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CornSnake in the wild.... :)

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Rich Z said:
Sorry, I just flatly disagree with you. You are asking me to prove a negative result in that you want me to PROVE that releasing corns will NOT have any negative effect on captive populations.
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I know you mean to say wild populations here and yes for you to partake in this action you should have to prove that no harm can come from your actions. You should have to prove that all the animals in your collection originated from either wild stock or collections with only north american species and all the animals in those collections are also from the same. If at any time a animal from your collection has been in a building that housed exotics then none of your animals should ever be released without a full vet exam based on the protocols provided here. Also none of the animals should have ever been to a snake show and returned to your facility nor has anybody that you ever bought animals from ever had crypto before or after your purchase. All animals that you plan to release should be isolated from the rest of your collection particularly animals going to shows.

The part you keep ignoring in all this is that we don't know anything when it comes to reptile diseases but the few diseases we have been able to study thus far have been pretty bad. If a colubrid version of IBD got out it could be devistating as well as crypto getting out. One other thing you are ignoring is that by you not only doing this but also bragging about it on this site and Fauna in the past you influance others. So you can also be partly responsible for some newbie dumping his corns after he brings them to the vet because they are all regurging and the vet tells him it is going to cost hundreds to just identify the cause...


I am asking you to prove a positive result whereby there is any documented cases of released captive corn snakes (or for that matter any snake released within it's natural range) causing harm to the native population. And in my opinion, the burden is on YOU to prove that the risk exists.
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No scientist cares to study the pathogens in wild populations of corns because they won't get their grants approved to study them. No one is going to pay for someone to study a non endangered, in fact ultra common, snake. I sit on a grant committee and I would toss out a grant to study corns to instead fund one on something in peril. You are also not going to find any studies on diseases in repatriation attempts because those few attempts that have been made have followed strict protocols to prevent just such an occurance. Even with the protocols in place the studies I have read have gone to great lengths to make sure, as best they could, that no other snakes of that species were in the area of release just incase there was something that they did not catch in the way of a disease that would in turn kill the last remaining wild populations of an endangered snake. Meanwhile you just toss out babies that won't feed or have kinks (the genetic implications of this goes right over your head apparently)


Which, thus far, you have not, and in my opinion, cannot. You are stating that if any possibility of any risk exists, then a person should do nothing at all in face of that risk taking place. I am stating that without substantial proof that there has already been any harm, then the burden of proof pretty much sides with my argument that there has not been any actual harm, IS not harm being done, and quite probably will BE no harm in the future. And in fact there are provable benefits to the animals being released that face certain death if that miniscule threat (kind of on the order of being hit by a meteor) were
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Rich the genetics you have released will affect the native genetics for the REAL corn snakes that are in your area. You are introducing genes from other sub species and of multiple genetic mutations en mass. THAT IS HARM!!! So is this debate over???

Jason
 
Kenneth Noisewater said:
I know tahat anerys can occur in the wild. But considering hurricane 'mishaps", who can be sure of anything they catch in the wild ?
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The anerys pre-date the hurricane Andrew "mishaps" and the herping industry. That said, just because a morph occurs in the wild it does not give you the right to release other morphs too.

Someone else said something about hurricane preparedness and I completely agree. It is the keepers responsibility to care for their collection. You should have enough bags for your entire collection if you live down there. I will admit that I did not but I also grew up going to "hurricane parties" because they were all weak storms that hit my area previously. After going through one real hurricane I changed my tune.

Jason
 
Kenneth Noisewater said:
Thanks Buzzard. That's "Burm", lboz.
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Cool it, Kenneth Noisemaker. Lori knows what a BURM is. No need to jab at a typo/blonde moment. Even Wade has had 'em.



Crotalus, I'd like for you to answer my original questions to you in this thread. Point by point, not the flyover "releasing any snake is wrong." I asked specific questions, such as collecting, measuring, and releasing. Or putting them in the same bag, or taking them back to camp, and deciding some weren't keepers. There exists a gray area here for anyone, no matter how extreme your beliefs are; unless you are a PeTA member (in which case I suppose you wouldn't be here or know what Crotalus are).

