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Purist Breeders

DMong said:
DING!-DING!-DING!..............GOOD EVENING LADIES AND GENTLEMAN from the Bellagio Hotel and Casinooooo!!!!!

LLLLEETS get RRRREADY TOOOO RRRRUMMMBLEEE!!!!!!

and in THIS cornerrrrr..............the obsessed hybridizer wearing the cornsnake x thayeri x Cal. king x Imperial Pueblacorn x Hondo prrrrint trunks!!!

AAAAAND in THIS cornerrr............the logical anti-hybrid advocate representing the well-being of the herpetoculture wearing the pure WHITE trunks!



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HAHAAA!!!! :roflmao::rofl::shrugs:
Click to expand...

You teh awesome :)
 
DMong said:
DING!-DING!-DING!..............GOOD EVENING LADIES AND GENTLEMAN from the Bellagio Hotel and Casinooooo!!!!!

LLLLEETS get RRRREADY TOOOO RRRRUMMMBLEEE!!!!!!

and in THIS cornerrrrr..............the obsessed hybridizer wearing the cornsnake x thayeri x Cal. king x Imperial Pueblacorn x Hondo prrrrint trunks!!!

AAAAAND in THIS cornerrr............the logical anti-hybrid advocate representing the well-being of the herpetoculture wearing the pure WHITE trunks!



thumb.php



HAHAAA!!!! :roflmao::rofl::shrugs:
Click to expand...

Those that have no point or logical ability to refute... i.e. facts... often resort to denigrating the person in order to undermine their point. The problem is attacking the character of a person is easily seen by others as simply being crass and uncooth. Your better than that Dmong.

I am looking through the information history, etc. sections that Nanci listed and while it does seem some of the morphs had at least a portion of their ancestors traced back to wild caught... it does leave much unanswered. My reason for asking how many lines of morphs can be traced back to wild caught without interruption is simply to see if there was any possibility of breeding known lines free of impure genes with any real certainty. I would have thought that with so many purists on this forum that a few more would have spoken up and stated that they have lines where the lineages of all their snakes in that line and morph can be traced back to their natural origins. This would apparently be a great selling point as many would love to have a lavender sunkissed corn where all the ancestors could be traced back to wild caught snakes. The sad fact is, not too many seem to be keen to share this information with the general public here and if it is available elsewhere... I will continue to search as not too many seem eager to share that they have such lines with morphs that all of the ancestors thereof can be traced back to wild caught origins. To me, this speaks volumes. If I had such lines I would be jumping at the chance to let others know I had them and it would be no secret, but something I would proudly shout from the roof tops. When buyers have to research to find morphs with such a lineage.... many will simply give up and buy corn snakes from their local pet store or any old breeder that may very well have introduced hybrid genes as no lineage going back to wild caught is to be found. The fact that the registry has not been around all that long does not excuse a purist from keeping accurate records going back to the wild. Allowing unknowns to creep into ones pure corn snakes, as a purist, is simply inviting hybrids into the gene pool which is what I thought made purists so unique. The purists were the few, the proud, those that cared about the integrity of their lines.... and yet I find one breeder who will proudly share her lines and no others.... It makes me go.... hmmmm.

As for the comment, Who is Nancy? If you honestly don't recognize a typo when you see it or can't infer that I mean Nanci, the one I've been thanking throughout this thread....

I get the strong feeling that accurate lineages are not too often kept by morph breeders by Airenlows comment as well.... you don't have to read too much into it as its about as plain as a chainsaw buzzing in your face.

Bottom line, if you want to claim you have pure snakes then you have to be able to trace the lineage of all your snakes back to wild caught in your lineage. If you can't do this or won't share this.... then that puts your pure snakes in question. I am beginning to understand why breeders may not want to dna test to prove parentage now.....

I like to see things from all sides and when one side does not supply the evidence I am left thinking many may be hypocrites. Surely, even if you don't have morph lines where all the ancestors can be traced back to the wild somone here must know where to get them if they exist and they are serious about keeping their gene pool pure. Now, if a certain amount of uncertainty is okay with purists then what is that % of uncertainty/impurity? I would genuinely like the answers to these questions and when they are skirted by statements such as do your homework or lets get ready to rumble we are just allowing what should be a caring intelligent sharing of information and opinions to go to pieces.

