just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?

BloodyBaroness said:

If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to be here or to reply...

Maybe we share a certain opinion because it's a good one that is widely supported by the reptile keeping community. :shrugs: Ever thought about that?

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Or maybe the people who don't share your opinion are just afraid to post about that. I know I've asked people in my facebook group to reply here, but they hate the atmosphere here and don't feel like getting bashed for what they feel is a pointless discussion where neither side will back down.

Can't we just agree that BOTH points of view have a wide range of supporters and leave it at that? I'm sure everyone here does what they think is best for their snakes. No one would intentionally harm their snakes as they are all our beloved pets.

Isoldael, want to comment on my reply to you?

Isoldael said:

Or maybe the people who don't share your opinion are just afraid to post about that. I know I've asked people in my facebook group to reply here, but they hate the atmosphere here and don't feel like getting bashed for what they feel is a pointless discussion where neither side will back down.

Can't we just agree that BOTH points of view have a wide range of supporters and leave it at that? I'm sure everyone here does what they think is best for their snakes. No one would intentionally harm their snakes as they are all our beloved pets.

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Well, that's is their opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, right or wrong. If you don't like something, don't participate. Not everyone is going to like every site or community. You find somewhere that you do fit and that you do like.

Freedom of speech does not mean you get to say whatever you want without consequences. It simply means the people can't stop you from saying it. It also means OTHERS get to say what THEY think about your words.

The cohab argument will go on until the end of time. Both sides will probably never see eye to eye on it.

OK Isoldael, here:

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.e...uttatus/#F79D7720-C3A6-453D-85DA-9079AFC88DA3

Lots of scientific research for you to read.

NOT OPINION.

cornsnakes are solitary creatures. They DO NOT want to interact, in nature, except during breeding season. ESPECIALLY MALES.

Here's a quote:

When male corn snakes encounter each other, they may perform displays of dominance, especially during mating season. A male snake shows domination by a series of spastic movements and restricting the movement of the weaker male. (Ernst and Barbour, 1989)

It's NOT our opinion, it's what the snakes prefer.


OH look. another quote. from different research:

Corn snakes communicate in the same ways as most other species of snake. During the mating season, males give off pheromones that are detected by females. Communication is rare outside of mating season, as they are solitary animals. (Mattison, 2007)

THUS this is why we are so passionate about this in the reptile keeping industry.

WE love our pets. Most of us will try our best to make them happy (there are people who do exactly what Jim* outlined but that's definitely not the majority).
If you don't want to do this for your snake, so-be-it.
But stop defending it.

Many of us here live with these snakes in their backyard, and know and understand what is best for them.

Isoldael said:

You also can't blame me alone for keeping this thread alive - all my replies have been getting responses as well.

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Which you then respond to. Every time. Without answering the question asked, and asserting that advice given is "either pure opinion and not based on anything or simply untrue." Which is BS. I'm tapping out now, b/c I have more productive things to do today. I will leave with what I require from anyone that buys a snake from me: "Foremost, the snake must have a clean dry enclosure of its own with proper temperatures and fresh water." I like for the front and side of an enclosure to at least equal the length of the snake being kept, but I would compromise that over cohabbing.

Here, here Chip.

Heck, I'm still waiting for the answer to "how does cohabbing benefit the SNAKE?"

We have provided more than enough proof it does not.

If I can see some solid proof from the cohabbers, that outline the benefits to the animal, maybe people will start to change their opinions. So far, that proof never surfaces in any cohab thread, ever. Even the best among them admit they do it for themselves and not the snakes. How is that being fair to the animals?

I'd like a response to my reply to the "it's cruel then to breed" allegation. There've been a couple replies by Isodael since then, but none have touched on my counter.

Isoldael said:

Or maybe the people who don't share your opinion are just afraid to post about that. I know I've asked people in my facebook group to reply here, but they hate the atmosphere here and don't feel like getting bashed for what they feel is a pointless discussion where neither side will back down.