What are your thoughts on keeping captive reptiles? Be honest. Do you look down in some way on those of us who enjoy keeping and breeding them? We ALL produce things we don't personally want, and these are always sold, the less desired ones often on the cheap. I'd suspect their odds aren't much worse than in the wild than when wholesaled. You intimate that besides the risk of pathogens, it is still wrong. Besides hybridization fears (which has been discussed more annoyingly than this), why? I'll hang up and listen.
 
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elrojo said:
Crotalus, I'd like for you to answer my original questions to you in this thread. Point by point, not the flyover "releasing any snake is wrong." I asked specific questions, such as collecting, measuring, and releasing. Or putting them in the same bag, or taking them back to camp, and deciding some weren't keepers. There exists a gray area here for anyone, no matter how extreme your beliefs are; unless you are a PeTA member (in which case I suppose you wouldn't be here or know what Crotalus are).
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I know who Crotalus is and I know I am not him but let me answer in a way less philisophical than he will. :roflmao: Snakes are much more hardy than amphibians but now after the Chytrid outbreak has gone full force and descimated the amphibian world the researchers of all people are thinking that they need to sterilize between research areas NOW. :bang: So is it an issue with snakes?? It has not shown itself to be YET. The idea of if snakes should be held overnight for pics can start some fights in itself. Same bag, it is not a great idea. Same bag as you use for captive snakes, I don't think so personally. It really comes down to how anal you want to be and how much you think captive herps are a threat. The sad thing is eventually we will find out that captives are a huge threat when some virus mutates without us realizing it until it is too late. Like I mentioned earlier, the Florida king snake has seen a huge population decline (60-80%) and no one knows why. Fire ants are blamed but there are tons of fire ants in their strong hold of the south Florida cane fields. Snakes are solitary animals and we keep them in virtual cities and with cities comes disease. Things that would never last in the wild proliferate in captivity.



What are your thoughts on keeping captive reptiles? Be honest. Do you look down in some way on those of us who enjoy keeping and breeding them? We ALL produce things we don't personally want, and these are always sold, the less desired ones often on the cheap. I'd suspect their odds aren't much worse than in the wild than when wholesaled. You intimate that besides the risk of pathogens, it is still wrong. Besides hybridization fears (which has been discussed more annoyingly than this), why? I'll hang up and listen.
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I personally keep a ton of snakes from all areas of the world and all dollar amounts. I personally have evolved from an idiot jobber who didn't know any better and I would buy and sell wholesale and support the importers. Now I have a whole list of people that I will never buy from even if they are the only ones with my sought after animal. One such person is a mini celebrity on Fauna and he gets in the one snake I really want now but I will never buy from him because of the the WC animals he sells. Pretty much anyone who will sell a red belly swamp snake or a brahmny blind snake will never get my money for any animal ever. As I have stated already I feel it is immoral to let snakes go and I see no reason not to wholesale them or sell them as feeders if there are issues. I have always kept king snakes and I have fed off the unhealthy, kinked, or genetic mutts that I could/would not sell.

Jason
 
"I hunted the Okeetee club for quite a while. If I caught an average (for the area) corn snake, bagged it, and after looking it over determined it was a male and released it within a couple of miles, is there a danger there? What if I put several in the same bag prior? What if I drove as close to the collection spot possible to release? All are real scenarios."

There are two distinctions to make here when asking these questions: one is whether or not you're asking me to assess the actual damage that may have resulted and the other is whether or not you are ethically wrong for doing these things. I can't comment on the first because I have no idea if its harmful to release a corn a few miles away from where you captured it. I wouldn't think any real harm would come to the snake or the population unless it is somehow fragmented enough to prevent the dispersal of pathogens etc. thus far. I wouldn't necessarily call it irresponsible behavior without something to indicate a high enough degree of risk to make it so.