Be proud if you have pure species morphs where the entire lineage can be traced back to the wild and share them here on this thread. That is all I am asking.

I'm not asking to rumble, poke fun of, or for anyone to do any homework. I'm asking for those that are proud of their line of morphs with a proven lineage where all members can be traced back to the wild to post here so that others also interested in knowing where to attain these elusive pure corn morphs can also attain them. This is helping everyone out. The debassing another is doing nothing to help. You've made your point Dmong, you don't like me. Starsevol, it is also blatantly clear how you feel about me. I forgive you all. I would still like answers to these questions.
 
starsevol said:
You teh awesome :)
Click to expand...

Let me ask this another way so that it is more personal.
Starsevol, do you have any pure corn snake morphs that the entire lineage can be traced back to wild caught and are you willing to share that lineage with your customers?

Is there a degree of uncertanty in some of your lines? Meaning, are there some lines you can not trace back all of the members to wild caught?
If so, what is the degree/% of uncertainty in those lines?
 
I'm keeping my collection as pure as it was when I entered the hobby. Does that make any sense? All we can do at this point is not make things worse.

It's not that we won't take the time to trace our critters' family trees...it's just impossible to go back to WC animals. My Lava Okeetees would probably be the easiest to trace, but even they are ph Amel Anery Lav Stripe. So, obviously crossed into hobby corns a few times.
 
airenlow said:
I'm keeping my collection as pure as it was when I entered the hobby. Does that make any sense? All we can do at this point is not make things worse.

It's not that we won't take the time to trace our critters' family trees...it's just impossible to go back to WC animals. My Lava Okeetees would probably be the easiest to trace, but even they are ph Amel Anery Lav Stripe. So, obviously crossed into hobby corns a few times.
Click to expand...

I get where your coming at with your first two sentences, but I'm not sure it makes sense. The problem that I see is that if your line was purer than anothers line and you bred to their line that also had the same philosophy then you may still pollute your line further. For that matter, your lines may be completely pure and just of uncertain origin/records at one point. Its just uncertain the way I understand it.

Your second statement, "It's not that we won't take the time to trace our critters' family trees" needs clarification. I believe that what your trying to say is that the records were not kept so well at one point in the hobby. This makes it an impossibility to undo what is done in the past or create a lineage that is accurate now. If records were kept of lineages from the start then there would be a way to trace lineages all the way back to wild caught for everyone who did so.

airenlow said:
You're not going to find many morphs that trace back. Once a critter is crossed into morphs, all heck breaks loose...
Click to expand...

If we take the above facts to be self evident... The unlikelihood of finding morphs that can be traced back leads one to assume that perhaps the best way of finding one that can be traced back is to ask the breeders which I have been doing in this thread... repeatedly....
Thank you for being honest and not trying to shove off the facts as a need to do homework or otherwise trying to attack my character or fill this thread up with dribble designed to take away from the real importance of this thread, which I personally see as this at the very least:
1. Many love pure species
2. Many would love to know where to get pure species and pure species morphs alike.
3. If breeders don't come forward with this information or skirt the issue when it is addressed people will continue to inadvertently muddle the gene pool more. Accurate records of lineages are a must for any purist as is the sharing of the most accurate records possible with buyers which is why I applaud the efforts of the registry and those involved in it.
.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
My point for all of this is to ask, how many serious breeders can trace the lineage of all their snakes all the way back to wild caught origins?
Click to expand...

ZERO, but crossing them willy-nilly into every other species probably isn't the answer either...
 
airenlow said:
ZERO, but crossing them willy-nilly into every other species probably isn't the answer either...
Click to expand...

Josh is right. Exactly zero.

Even the simple morphs like caramel and amel get muddy fast if you start trying to trace them all the back to the first wild caught example.

The only exception is some of the wild caught locality stuff like the Alabama, Keys, or area specific corns.
 
airenlow said:
ZERO, but crossing them willy-nilly into every other species probably isn't the answer either...
Click to expand...

If a purist keeps records and only accepts snakes of known pedigrees into his collection then it is impossible to introduce unknowns from the starting point of the other persons lineage that he/she is introducing.

In a nutshell, if we grandfather in all corn snakes that look like corn snakes and started today with that and kept records from today onwards... there would be no further problems of unknown origin or uncertainty stemming from future breedings. The only problems that could arise would be those from the snakes that were already grandfathered in.

