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How pure must a corn be to be truely pure?
- Thread starter antsterr
- Start date
beautifullywild77
Go Penguins!!!
:sobstory: .
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
But can you prove he isn't? Thats the beauty of that question. You can't prove god exists, doesn't exist, or is not in fact an alien anymore than you can prove that an ultra did not have hybrid origins other than the testimony of those that state they bred ratsnakes with corns. When something is not provable, you may assume either way that it is what one wishes to believe it is regardless of testimony either way by those creators or authors. As so many are fond of saying, pictures... or it didn't happen. That is exactly my point. Something is looked at as pure or impure based not on what the creator may admit in the corn snake world, but rather on the $$$ and what makes more sense $$$ wise. To admit that someone may have told the truth that they bred ratsnakes to corns and that at least some snakes with ultra in their lineage may have ratsnake in them is one way of going about it. Or, one can deny their statements and say they were merely angry at the corn snake world and made that statement in an attempt to hurt others... sad, but I could believe it with the proper motive $$$. One could argue that it is a conspiracy and that both ians and the ratnsnake foundation are both in on the conspiracy as well. Bottom line, without accurate records every corn snake is suspect that does not have a recorded pedigree.... never mind what may or may not have happened in the woods. Remember, what happens in nature, stays in nature....
dave partington
Crazy Dave
Presumption that money is what motivates all persons. Nice one, Forest. I'm a hefty 5 figures in the hole so far. May I lend you my walking shoes?
BloodyBaroness
Captain Titsworth
Yeah, assume something like that is pretty far fetched and shows just how narrow minded the assumer is.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
"With thanks to Don Soderberg at South Mountain Reptiles for allowing us to use this information from his website.
The founder (discoverer) of the Ultra mutation states that he originally paired a grey rat snake with a corn snake, in the discovery of this mutation. By the time most of us were made aware of the HYBRID origins of Ultra types (originally named Ultra Hypos), we had already bred it into many other corn snake mutations. It was therefore collectively decided that in so much as it would be virtually impossible to track down (and eliminate) each and every snake containing the Ultra gene (surely thousands of individuals in the collections of hundreds of breeders and keepers), the mutation would be treated like other pure corns. In so much as it generally did not alter the corn snake pattern, some breeders could be unaware they had it, while some could avoid mentioning it, if they did know. Those of you out there who are boycotting HYBRID corns are advised to avoid acquisition of suspicious-looking corns with the word ULTRA in the morph description. Likewise, purists who admirably endeavour to promote only the genetically purest of corns, are urged to question corns that have suspiciously abnormal features that are historically regarded as hybrid markers. Not that all such markers are proof of alien origins. Especially because of the difficulty and expense of formulating a DNA base line for all North American colubrid snake species, and in the absence of expensive DNA testing to identify authenticity of pure corns, without obvious visual and/or genetic distinctions, identification of legitimately pure (or impure) corns is difficult at this time, if not completely impossible."
http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/ultra.php
So, were looking at a lot of collections being affected... and as there is a lot of controversy concerning hybrids.... this would indeed turn into $$$ figures if purists or those wanting pure corn snakes were not able to sell their corn snakes.... so it was agreed that it was okay to ignore and treat them like other corn snakes. See above paragraph and below. So, not an assumption concerning $$$ with the known controversy surrounding hybrids.
"History: There is alot of contraversity surrounding the Ultra hypo on whether it is a pure cornsnake or a hybrid Cornsnake crossed with a Grey Ratsnake, Pantherophis obsoletus spiloides. The original snake that started this line was wild caught in Hillsborough County, Tampa, Florida; by whom no one is sure but this animal came into the possesion of Mike Falcon in the early 90's. He described the snake as having unusual colouration, with very little black and was very yellow. Mike Falcon has said that he bred the original 'Ultra' Corn to both Normal Corns and to a Snow x Grey/Corn cross. It would then appear that there are Ultra's out there that are of hybrid origin and those that are pure. A long debate on this, and one that tries to unravel both the history and inheritance of this cultivar can be found on Cornsnakes.com. The Ultra history is very patchy and probably will never be known for sure. ''
http://www.ratsnakefoundation.org/i...des/cornsnake-morph-guide/333-ultra-cornsnake
My intent is not to rehash this ultra debate, but rather to look at the potential reasons why we might wish to turn a blind cheek towards some questionably pure corns/hybrids and to thus consider them pure as this is the true nature of this thread. What do we consider pure? I contend that purity is a subjective standard in at least some cases of questionable corn snakes depending of course on many factors to include how might that snakes questionable genetics influence other collections, breeders, $$$, etc. Just my thoughts on the matter, but its one reason why I do like the biblical kinds versus the more scientific species although both are admittedly not objectively pure in their definitions as both are subjective creations of man cataloging specimens based on many similarities. With the kind definition, hybrids are actually a work towards the original purity or kind of that animal. So, perhaps one can look at fertile hybrids as being more pure in kind than a species would be that is so far removed evolutionarily speaking from its original kind?
