Additional Info On Mice Direct Recall

[wstphal]

By the way, what does "irradiating" consist of? Is it complicated and a lot of trouble?[/sarcasm] (I'm sure it is.)
Does it not degrade other organisms or molecules that might make the feeders have less nutritional value? Don't make fun of me, because I just don't know and am asking a humble question.

They use a gamma radiation source & the food just goes past it on a conveyor belt, I believe. Should work for mice. Or a simple setup would be a source with a shutter. Put mice in front of source, step out of room, press button to open shutter, shutter closes automatically after the right number of seconds.

Properly done this kills most or all bacteria & maybe viruses, does not kill multicellular parasites, and supposedly doesn't degrade the nutritional content. I say supposedly because that is what all the available info says but it is always possible there is non-available info that is different.

 

[JoannaD]

"If people don't wash their hands after they go to the bathroom how well do you think they wash after they do pet care?"

I agree with you 100% on that. But at what point do we tell these same people "Hey, you're on your own, we warned you you're gonna get sick if you do this, now you're sick" instead of the government throwing more money in the fire in a vain attempt to protect everyone from all things?

Just my viewpoint

I completely see your point and it is a very hard line to draw. Let's look at this from another point of view. If an outbreak of Salmonella is large enough let's say there are 50 hospitalizations and 5 of those people die. Ten of them have prolonged hospital stays resulting in several weeks off of work and a couple of them lose their jobs. They end up on unemployment. Five of the 50 have no health insurance and so the hospital ends up eating the cost of those hospital stays and the rates they charge to others who pay their bills or insurance companies go up to make up for those costs. Of the five that die 2 are children under the age of 4.

Now who's paying the cost? Of course I am exaggerating but nothing is ever simple and straight forward.

Some of the investigations are also done for scientific reasons and also to try and help find ways to prevent this in the future.

I also want to say that I have been in touch with John from Mice Direct and he has been absolutely wonderful about responding to my questions. The poor guy is clearly overwhelmed and worried. I really hope they can survive this.

 

[kathylove]

I am no microbiologist, or even biologist, but...

from what I have read over the years, it is commonly accepted that poultry and eggs are very often contaminated with Salmonella, and many other raw foods are, too. And many pet reptiles are carriers. We are supposed to treat them accordingly. I just consider them all to be ""tainted". I don't see a big difference from all of the various sources, except that some are meant to be cooked and eaten by humans, while the mice are just handled by humans, and eaten raw by the snakes.

I think it is a good idea for the CDC to track such things. Now and then, a particularly virulent strain of some common microbe, such as E. coli (that we ALL have lots of SOME STRAIN of right now, but may still succumb to some other strain) will be discovered and require treatment. I would imagine that is also the case with Salmonella. I just don't like to see the findings overblown out of proportion to risks from other, non-reptile related sources.

I always preach thorough hand washing. BUT - I don't always carefully practice what I preach. I thaw out mice on the counter (I DO wash it afterwards, but not with bleach). I have eaten lunch in the reptile room. But I have been doing these things since at least the '70s, and found what works FOR ME. But IF I had young children, old people, or immuno-compromised people in the household, I would be more careful.

In fact, in the late '90s, Bill's mom lived with us for a while. And I was much more careful to keep everything contained in the reptile room during that time, and even during the years when we had foreign exchange students living with us. But with just the two of us "old farts" here, and with us virtually never getting sick (knock on wood!), I don't get as alarmed about these reports as I would if I had preschool kids in the house.

 

[JoannaD]

Kathy,

Thank you for your honest post. I think the same holds true for most of us. In fact didn't Wade drink a pinky once?

It's not only the mice that we need to be careful of but all the surfaces the snake's feces touches and the surfaces that the mouse has been on or our hands have touched after we have touched the mouse. And yet the vast majority of us do not get ill and won't. But if you are one of the one's to get sick you might not feel so relaxed about the whole thing after you get sick!

 

[wstphal]

Yes, Wade drank a pinkie. The post title is something like "I think I am gonna die".

I have had a number of KNOWN Salmonella exposures over my lifetime. Several large gatherings I attended where there was subsequently an outbreak & the traceback led to foods I ate at that gathering. I've NEVER had an illness that looked clinically like Salmonella.

So like Kathy, I don't worry much at all when I am the only one around. But if I am going to have guests come over I go on a rampage of cleaning the area where rodents are thawed & slit with bleach solution allowed to dry on. And if I had small children, frail people, or immunocompromised people coming as guests I would be that thorough EVERY day. But honestly after the known exposures I have quit worrying for myself.

 

[kathylove]

But if you are one of the one's to get sick you might not feel so relaxed about the whole thing after you get sick!

EXACTLY! That is why we should continue to tell beginners to be "overcautious" about hand washing and other sanitary measures when they start in the hobby. Over time, if they never get sick, they will probably get lax as many of us do. And, over time, they will probably build up a resistance to whatever microbes are floating around their house and reptile room. But if they or their family members happen to be among the few that are prone to catching everything, and have weak immune systems, then they will quickly learn to keep their antimicrobial habits up to whatever level they seem to need. That seems sensible to me, and goes along with the way human nature usually works anyway, lol!

 

[Drizzt80]

What I find interesting is how adamant some people are about the proper care of animals, and their diet, yet appear to be okay with irradiation as a "cure" or solution. The few sources I've read on it in the last few days doesn't make me feel very comfortable about it. I'll take my chances with Salmonella wherever it may come from. :shrugs:

D80

PS. I'm not a "natural" living health nut either . . . that's an entirely different extreme in the other direction!!