Crossing snakes willy-nilly will never influence a breeder who keeps accurate pedigrees and demands the same of those others whom he/she would acquire snakes from. The problem of uncertain purity most surely almost always arises from a purist that accepts a snake of unknown and uncertain lineage into his/her breeding pool. When in doubt, chuck it out or grandfather it in based on some sound reasoning.... i.e. it has a pedigree going back 7 generations with no indication of hybrids showing up in its progeny, siblings, etc. Another option of course would be to dilute out the hybrid genes by breeding morphs of uncertain pedigrees back to wild caught pure specimens for 7 generations giving you virtually pure guarantee percentage wise anyways.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
Those that have no point or logical ability to refute... i.e. facts... often resort to denigrating the person in order to undermine their point. The problem is attacking the character of a person is easily seen by others as simply being crass and uncooth. Your better than that Dmong.

I am looking through the information history, etc. sections that Nanci listed and while it does seem some of the morphs had at least a portion of their ancestors traced back to wild caught... it does leave much unanswered. My reason for asking how many lines of morphs can be traced back to wild caught without interruption is simply to see if there was any possibility of breeding known lines free of impure genes with any real certainty. I would have thought that with so many purists on this forum that a few more would have spoken up and stated that they have lines where the lineages of all their snakes in that line and morph can be traced back to their natural origins. This would apparently be a great selling point as many would love to have a lavender sunkissed corn where all the ancestors could be traced back to wild caught snakes. The sad fact is, not too many seem to be keen to share this information with the general public here and if it is available elsewhere... I will continue to search as not too many seem eager to share that they have such lines with morphs that all of the ancestors thereof can be traced back to wild caught origins. To me, this speaks volumes. If I had such lines I would be jumping at the chance to let others know I had them and it would be no secret, but something I would proudly shout from the roof tops. When buyers have to research to find morphs with such a lineage.... many will simply give up and buy corn snakes from their local pet store or any old breeder that may very well have introduced hybrid genes as no lineage going back to wild caught is to be found. The fact that the registry has not been around all that long does not excuse a purist from keeping accurate records going back to the wild. Allowing unknowns to creep into ones pure corn snakes, as a purist, is simply inviting hybrids into the gene pool which is what I thought made purists so unique. The purists were the few, the proud, those that cared about the integrity of their lines.... and yet I find one breeder who will proudly share her lines and no others.... It makes me go.... hmmmm.

As for the comment, Who is Nancy? If you honestly don't recognize a typo when you see it or can't infer that I mean Nanci, the one I've been thanking throughout this thread....

I get the strong feeling that accurate lineages are not too often kept by morph breeders by Airenlows comment as well.... you don't have to read too much into it as its about as plain as a chainsaw buzzing in your face.

Bottom line, if you want to claim you have pure snakes then you have to be able to trace the lineage of all your snakes back to wild caught in your lineage. If you can't do this or won't share this.... then that puts your pure snakes in question. I am beginning to understand why breeders may not want to dna test to prove parentage now.....

I like to see things from all sides and when one side does not supply the evidence I am left thinking many may be hypocrites. Surely, even if you don't have morph lines where all the ancestors can be traced back to the wild somone here must know where to get them if they exist and they are serious about keeping their gene pool pure. Now, if a certain amount of uncertainty is okay with purists then what is that % of uncertainty/impurity? I would genuinely like the answers to these questions and when they are skirted by statements such as do your homework or lets get ready to rumble we are just allowing what should be a caring intelligent sharing of information and opinions to go to pieces.

Be proud if you have pure species morphs where the entire lineage can be traced back to the wild and share them here on this thread. That is all I am asking.

I'm not asking to rumble, poke fun of, or for anyone to do any homework. I'm asking for those that are proud of their line of morphs with a proven lineage where all members can be traced back to the wild to post here so that others also interested in knowing where to attain these elusive pure corn morphs can also attain them. This is helping everyone out. The debassing another is doing nothing to help. You've made your point Dmong, you don't like me. Starsevol, it is also blatantly clear how you feel about me. I forgive you all. I would still like answers to these questions.
Click to expand...


I have plenty of logical ability, points and facts that I have presented here and many other places. I also have a good sense of humor that I applied when I saw exactly what was going on here again.