"I live a full state away from the Okeetee club, and have intentionally turned more than a few poor feeders and extra males loose that I produced. I live in corn snake country, but corns are scarce (comparatively), and the prettiest ones here are much more drab. No man-made recessive genes have ever existed in a single one of these animals. So I know without question when I have seen one of my animals working in the yard, hunting, or DOR. What realistic problems do you see with this: an animal from South Carolina progeny being released in North Carolina?"

The same exact problem that I've listed for Rich- the possible spread of disease. It is a risk and therefore to take it ought to require that less risky options have been exhausted. Perhaps you shouldn't have collected the animals to begin with if you didn't have the proper means of caring for them perminantly.

"Extrapolate from that scenario to Rich's, if you will. I'm not here to gang up on you. Just interested on your stances."

I understand, you've been reasonable and fair as far as I can tell. I don't see much difference between yours and Rich's scenerios- both involve the irresponsible release of corn snakes into the wild. Just because Rich's snakes were born in captivity and yours were w/c doesn't mean that yours are immune to this scrutiny. Perhaps there's even a greater risk in your situation (mixing Carolina localities).

I wouldn't criticize your situation quite to the degree that I have Rich's, though. Partially because you haven't flaunted it publically to the same extent but also because you probably didn't release the same number of individuals. Yet another slight difference is that Rich's interests were proffit-motivated and commercial and as a bi-product of conducting business it sounds like he has done this quite a bit.
 
"What are your thoughts on keeping captive reptiles? Be honest. Do you look down in some way on those of us who enjoy keeping and breeding them?"

No way, I love herpetoculture. I've been keeping various herps since childhood. I've kept Crotalus sp., Lampropeltis sp., Charina sp., Agkistrodon contortrix and several other species of herp that I have a minor interest in. I've participated in many herpetological societies including ones that are oriented toward herpetoculture. Many of my mentors and friends are pioneers in the field of keeping so I've been "brought up" in the world of herp keeping.

"We ALL produce things we don't personally want, and these are always sold, the less desired ones often on the cheap. I'd suspect their odds aren't much worse than in the wild than when wholesaled. You intimate that besides the risk of pathogens, it is still wrong. Besides hybridization fears (which has been discussed more annoyingly than this), why? I'll hang up and listen."

I don't think that it's wrong absent of any risk. It's the risk that makes it irresponsible to release these critters, not the behavior itself. It's not like murder or stealing for instance, it's the resulting problems that make it an unsavory thing to do. I understand that a side effect of breeding snakes is excess progeny, but why not give them away, or give them to teaching collections, or something else that doesn't risk anything?
 
Jason_Hood said:
Rich the genetics you have released will affect the native genetics for the REAL corn snakes that are in your area. You are introducing genes from other sub species and of multiple genetic mutations en mass. THAT IS HARM!!! So is this debate over???

Jason
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Oh really? What other subspecies? And those REAL corn snakes in my area differ from those I had in captivity how? You mean all these years I have been working with UNREAL corn snakes? And you know this for a fact without even personally inspecting them? :rofl: Do you even have an inkling of how silly your arguments sound?

Do you have proof of this so called "harm"? So all genetic mutations are harmful in your mind? :rolleyes: We all know what this is REALLY about, now don't we fellas? You don't happen to have a tattoo on your bicep saying "KILL THE MUTANTS!" now do you? :roflmao:

This debate has BEEN over when you guys began to simply just repeat yourself over and over, since you really can't provide any facts at all to support your opinionated and unsubstantiated claims. I'm actually enjoying watching the hand wringing and moaning at this point. Bad Rich, BAD! Rich must be bad because he doesn't believe as we do, and we are obviously GOOD, so he MUST be BAD. :roflmao:

Seriously, you guys should get a lobbying position with PETA or the Humane Society. You would fit right in...... They use the same kinds of arguments and facts be damned....
 
