1 to this.

Well said Nanci!
 
If anyone is having trouble understanding why I am posting in normal person black, and moderator blue, that is because I _am_ allowed to have a personal opinion here, I am not, as a regular member, required to be impartial. If I make a statement as a moderator, it will be noted as such.
 
Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.


Word. ^^^^^^^^^^^

Tried to rep you and I have to spread it around. Someone please get it for me.
 
I'm out of Nanci rep too. I have heard people argue for dogfighting because their dog "likes to fight." That's about as logical as the cohabbing arguments.
 
For the first part, SCIENTISTS and NATURALISTS are saying that these animals are solitary animals.

And sure, a calmer less bitey snake benefits YOU, but what if the snake is high strung by nature and by housing it in with another snake it is not allowed to exhibit it's true disposition. What if what you are doing is forcing the snake to act in a way it wouldn't act naturally?

Some snakes are naturally calmer and nicer than others. Some aren't. What you might see as a calmer animal might in fact be an animal that is stressed into being something it isn't.

As for snakes not being solitary animals - I'll come back to the cat example. They are solitary creatures in the wild, yet TONS of people house them together. Do you go around telling those people that they are killing their cats because of stress? Or how about dogs, who naturally live in packs. Do you go around telling people who only have one dog that they are killing their dog because of stress?

Back to snakes - I'll go for the more scientific approach then. Abnormally high heart rates and breath rates are considered signs of stress (not taking into account the breath rate when snakes are smelling their environment, as it's a lot higher then). If the snake is obviously stressed, bity and "high strung", that doens't benefit the snake in any way. It does benefit me personally if I don't get bit every time I pick up my snakes, but that's not why I like them to be calm (honestly, corn snake bites aren't that bad). I like them calm because it benefits THEM. High stress hormone levels aren't good for any creature. Biting me all the time won't help them either (possible issues with accidental tooth extraction, etc).

You keep bringing up how a snake "would act naturally". The thing is, we're taking them out of the wild and putting them into a situation where they cannot act naturally. They can't hunt (unless you release them onto a large patch of land with live mice?), they can't explore, they don't face dangers such as predators or physical injury by sharp objects. The behaviour you describe (biting, being high strung, etc) are a direct result of those threats in the wild. Being stressed helps them to survive, there. In captivity, none of that is necessary as they don't face any threats (or at least, not if we can help it). I'm not "not allowing my snake to exhibit its true disposition", I'm putting them in a situation where they get used to touch so they don't get stressed out every time they are picked up.

I do think that if people want to cohab, they should keep in mind that each snake is different. My male, for instance, does not respond well to cohabbing - he displays some barely noticable signs of stress when cohabbed, so he has his own viv. Not all snakes will be suited for living together, just like some humans aren't.

Of course you can't SEE stress. You can only see its effects. The whole point is, (and after this, I GIVE UP-) there is NO benefit to keeping snakes together. There is actual or potential harm. Whether you can define or quantify the harm depends on how acutely observant you are of your snakes, who are programmed to never show stress at the risk of becoming prey. If you want to accept that risk for your animals, who don't have a choice, who depend on you to provide, not the most convenient living conditions, but the most optimal living conditions, then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. Whatever. As Beth says- they are yours to put in harm's way. You're the human, you have dominion- go for it. Just don't expect most educated keepers to pat you on the back for putting your animals at risk.

I'm very much aware of the fact that you can't see stress. Like you said, you can see its effects. If you, however, don't see any effects over a large group of people that are properly cohabbed (enough space, enough hides, enough food, fed seperately), that may not be proof that cohabbing can be done without increased risk, but it surely is an indication.

As for noticing signs of stress, I'm very much aware that I'm not an expert. I do, however, have a lot of experience in noticing small things, small changes in behaviour, breathing, feeding pattern, etc. as we were taught these things in veterinary medicine. Furthermore, I've raised each of my snakes myself and am very familiar with their normal behavioural patterns - changes in those could also indicate stress. I love my snakes to bits, and if I thought that cohabbing them did any harm, I certainly wouldn't be doing it. Telling people who cohab that they are killing their snakes or that it's animal cruelty is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily harsh and harmful thing to say.