But in any case, yes.....I have a fair number of snakes that are wild-collected themselves, and several corns that are 100% locale-specific to the very palm trees they were collected in, and are plotted on google earth. I also know where to acquire some very special things (corns, kings, milksnakes, ratsnakes, etc...) that I keep much more private about. This is because if just any typical "John Q. Public" acquired these types, they would likely be no different than most of the others and instantly become a typical hobby snake of unknown lineage (or far worse....the notorious "H" word). I also have a good number of "hobby" snakes too, and I know the differences and breed accordingly.


~Doug
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
Let me ask this another way so that it is more personal.
Starsevol, do you have any pure corn snake morphs that the entire lineage can be traced back to wild caught and are you willing to share that lineage with your customers?


Is there a degree of uncertanty in some of your lines? Meaning, are there some lines you can not trace back all of the members to wild caught?
If so, what is the degree/% of uncertainty in those lines?
Click to expand...

Considering that cornsnakes have been kept in captivity for more than 60 years, and when I first entered the hobby I did not know that a rootbeer is a hybrid mutt, and considering that scientific names themselves have changed several times in that period, I will have to answer no. No, I cannot for sure trace any of my animals back to wild stock. I think that 99% of breeders would be unable do to that. But, if there is any question about anything I breed, I disclose 100% of what I know to my customers.


airenlow said:
I'm keeping my collection as pure as it was when I entered the hobby. Does that make any sense? All we can do at this point is not make things worse.

It's not that we won't take the time to trace our critters' family trees...it's just impossible to go back to WC animals. My Lava Okeetees would probably be the easiest to trace, but even they are ph Amel Anery Lav Stripe. So, obviously crossed into hobby corns a few times.
Click to expand...

Exactly!!! And when hybriders wholesale and dump their babies that don't look "different, artistic, strange, abnormal" enough, or aren't their target all it does it make things so much worse. It is virtually impossible to trace our snakes at this point, the damage is irreversible. The damage can't be undone, and it makes me so angry. All we can do is go on from this point.

airenlow said:
ZERO, but crossing them willy-nilly into every other species probably isn't the answer either...
Click to expand...

Nope. It just ruins entire species and makes a mess.
 
(That reminds me- I showed Daniel Parker a photo of an Indigo someone had sent me. He asked about the location because he's doing some kind of study- that snake was located right down to its GPS location!)
 
Is there a value to a pretty locality Florida cornsnake? Not saying I would, because I have ENOUGH SNAKES, but if I went out in my yard and picked up a pair of normals- would those snakes have locality value? Or is it just the odd ones, like Devils Garden and Hunt Club and Alabama and Khaki Corn?
 
Also, I did notice your nice new avatar Carpe.


One very important thing to remember about it though. See, when a mind is TOO open and far too liberal about everything, it can then become very destructive and detrimental. Today's society is always proving this. And I see today's herpetocultural hobby as being no different at all.

There is really nothing else I could add here.............


~Doug
 
If you open your mind too much your brains will fall out

DMong said:
Also, I did notice your nice new avatar Carpe.


One very important thing to remember about it though. See, when a mind is TOO open and far too liberal about everything, it can then become very destructive and detrimental. Today's society is always proving this. And I see today's herpetocultural hobby as being no different at all.

There is really nothing else I could add here.............


~Doug
Click to expand...
Tim Minchin-If you open your mind too much your brains will fall out

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg

This ones for you Dmong. I couldn't agree more with the sentiments in this song. Trust me, I'm open to new facts and I'll listen to beliefs and opinions, but in the end I need facts. And the plain simple facts are that if you know the lineage of your snakes all the way back to the wild without exception and demand the same of others you deal with hybrids can't sneak into your collection. Thus, those that hybridize do no damage to the real purists. Those that settle for less will almost always get less.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
Tim Minchin-If you open your mind too much your brains will fall out

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg

This ones for you Dmong. I couldn't agree more with the sentiments in this song. Trust me, I'm open to new facts and I'll listen to beliefs and opinions, but in the end I need facts. And the plain simple facts are that if you know the lineage of your snakes all the way back to the wild without exception and demand the same of others you deal with hybrids can't sneak into your collection. Thus, those that hybridize do no damage to the real purists. Those that settle for less will almost always get less.
Click to expand...

On the other hand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to verify the lineage of most of the corns in the hobby today. You are better off to destroy everything in everyone's collection and start over.
And I do think that hybridizer's did a ton of damage to this hobby.
When someone goes to buy a cornsnake, they should be getting a cornsnake. Not something other than a cornsnake.