Rich, with all respect, your position isn't supported by fact either, You are acting on your belief that releasing these animals will cause no harm to the local ratsnake and corn populations. You have no proof that your actions won't cause harm.
Your released snakes will be competing for resources with the existing population.
Given that your releases of kinked snakes and poor feeders are most likely going to die anyway or end up predated, perhaps you are right. But can you not in any way see that there is the possibility of harm through your actions?
 
diamondlil said:
Rich, with all respect, your position isn't supported by fact either, You are acting on your belief that releasing these animals will cause no harm to the local ratsnake and corn populations. You have no proof that your actions won't cause harm.
Your released snakes will be competing for resources with the existing population.
Given that your releases of kinked snakes and poor feeders are most likely going to die anyway or end up predated, perhaps you are right. But can you not in any way see that there is the possibility of harm through your actions?
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Sorry, but I believe the absolute certainty that the snakes thrown into the freezer will die absolutely outweighs any remote, purely conjectural and unsubstantiated risk that releasing them will cause any harm. Government programs exist to headstart endangered species that are released into the wild. And the government also have programs in place to reintroduce populations of animals in historical ranges where those animals have been extirpated in the past. Heck, even the state of Florida is involved with a reintroduction program involving the panther. Lakes, ponds and other bodies of water are routinely restocked with fish raised in "captive" conditions. I have shown specifically that Florida law allows enforcing officers for FWCC to release native captive animals at the officer's discretion. And the fact that I have personally released corns in the early 80s up to the present within their native ranges with not even a hint of any damages done pretty much gives me all the proof I need about this issue. So yes, my position actually IS supported by observable and documented facts.

Anyone at all is welcome to disagree with me, but that will not change the actual facts nor the past. And without contrary FACTS, hand waving, the gnashing of teeth, and emotional outburst of pseudo-logic are just not going to change my opinion.

Sorry, but I never, and am not now, been impressed with the counter arguments, and am quite astonished that people who claim to enjoy and appreciate animals would be so quick to advocate the unnecessary euthanization of living creatures in their care with such a cavalier attitude.

And just to be clear, anyone who takes this conversation along the path of using it as an excuse to belittle me personally or otherwise be derogatory because of merely differing opinions will no longer be allowed to use this facility for that purpose. I hope this is clear to the parties it applies to.
 
Crotalus said:
Are you saying that hurricanes and natural disasters that result in property damages that result in captive animals escaping...are the sole purpose of the burmese python problem (sans the irresponsible release of captives into the everglades)?
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I don't think the writer said that. I think the writer said that this may have or did contribute to the problem, and it probably did. Somebody else already put the genetic information up so I won't reiterate it but I saw it too. Those data indicate the tested snakes were all originating from a very few parents. That suggests either someone dumped a whole bunch of snakes that were clutchmates or that they originated in only a few dumped/lost animals.

That does not say that other people haven't dumped burms that got too big to manage. I'm sure people did, and it's wrong.

Interesting that the discussion got stuck on the "prove a negative" thing. It's sort of philosophical, really. One side is saying "Prove you have done no harm and will do no harm" and the other side is saying "Prove I have done a harm or will do a harm". Kind of like the whole global warming discussion. The warmists say they have evidence of warming & that they can't prove it won't do harm so they say it will do harm. The antis say either there is no evidence of warming or that they won't worry about it without proof of subsequent harm.
 
wstphal said:
Interesting that the discussion got stuck on the "prove a negative" thing. It's sort of philosophical, really. One side is saying "Prove you have done no harm and will do no harm" and the other side is saying "Prove I have done a harm or will do a harm". Kind of like the whole global warming discussion. The warmists say they have evidence of warming & that they can't prove it won't do harm so they say it will do harm. The antis say either there is no evidence of warming or that they won't worry about it without proof of subsequent harm.
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The global warming controversy is a but more complex then that. One one side you have a camp stating that mankind's activities are CAUSING the global warming, and we must take our civilization back to pre industrial days concerning CO2 output (with attendant drastic changes in the quality of life for the most developed countries) in order to fix the damage. The other side is claiming that there is no real evidence at all that this isn't a natural cycle the earth goes through and to destroy civilization in order to try to save it is not warranted.

But yes there are similarities to be sure....
 