Again, I understand that people have different opinions, but I just wish people would be at least somewhat respectful to one another without resorting to guilt-tripping someone into thinking they are doing as much as KILLING their snakes. When a simple question like "how long does it take for scale rot to manifest itself" is asked, no one asks you to start spouting opinions about cohabbing, ESPECIALLY if the OP already asked you to stop it and stay on topic. I know many of you bash Carpe Serpentis for bringing up the hybrid topic when it's not related to the original post, but the exact same thing is happening here... I'm half waiting for the "show pics of your collection then!" -.-
 
Just a quick correction - wild/feral dogs are not pack animals, they are opportunistic scavengers. They will come together as a group if it benefits them, but they will separate when that benefit is over. True packs are wolves (family units) and hyenas.

I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.

Carry on. ;)
 
Just a quick correction - wild/feral dogs are not pack animals, they are opportunistic scavengers. They will come together as a group if it benefits them, but they will separate when that benefit is over. True packs are wolves (family units) and hyenas.

I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.

Carry on. ;)

Wow, a sensible argument, thanks for that :). Yes, stress can cause things to manifest themselves faster, so a meaningful reply to the topic would have been "Normally, it takes about x days for it to manifest itself, but the fact that you're cohabbing might mean extra stress so it could be a bit faster than that". Instead, we already have about 4 pages of discussion on cohabbing that I sadly contributed to :(
 
As for snakes not being solitary animals - I'll come back to the cat example. They are solitary creatures in the wild, yet TONS of people house them together. Do you go around telling those people that they are killing their cats because of stress? Or how about dogs, who naturally live in packs. Do you go around telling people who only have one dog that they are killing their dog because of stress?

. I love my snakes to bits, and if I thought that cohabbing them did any harm, I certainly wouldn't be doing it. Telling people who cohab that they are killing their snakes or that it's animal cruelty is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily harsh and harmful thing to say.

Again, I understand that people have different opinions, but I just wish people would be at least somewhat respectful to one another without resorting to guilt-tripping someone into thinking they are doing as much as KILLING their snakes. When a simple question like "how long does it take for scale rot to manifest itself" is asked, no one asks you to start spouting opinions about cohabbing, ESPECIALLY if the OP already asked you to stop it and stay on topic. I know many of you bash Carpe Serpentis for bringing up the hybrid topic when it's not related to the original post, but the exact same thing is happening here... I'm half waiting for the "show pics of your collection then!" -.-

Well, for starters, both dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousands of years and thousands of generations. Snakes, notsomuch. Dogs and cats have adapted to being pets, snakes notsomuch.......

As far as "showing respect" for someone I believe is putting their animals health and lives at risk due to their own selfishness....someone I consider cruel...sorry but it will be a cold day in Hades.....

This health issue was likely caused by her poor husbandry and even if it wasn't, I am sure her future health issues will be.

Edited to add, you have a large number of people telling you that what you are doing is hurting your snakes. People who have kept snakes much longer than you have. And instead of listening, you choose to believe that what you are doing is fine and dandy. I guess EVERYONE here is wrong, and you are right? One person here (not me) likened your arguments to co hab to people who fight and kill dogs. Doesn't that mean anything?
 
I also feel the cohabbing issue IS relevant to the question, as stress can cause a lowered or weakened immune system, which can contribute to scale rot manifesting faster or more severe than is usually seen.

This is also what it appears to me. It's breeding season and it *sounds* like they are having territorial issues; I see males go through this every Spring. having two males in a tank at this time of year would definitely cause fighting and undue stress. I think this is common sense as far as most breeders would see it, just through years of observation.

I've had snakes knock over their water bowls and sit in wet aspen/water for a few days until i've noticed and never has scale rot been an issue. That tells me the snake under question has a larger than average stress level.
 
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