 

[kathylove]

I am kind of iffy about that, too. I haven't read anything about it lately. But back when it was new, I read both sides of the controversy, and didn't come to any real conclusion about irradiation. When in doubt, I would rather not be the guinea pig. I will have to read up on it now that it has been around a while. Maybe there is more info that will help me make up my mind.

 

[wstphal]

What I find interesting is how adamant some people are about the proper care of animals, and their diet, yet appear to be okay with irradiation as a "cure" or solution. The few sources I've read on it in the last few days doesn't make me feel very comfortable about it. I'll take my chances with Salmonella wherever it may come from.

I'm not necessarily an advocate for it as a universal. I think it's good if some companies offer irradiated rodents. That would be an extra safety margin for a reptile keeper or raptor rehabilitator with a compromised immune system, that they could purchase irradiated. Others who prefer to avoid the risk of bringing Salmonella into their homes, likewise, and those of us who are not that concerned, or prefer to feed our animals un-irradiated should be able to get that too.

 

[Feuerhak]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, it's a pleasure to see intelligent and productive dialogue about this. Too many times conversations turn into personal rants where "my opinion is the ONLY right opinion."

As a corrections officer and an EMT, I do feel that too much time and energy is expended on virtually idol concerns like salmonella. We are constantly, and mostly unknowingly exposed to all sorts of Hep variations, TB, and the like that are infinitely more virulent and can be almost universally relied upon to cause long-term, life altering issues.

 

[vetusvates]

I'm still with Brent.
And thanks, Betsy for the irradiation information.
Don't hatchlings have to get normal gut flora (not Salmonella) from somewhere. Feeding them sterile(?) pinks/rodents seems counterproductive.
Besides, I would hate for new and expensive procedures and equipment to be imposed on suppliers.

Note : as most everyone knows, salmonella strains are among the normal gut flora of many animal species, but there has to have a vehicle by/in which to multiply to give an adequate loading dose to cause sickness.
Refering to what Terri said, that would mean either licking _a lot_ of mice,....or letting a potato, egg, or pasta dish 'incubate' for a minimum of several hours for the numbers to be high enough to cause illness.

IMHO, it seems like a clearly worded precautionary disclaimer, posted in plain view, would be the logical and practical route.

 

[wstphal]

I'm still with Brent.
And thanks, Betsy for the irradiation information.
Don't hatchlings have to get normal gut flora (not Salmonella) from somewhere. Feeding them sterile(?) pinks/rodents seems counterproductive.

Human babies have to get normal gut flora from SOMEWHERE but people make an enormous effort to feed their babies absolutely sterile food (breast milk or formula). And yet the human babies manage it!

I do, however, agree that sterile pinks are probably not optimal.

 

[JoannaD]

Right, wrong, or indifferent, it's a pleasure to see intelligent and productive dialogue about this. Too many times conversations turn into personal rants where "my opinion is the ONLY right opinion."

As a corrections officer and an EMT, I do feel that too much time and energy is expended on virtually idol concerns like salmonella. We are constantly, and mostly unknowingly exposed to all sorts of Hep variations, TB, and the like that are infinitely more virulent and can be almost universally relied upon to cause long-term, life altering issues.

Absolutely true but we can't stop people from breathing, having sex or even doing drugs! It is much easier to enforce industry standards of hygiene etc. And those are enforceable and measurable. It's much harder to stop people from sharing needles and we can't force people to wear condoms! You don't want to even get into the discussion about giving away needles!

You have to remember that infections as a cause of morbidity and mortality improved because of better living conditions and sanitation with the advent of running water. It had nothing to do with antibiotics or medicine. So if industries can be held to a high level of hygiene we will continue to have lower rates of infection of many diseases that used to cause a lot of pain and suffering, never mind death! Diarrhea is still a leading cause of death in children in most of the world. All of us are too young to have been alive when that was true here.

 

[kathylove]

"I do, however, agree that sterile pinks are probably not optimal."

I guess the bright side is that I might sell more Nutri Bac, lol???

If I will be buying irradiated mice, then I guess I will make an effort to occasionally feed live or freshly killed mice that I produce myself, as well as the occasional dose of NB, to help keep the gut flora in proper balance.

 

[JoannaD]

I'd have to go back and look at the studies, but I think after one of the outbreaks that was traced back to a supplier in Texas (that was operating under the radar and in which conditions sounded pretty awful) they then went to a whole bunch of suppliers that were cleaner and basically found almost no salmonella. I think this included the salmonella that can normally live in the snakes gut. The current worry and the one from the study involves a strain of salmonella that causes illness in humans (and mice) but does not stay with the snake. In the study I read they did find the salmonella in some snake feces but these were snakes that were being fed the mice that were infected so I assumed the salmonella was there from a recent feeding.

As to sterile mice you may have a point. But lets face it our animals do not live under "natural conditions" so they probably don't have the same bacterial and parasite load they would in the wild and I doubt your homes and their enclosures are sterile. If they are you are welcome to come to my home and clean it! I have lived by the rule that my children and I will eat at least a packet of dirt before we die!

 

[vetusvates]

"I do, however, agree that sterile pinks are probably not optimal."

I guess the bright side is that I might sell more Nutri Bac, lol???

If I will be buying irradiated mice, then I guess I will make an effort to occasionally feed live or freshly killed mice that I produce myself, as well as the occasional dose of NB, to help keep the gut flora in proper balance.

LOL. So right, Kathy.