The founder (discoverer) of the Ultra mutation states that he originally paired a grey rat snake with a corn snake, in the discovery of this mutation. By the time most of us were made aware of the HYBRID origins of Ultra types (originally named Ultra Hypos), we had already bred it into many other corn snake mutations. It was therefore collectively decided that in so much as it would be virtually impossible to track down (and eliminate) each and every snake containing the Ultra gene (surely thousands of individuals in the collections of hundreds of breeders and keepers), the mutation would be treated like other pure corns. In so much as it generally did not alter the corn snake pattern, some breeders could be unaware they had it, while some could avoid mentioning it, if they did know. Those of you out there who are boycotting HYBRID corns are advised to avoid acquisition of suspicious-looking corns with the word ULTRA in the morph description. Likewise, purists who admirably endeavour to promote only the genetically purest of corns, are urged to question corns that have suspiciously abnormal features that are historically regarded as hybrid markers. Not that all such markers are proof of alien origins. Especially because of the difficulty and expense of formulating a DNA base line for all North American colubrid snake species, and in the absence of expensive DNA testing to identify authenticity of pure corns, without obvious visual and/or genetic distinctions, identification of legitimately pure (or impure) corns is difficult at this time, if not completely impossible."
http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/ultra.php
So, were looking at a lot of collections being affected... and as there is a lot of controversy concerning hybrids.... this would indeed turn into $$$ figures if purists or those wanting pure corn snakes were not able to sell their corn snakes.... so it was agreed that it was okay to ignore and treat them like other corn snakes. See above paragraph and below. So, not an assumption concerning $$$ with the known controversy surrounding hybrids.
"History: There is alot of contraversity surrounding the Ultra hypo on whether it is a pure cornsnake or a hybrid Cornsnake crossed with a Grey Ratsnake, Pantherophis obsoletus spiloides. The original snake that started this line was wild caught in Hillsborough County, Tampa, Florida; by whom no one is sure but this animal came into the possesion of Mike Falcon in the early 90's. He described the snake as having unusual colouration, with very little black and was very yellow. Mike Falcon has said that he bred the original 'Ultra' Corn to both Normal Corns and to a Snow x Grey/Corn cross. It would then appear that there are Ultra's out there that are of hybrid origin and those that are pure. A long debate on this, and one that tries to unravel both the history and inheritance of this cultivar can be found on Cornsnakes.com. The Ultra history is very patchy and probably will never be known for sure. ''
http://www.ratsnakefoundation.org/i...des/cornsnake-morph-guide/333-ultra-cornsnake
My intent is not to rehash this ultra debate, but rather to look at the potential reasons why we might wish to turn a blind cheek towards some questionably pure corns/hybrids and to thus consider them pure as this is the true nature of this thread. What do we consider pure? I contend that purity is a subjective standard in at least some cases of questionable corn snakes depending of course on many factors to include how might that snakes questionable genetics influence other collections, breeders, $$$, etc. Just my thoughts on the matter, but its one reason why I do like the biblical kinds versus the more scientific species although both are admittedly not objectively pure in their definitions as both are subjective creations of man cataloging specimens based on many similarities. With the kind definition, hybrids are actually a work towards the original purity or kind of that animal. So, perhaps one can look at fertile hybrids as being more pure in kind than a species would be that is so far removed evolutionarily speaking from its original kind?