Rich Z said:
And the fact that I have personally released corns in the early 80s up to the present within their native ranges with not even a hint of any damages done pretty much gives me all the proof I need about this issue. So yes, my position actually IS supported by observable and documented facts.
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Thanks for the answer. I hadn't realised that you'd been releasing into the area for so long.
 
Rich Z said:
Oh really? What other subspecies? And those REAL corn snakes in my area differ from those I had in captivity how? You mean all these years I have been working with UNREAL corn snakes? And you know this for a fact without even personally inspecting them? :rofl: Do you even have an inkling of how silly your arguments sound?

Do you have proof of this so called "harm"? So all genetic mutations are harmful in your mind? :rolleyes: We all know what this is REALLY about, now don't we fellas? You don't happen to have a tattoo on your bicep saying "KILL THE MUTANTS!" now do you? :roflmao:
Real cornsnakes would be the ones that are the natural phenotype as opposed to the many mutations you have and have released. This is not the first time I have seen you bragging about doing this, this is just the first time I have bothered to call you out. I know that you are too egotistical to admit that your knowledge and experience is worth less than the hundreds of people in scientific circles that have taken in depth studies of this issue and voiced their opinons againt what you are doing. (Yes opinions, though educated ones back by science and research as opposed to yours based on that fact that you have done it and you didn't notice any harm thought no study has been done)

The mutations have arisen in captivity more than the wild and many recent ones and possibly some older ones are the result of crossing subspecific animals like Emory's into the corns. Is this true Rich?? Yes?? Well if you can admit to that then how hard is it really for you to understand the genetically speaking the animals that you are releasing bare little resemblance to the natural corns in your area? Can you be enough of a honest person to admit that? Also you have no idea or proof what lineage any of your animals have unless you personally collected them. You have no idea what anybody did to get the different mutations that you are using in your breedings. I had a probable F1 yellow rat X Corn a few years back and I showed it around and I believe you even commented on it in Orlando at the FIRE expo when I showed it to Kathy. I tried a breeding and got albinos, hypos, and some very odd "normals" that someone told me looked like some other mutation. I sold the animal to someone else and she continued to produce these weird crosses with wild gentics. One of the babies I sold to someone before I knew what was going on was bred to a corn and it turned out a wide array of babies all of which would easily pass for just corns.

As far as your "kill the mutants" arguement that is factless and ignorant based on the fact that I already listed off animals that I do breed. I have bred hundreds of corns though I got out of them back when striped snows were still the craziest thing anyone had thought of, I have had and still have a decent honduran collection full of mutants, and I have many other snakes. So no it is not that I am against mutants, it is that I am against irresponsible breeders letting their captive mutants go into wild populations... ie YOU :nyah:

I have met you many times when i lived in Florida and we have talked many times while my friend decided which snake to buy from you. I never bother to introduce myself by name because I never thought it mattered or you would care but many people know exactly who I am and I am sure there are many on here who have my mutants in thier collections. I know I am 100% correct in calling you out on this and I have no fear of losing any potential customers that may side with you because quite frankly I don't want anyone buying animals from me that they might release if times get tough.

Your "they will all die in the freezer but some will live in the wild" stance is exactly what got us in this legislative mess we are in, hurricanes be damned. You are trying to hide behind that fact that they are native to your area and that is a weak argument at best and I have showed you many things against any releases.

Your misquoting of animal restocking attempts is also weak because all besides the fish follow the above protocols I posted or something very similar. Reguardless of what protocol they do follow all involve extensive testing of the animals for disease. Last thing for now, using Florida FWC as an example is ridiculous, they have caused more harm to the natural order of things in Florida than any other F&W commision in the country. Many of their policies and practices have been fought by enviromental groups including the "restocking" of Panthers with mountain lions which are very different animals, not unlike great plains rats and corns they just happen to still be and now forever listed as the same species. Thanks to FWC the real Florida Panthers are all but extinct.

Jason
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"Sorry, but I never, and am not now, been impressed with the counter arguments, and am quite astonished that people who claim to enjoy and appreciate animals would be so quick to advocate the unnecessary euthanization of living creatures in their care with such a cavalier attitude."

