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How pure must a corn be to be truely pure?

BloodyBaroness said:
Then why do you post with a such narrow view of the world? You are determined to pigeon hole and re-route everything to hybrids, Nephilim, some dog analogy, god/goddess myths or God. Every thread you participate in will have those things spouted off before you are done, guaranteed.

You are one trick pony, who might be interesting to debate with, if you did not constantly go in a very predictable circle. Get some new tricks.
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Read the topic of this thread...How pure must a corn be to be truly pure.... For me, the ultimate in purity is a hybrid. As a hybrid is working back towards the original kind as referenced earlier. A species on the other hand has simply evolved too far away from the original kind to be considered pure any longer. That is one argument I've made by placing my outlook into a creationist style argument using baraminology as my argument.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
There is always room for doubt where there is not sufficient proof.
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However, where there is an admission of guilt, I'd also say there was reason enough to believe that there was a possibility of truth in that statement as well. Therefore, what are we left with? If we looked at this in the same manner as we do criminals who admit they have killed someone 10 years later after someone else has been in jail.... we'll you get the picture. Sure, there is always room for doubt in the same manner that this reality may simply be a construct of the matrix that we are all living in.
 
BloodyBaroness said:
LOL!

Personally, I'm cosmically okay with intergrades, as they can occur in nature. I am not cosmically okay with hybrids that are forced by humans.



I always do. :cheers: That reminds me I need to get a powerball ticket for tonight.
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BloodyBaroness said:
You type a lot of words without really saying a thing don't you?

I'm out with Dave on this one. Adios Forest.
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Really? Attack the argument or leave it alone. Attacking via name calling does little for your position.

If a snake can breed with another snake and produce fertile offspring then they were designed to do just that and who am I to question intelligent design by an omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing) being?

QUOTE=BloodyBaroness;1571285]LOL!

Personally, I'm cosmically okay with intergrades, as they can occur in nature. I am not cosmically okay with hybrids that are forced by humans.



I always do. :cheers: That reminds me I need to get a powerball ticket for tonight.[/QUOTE]

Okay, you have me confused with your cosmically okay with intergrades as they can occur in nature. I'm almost ready to ask, how does one consult with the cosmos to know what is okay and what is not. I'd rather leave that one alone though and tackle your next statement... or rather the end of it as it is clearer, but still unclear a bit. You don't like hybrids being forced by man... man does tend to manipulate matings that would never happen in nature. This is how we have turkeys that can not physically mate even if given the chance. This is also how we have a plethora of corn snakes in morph combinations like we do... we select for them. We resort to tactics to get them to mate with corns they would have no chance of mating with in the wild. But lets digress for a little bit. Force.... if one merely pairs a corn snake with a king snake after first pairing that corn with another corn... is that forcing the corn snake to breed with that king snake? If that is all that was done... would you be okay with it? Or would you still consider that being forced? And if you would still consider that to be forced, would you consider that a female that got her date all hot and bothered and then decided to leave that mate before coitus occured to be forcing her mate to breed with another female room mate who just happened to come into the room? What if she invited that female into the room? Would that be forcing the male into having relations with that female? Would you consider swapping mates with corns to corns as forcing and thereby unnatural or cosmically not right?
 
airenlow said:
Yet you'll debate hybrids til the bitter end...
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That would be the understatement of the century if you ask me. More like FAR, FAAR!!, FAAAAAAR!!!! beyond the bitter end. :sidestep:

This is straight jacket and padded room nonsense here.......:roflmao:
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
"History: There is alot of contraversity surrounding the Ultra hypo on whether it is a pure cornsnake or a hybrid Cornsnake crossed with a Grey Ratsnake, Pantherophis obsoletus spiloides. The original snake that started this line was wild caught in Hillsborough County, Tampa, Florida; by whom no one is sure but this animal came into the possesion of Mike Falcon in the early 90's. He described the snake as having unusual colouration, with very little black and was very yellow. Mike Falcon has said that he bred the original 'Ultra' Corn to both Normal Corns and to a Snow x Grey/Corn cross. It would then appear that there are Ultra's out there that are of hybrid origin and those that are pure. A long debate on this, and one that tries to unravel both the history and inheritance of this cultivar can be found on Cornsnakes.com. The Ultra history is very patchy and probably will never be known for sure. ''
http://www.ratsnakefoundation.org/i...des/cornsnake-morph-guide/333-ultra-cornsnake

My intent is not to rehash this ultra debate, but rather to look at the potential reasons why we might wish to turn a blind cheek towards some questionably pure corns/hybrids and to thus consider them pure as this is the true nature of this thread. What do we consider pure? I contend that purity is a subjective standard in at least some cases of questionable corn snakes depending of course on many factors to include how might that snakes questionable genetics influence other collections, breeders, $$$, etc. Just my thoughts on the matter, but its one reason why I do like the biblical kinds versus the more scientific species although both are admittedly not objectively pure in their definitions as both are subjective creations of man cataloging specimens based on many similarities. With the kind definition, hybrids are actually a work towards the original purity or kind of that animal. So, perhaps one can look at fertile hybrids as being more pure in kind than a species would be that is so far removed evolutionarily speaking from its original kind?
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Just for the record here, the "Ultra Hypos" I bought came from Mike Falcon, who swore up and down to me every time I asked him that they were PURE corns. And when I purchased the original GoldDust corn that Mike Shiver was calling "Amber" (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11431) he also swore up and down that they were pure corn snakes.