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
uke02:
Far from it, my assumptions are based on logical conclusions of the evidence presented. Hybrids are a source of controversy and contention. Fact. If Ultra is indeed a hybrid or at least many ultra's were indeed hybrid then that source of controversy could indeed affect ones sales to those that wanted pure species specimens. Given that the founding creator/discover admits that he bred ratsnakes into the ultra line at the very least gives us reason to believe that at least some ultra snakes are of hybrid origin.
I'm very open minded. I admit that there are things that are unknown. I admit that while any god may seem like a pretty far fetched assumption given that their is no evidence for any god... much less any one cultures god being real over another, I also have to admit that one can not rule out the possibility of gods either. I'm very open minded.
beautifullywild77
Go Penguins!!!
You know, Ian changed his website after Don changed his site. Don is waving on the side of caution, in my opinion. I do not know the guy personally as some others on here do. Again, use that little search thingy and view the ultra threads. We just don't know if they are truly hybrid or not and by now it would be like a drop of milk in the ocean when it comes to ultras because they have been bred back to corns for generations.
Screaming hybrid, hybrid, hybrid in every thread (included for sale threads) isn't going to change many peoples minds. To be quite honest, most of us really don't have that much of an issue with hybrids. However, because you seem to turn every single thread into a hybrid debate, we engage you and debate. Although, I will admit most of us are growing tired of it and many refuse to even engage you anymore. Eventually, we will all just disregard your hybrid ranting all together!
Screaming hybrid, hybrid, hybrid in every thread (included for sale threads) isn't going to change many peoples minds. To be quite honest, most of us really don't have that much of an issue with hybrids. However, because you seem to turn every single thread into a hybrid debate, we engage you and debate. Although, I will admit most of us are growing tired of it and many refuse to even engage you anymore. Eventually, we will all just disregard your hybrid ranting all together!
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
rich333
They Are Coming!!!
Using the bible as a guide:
God created the heavens & the earth
God created man.
In those two statements is all the proof anyone should ever need!
In the first example: God, as written in the biblical text, is not of this earth. He created it so that he could place his science project upon it and watch it. And by the very definition of the word... Makes God an alien.
Then God created man in his image.... Not a carbon copy... But something that looked similar.
I know of no human who.... Starting from the base elements... Can create man.
Alien.
Now, whether the bible and all religion, is just a bunch of hogwash used to control the poor, by giving them something to believe in... Whether that's true or not has yet to be seen.
But for some odd reason.... It's much easier for people to believe in an all knowing being that loves us and wants us to be good... As opposed to... Believing we were created to be a slave race for our alien creators.
Go figure.
dave partington
Crazy Dave
And yet, Ultra had been around for over 10 years before this "ultra being of hybrid origin" information was overheard at an expo for the first time ever. Which is a long time to keep a secret. And for anyone who has never slept for 4 days to get ready to vend tables at an expo, spend 20 hours driving in, setting up, eating greasy grits and sausages, keeping a happy face while their offerings are jiggled picked up plunked down photographed and shoplifted, is it unreasonable to allow benefit of the doubt concerning the latent history?
I Wasn't There.
Dig a little deeper.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
If it is written, then surely it must be so.
The problem arises when one discovers that there are many varied creation myths/religions and they do not all agree with one another. Which one is true? Which story is true... the same can be said for many debates on whether this or that snake is pure or not or had hybrid origins. In the end, what is pure or hybrid is often times conjecture even when the offending parties admit what they have done... as it is assumed that perhaps they did so out of anger or some other base emotion. In olden times when we didn't understand why there was lightning... we would say it was Thor, Zeus, Wakinyan, etc. Sure, there are some who would still claim so and who are we to argue with them?
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Now this statement I like. But, one must never forget to also lay a little blame on Lilith as well.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
There is always room for doubt where there is not sufficient proof.
beautifullywild77
Go Penguins!!!
:toiletgra ,.
BloodyBaroness
Captain Titsworth
Then why do you post with a such narrow view of the world? You are determined to pigeon hole and re-route everything to hybrids, Nephilim, some dog analogy, god/goddess myths or God. Every thread you participate in will have those things spouted off before you are done, guaranteed.
You are one trick pony, who might be interesting to debate with, if you did not constantly go in a very predictable circle. Get some new tricks.
dave partington
Crazy Dave
The proof is positively in the post pairing pudding. All you'd need is a syringe. Hybrid carpe pythons are smokin