First of all, if you include me in the group of people with a cavalier attitute then you need to go back and take another look. I've never been cavalier about euthanizing snakes.

"And just to be clear, anyone who takes this conversation along the path of using it as an excuse to belittle me personally or otherwise be derogatory because of merely differing opinions will no longer be allowed to use this facility for that purpose. I hope this is clear to the parties it applies to."

I believe that this is nothing but intimidation and what's mildly irritating is that it worked. Diamonlil disagreed with you, Rich, so you inflated your dewlap a little and then she says "Thanks for the answer. I hadn't realised that you'd been releasing into the area for so long", as if releasing MORE corns for a LONGER time substantiates your claims. Congratualtions Rich your intimidation tactic worked. That's a shame.

"The global warming controversy is a but more complex then that. One one side you have a camp stating that mankind's activities are CAUSING the global warming, and we must take our civilization back to pre industrial days concerning CO2 output (with attendant drastic changes in the quality of life for the most developed countries) in order to fix the damage. The other side is claiming that there is no real evidence at all that this isn't a natural cycle the earth goes through and to destroy civilization in order to try to save it is not warranted."

That's not a very good characterization of global warming for your information. In fact if you dig around SCIENCE a little, rather than global warming scare/conspiracy websites, you'd see that the industrial output of CO2 produces ridiculously less greenhouse gas than the factory farming industry puts out in the form of methane. One fact. There are many more. So given this fact, why aren't you shouting in the streets that our tasty ribeyes are in jeopardy rather than our luscious industry? Also, the pro-GW side doesn't claim that man constructed global warming with industry, rather that man is contributing to it.

"Interesting that the discussion got stuck on the "prove a negative" thing. It's sort of philosophical, really. One side is saying "Prove you have done no harm and will do no harm" and the other side is saying "Prove I have done a harm or will do a harm". Kind of like the whole global warming discussion. The warmists say they have evidence of warming & that they can't prove it won't do harm so they say it will do harm. The antis say either there is no evidence of warming or that they won't worry about it without proof of subsequent harm."

I almost agree with you. This is perfectly analogous to the situation surrounding global warming. The only thing that you said that was questionable is that both sides are asking the other to prove a negative. I'm not asking Rich to prove that what he does is harmless, I'm asking Rich to disprove the evidence that I've shown that demonstrates what he's doing to be harmlful. He did the controversial act, I found evidence to show that this act was harmful, now the onus is on him to show how both the cited evidence is wrong and how I am wrong.

So it is a good analogy- in the global warming "debate" you have a buncha credible evidence that leads to a conclusion, then you have the "rejection" of this evidence and the claim of conspiracy due to some other gain. Similarly in this situation you have the presentation of good evidence followed by Rich's denial due to his agenda followed by a "debate" and s "conspiracy" that all of the people who agree with me have something against Rich.
 
I gave these two jokers a one-month vay-cay. Don't blame Rich. He doesn't need me to tell him that he can reverse it if he wants to...
 
Roy Munson said:
I gave these two jokers a one-month vay-cay. Don't blame Rich. He doesn't need me to tell him that he can reverse it if he wants to...
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Darn... I was just wiping the rust off of my old debating skills that I've laid dormant the last several years. Now that I'm retired, I have time to enjoy this sort of thing again.

But maybe this will give those guys enough time to come up with some actual facts about this issue. :rolleyes:
 
For the record, I still disagree with Rich's actions, but I really don't think he's threatening me with banning for raising my objections in a mildly disgruntled fashion!
I'm simply recognising that nothing I say can alter the fact that he has been releasing corns for more than 20 yearson his property. I have no counter-argument strong enough to change his position.
The one issue I would raise is the implication that releasing non-feeders to give them a chance is kinder than euthanising them. I've euthanised non-feeders, as well as spending a huge emotional investment in force-feeding and rehabbing them. The decision to euthanise wasn't taken lightly, it was after the corns were losing weight and condition despite all my best efforts and I felt my responsabilty as their breeder was to end their decline rather than have them starve to death.
 
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