I'm not sure when and why the stories might have changed at a later date, but if a story changes midstream, then you simply have to conclude for your own self that if lies have been told, WHICH of the statements made are actually untruthful. And, of course, WHY, if an original claim has been recanted, why was it recanted at all? Are there motives at work here?

I guess what it boils down to is that there is nothing really wrong with hybrids. It's people who are at the root of the problem because of the potential dishonesty that could cause people to make their own claims that they BELIEVE are true, and in so doing work with animals that had the truth been presented, would have made different choices.

So I have no claims to make as to who has told what truths, if any. All I can say is that in the fair number of years that I worked with Ultra Hypos and GoldDusts, I never once got any hint of any clues that such animals were anything than what they were claimed to me to be. That doesn't mean that I don't believe anyone would lie to me. Quite the reverse, actually. It means that I have reason to doubt EVERYTHING anyone said to me, and choose to believe whatever evidence has been apparent to me. Which may or may not have anything at all to do with reality. Lord knows I have gotten animals that I later determined to have had their ancestry obscured with lies. And I dumped them QUICKLY after making such a determination, letting the recipients know my thoughts about such animals.

All we can do is try to do the best we can with the information we are able to get, I suppose. And take everything someone who is trying to get your credit card number for payment says to you with a BIG grain of salt.
 
Rich Z said:
Just for the record here, the "Ultra Hypos" I bought came from Mike Falcon, who swore up and down to me every time I asked him that they were PURE corns. And when I purchased the original GoldDust corn that Mike Shiver was calling "Amber" (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11431) he also swore up and down that they were pure corn snakes.

I'm not sure when and why the stories might have changed at a later date, but if a story changes midstream, then you simply have to conclude for your own self that if lies have been told, WHICH of the statements made are actually untruthful. And, of course, WHY, if an original claim has been recanted, why was it recanted at all? Are there motives at work here?

I guess what it boils down to is that there is nothing really wrong with hybrids. It's people who are at the root of the problem because of the potential dishonesty that could cause people to make their own claims that they BELIEVE are true, and in so doing work with animals that had the truth been presented, would have made different choices.

So I have no claims to make as to who has told what truths, if any. All I can say is that in the fair number of years that I worked with Ultra Hypos and GoldDusts, I never once got any hint of any clues that such animals were anything than what they were claimed to me to be. That doesn't mean that I don't believe anyone would lie to me. Quite the reverse, actually. It means that I have reason to doubt EVERYTHING anyone said to me, and choose to believe whatever evidence has been apparent to me. Which may or may not have anything at all to do with reality. Lord knows I have gotten animals that I later determined to have had their ancestry obscured with lies. And I dumped them QUICKLY after making such a determination, letting the recipients know my thoughts about such animals.

All we can do is try to do the best we can with the information we are able to get, I suppose. And take everything someone who is trying to get your credit card number for payment says to you with a BIG grain of salt.
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Well said.
 
I have about 3 % neanderthal genes.
So, I have 1/32 of my genes from neanderthals.

That is as much neanderthal genes as if there were one single neanderthal hybrid breeding 6 generations ago.

I hope G-d still love me, as I am, as a hybrid.
 
NiklasTyreso said:
I have about 3 % neanderthal genes.
So, I have 1/32 of my genes from neanderthals.

That is as much neanderthal genes as if there were one single neanderthal hybrid breeding 6 generations ago.

I hope G-d still love me, as I am, as a hybrid.
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Valid point. Looks like you may have lost your purity.
 
When does a candycane bred from a Miami phase x (creamsicle aka hybrid) gain pure status? Agreed, perhaps not all candycanes have creamsicle in their lineage… but then that also begs the question… where did all the lines of candycanes with creamsicle in their lineage go?

How does this relate...?
If not all lines of candycanes can be tracked back to their wild counterparts then this leaves us wondering whether the line of candycanes one is working with is pure or hybrid. Do we ignore the possibility that a particular line of morphs could be of hybrid origin however small that chance might be? Is purity something that can only reasonably be achieved with wild caught specimens?
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
When does a candycane bred from a Miami phase x (creamsicle aka hybrid) gain pure status? Agreed, perhaps not all candycanes have creamsicle in their lineage… but then that also begs the question… where did all the lines of candycanes with creamsicle in their lineage go?

How does this relate...?
If not all lines of candycanes can be tracked back to their wild counterparts then this leaves us wondering whether the line of candycanes one is working with is pure or hybrid. Do we ignore the possibility that a particular line of morphs could be of hybrid origin however small that chance might be? Is purity something that can only reasonably be achieved with wild caught specimens?
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The Candycanes I produced were as pure as they can be. Mine came from my original Miami phase stock that I introduced amelanism into to try to get that red on white effect. Of course, once they left my hands, all bets are off.
 
DragonsDenSerpents said:
Carpe, do you keep bumping these threads to troll or just because you want attention? It can't possibly be anything else at this point.
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You question is a bit loaded don't you think? I mean, I could ask... Are you trying to lessen the value of the topic or do you just not have any useful information of your own to add? Or is it that you want to make it seem like there is not a valid point here? It can't possible be anything else at this point.

Assumptions....
 
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