Can't we just agree that BOTH points of view have a wide range of supporters and leave it at that? I'm sure everyone here does what they think is best for their snakes. No one would intentionally harm their snakes as they are all our beloved pets.

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Birds of a feather flock together. I wouldn't say that cohabitation has a wide range of supporters. I would say it's quite rare in the US and Canada, and somewhat common in Europe.

The problem with your statement which is bolded is, I'm sure that is true, yet it doesn't prevent harm to the animals. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Shiari said:

I'd like a response to my reply to the "it's cruel then to breed" allegation. There've been a couple replies by Isodael since then, but none have touched on my counter.

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If the answer won't support her argument, she ignores the question.

Nanci....

More rep coming your way....

Nanci said:

If the answer won't support her argument, she ignores the question.

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Yep.

Here are the words directly from Barbara that back up the argument that cohabbing is done strictly for the keepers benefit.

SnakeAround said:

I never said I co-hab for the animals, I do it to be able to be keep more animals.

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If the cohab side would provide proof that there is a benefit to the animals, people might stop attacking them so vehemently. As it stands right now, even the most "respected" cohabbers admit they do it if for themselves and not the animals.

How does that fit with this?

Isoldael said:

I'm sure everyone here does what they think is best for their snakes. No one would intentionally harm their snakes as they are all our beloved pets.

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Oh, it does not.

Isoldael, do you have any pics of your cohab enclosures?

OMG!!!! LOL!!!!


Rep coming your way good sir!

Just got to say...thanks Josh!!

Megan beat me to it. My girl Parkay was receptive this year, but Cayenne was not at first. I saw she was trying to get away from Siri and removed her within minutes of them being together. They have since mated successfully, but on Cayenne's terms.

BloodyBaroness said:

WCR so, if you know something is wrong and something is suffering, you won't stand up and fight to help it?

We are a group of passionate and dedicated keepers that strive to help others give the best care possible to their snakes.

Everyone is free to speak an opinion. No one should be afraid to, just know that people might not 100% agree, but different opinions provoke discussion.

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Provoke discussion is one thing, but this is straight out attacking someone. Like I said, you've posted your opinion...Long ago. But yet several of you carried on, poking fun and egging the OP and any supporters on relentlessly. It's utterly embarrassing. I appreciate all advice and all opinions, but you continued to pick apart anything said and just gang up and attack like a pack of pitbulls. As mentioned, everyone should be able to speak their opinion - but this was carried on to personally attack.
I've only been a part of this forum for a few short months, and this happens quite often. Maybe it happens on all forums, but I will be honest - this was painful to read. It's no longer advise or opinions - It's adults acting like school yard bullies.

I teach my kids to be kind and have respect for everyone of all backgrounds/religions/beliefs. To be accepting. This is not the case here. You stated your difference in opinions and shared your advice with the OP. The odds were obviously in favor of those against cohabbing, clearly. It could have just been dropped....Was it? No. It has nothing to do with being passionate about snake care. When did you realize the OP wasn't going to change their opinion? I'm not a genius, but I picked up on it pretty quick.

Allow different opinions. Allow different perspectives. Appreciate your way, your care, your husbandry and care you provide your snakes. There is NO need to attack another person....For any reason.

Value your morals. You can't change the world....You CAN change your behavior.
I'm sure I will get slammed, I just would like to see more understanding towards this community. I may have no value on this forum and this community as a member, however I still feel I can stand up against such behavior and hope it opens at least someones perception of how they may provide advice to others in the future.

To each his own.

I am perfectly okay with who I am and my morals.

I am not perfectly okay with someone doing harm to their pets. I am not perfectly okay with bad/misinformation being spread as the gospel.

We don't have to see eye to eye, but we are all free to express how we feel about something. You see it one way, other people see it differently, all different views all different perspectives.

I can't rep Autumn again; someone get her for me?

I will full on admit some people have tossed out heavy handed phrases, but tough love and real talk has worked more than once in these types of threads.

I would rather know I did everything in my power to make sure good information is out there than sit back and let it roll like nothing.

Everyone is different. Seeing animals mistreated is never acceptable.