Hybridizers took something that was pure and real and ruined it so that nothing is as it seems anymore.

Just like when you go to buy a diamond ring, you don't want a cz, you want a diamond.
 
starsevol said:
On the other hand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to verify the lineage of most of the corns in the hobby today. You are better off to destroy everything in everyone's collection and start over.
And I do think that hybridizer's did a ton of damage to this hobby.
When someone goes to buy a cornsnake, they should be getting a cornsnake. Not something other than a cornsnake.

Hybridizers took something that was pure and real and ruined it so that nothing is as it seems anymore.

Just like when you go to buy a diamond ring, you don't want a cz, you want a diamond.
Click to expand...

Hybridizers don't ruin anything as they don't force you not to know the lineage of the snakes you work with. When you accept snakes into your breeding pool with unknown lineage then you are agreeing to work with possible hybrids or suspect snakes. As a breeder, no one is tying your hands forcing you not to ask for a lineage of the snakes your working with. You have to take responsibility for the snakes you choose to work with and if you choose to work with suspect or otherwise unknown variables that will always be your choice. The hybridizer doesn't make these choices for you.

If you go to buy a diamond you have every right to ask for proof that it is a diamond and not a cubic zirconium. If you don't ask for proof. That is on you just as it is with the breeder who doesn't know the lineage of his corn snakes. You can try to place the blame on the hybridizer, but in the end a hybridizer is a hybridizer and a purist is a purist. The two are separate from each other and each serves their own goals. Don't expect a hybridizer to do your job of keeping track of the purity of the corn snakes in your breeding pool, but instead, take responsibility for the corn snakes lineages that you choose to work with.
 
starsevol said:
On the other hand, it is IMPOSSIBLE to verify the lineage of most of the corns in the hobby today. You are better off to destroy everything in everyone's collection and start over.
And I do think that hybridizer's did a ton of damage to this hobby.
When someone goes to buy a cornsnake, they should be getting a cornsnake. Not something other than a cornsnake.

Hybridizers took something that was pure and real and ruined it so that nothing is as it seems anymore.

Just like when you go to buy a diamond ring, you don't want a cz, you want a diamond.
Click to expand...


I couldn't have said it ANY better!........except they can never be taken back and destroyed. They will be doing the destroying to the general hobby forever. It's just too bad there were and are so many that contributed to it.

As mentioned before, all anyone can do is carry on and think about what they do that will affect other things later. Again, I am not talking only cornsnakes here AT ALL!


~Doug
 
I guess I don't see the big picture. No one is breeding cornsnakes to release back into the wild. If it's a cool looking snake, and people like it, then why get upset about it? I just don't get it :shrugs:
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
Hybridizers don't ruin anything as they don't force you not to know the lineage of the snakes you work with. When you accept snakes into your breeding pool with unknown lineage then you are agreeing to work with possible hybrids or suspect snakes. As a breeder, no one is tying your hands forcing you not to ask for a lineage of the snakes your working with. You have to take responsibility for the snakes you choose to work with and if you choose to work with suspect or otherwise unknown variables that will always be your choice. The hybridizer doesn't make these choices for you.

If you go to buy a diamond you have every right to ask for proof that it is a diamond and not a cubic zirconium. If you don't ask for proof. That is on you just as it is with the breeder who doesn't know the lineage of his corn snakes. You can try to place the blame on the hybridizer, but in the end a hybridizer is a hybridizer and a purist is a purist. The two are separate from each other and each serves their own goals. Don't expect a hybridizer to do your job of keeping track of the purity of the corn snakes in your breeding pool, but instead, take responsibility for the corn snakes lineages that you choose to work with.
Click to expand...

You aren't getting it, until recently NO ONE, I REPEAT NO ONE kept extensive records of such things. All my snakes are registered with the ACR, I signed onto it the first year it existed. And others actually laughed at me, the idea of a pedigree for a snake!!
So what do you do with the generations of snakes that came from ancestors in captivity since the 60s?

When someone posts some abberrant hybrid monstosity that is all bright colors but looks like neither parent, many on here swoon. I look at it and wonder how many pure looking offspring were dumped to create it.

I don't like things where they are now. But it doesn't have to get worse.
 
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