Adult Corn feeding habits

[zakdat]

Hello. Some history on Pancake. She is used to being fed a live medium ASF rat every 2 weeks in the evening. On alternating two weeks she has a bath in which she defecates. She rarely soils her tank. I had asked her previous owner about feeding frozen, since I'm a worrier and I would hate to have a rat chewing on my new little one, so her owner tried one with her. Pancake had it half way down when she regurgitated. She was stressed enough that she pooped as well. I'm not sure how the owner thawed the rat; if it was too hot or still cold, but it was not a great experience. The next night was when we picked Pancake up and brought her home. We handled her a bit that night, rested two, handled two and rested one. When being handled she has been calm and curious, not really trying to hide or anything and we kept the sessions short (except for one when she completely relaxed on me). The last three nights she has been poking her head out and watching us as we walk by.

She hasn't eaten for 3 weeks, so today we picked up a rat for her. It was 4pm when we tried to feed. She acted completely uninterested. We left them for about 15 minutes, and when it was obvious she was not remotely interested, we took the rat out. It turns out that I happened to have everything on hand to keep a rat for awhile until she decides it's time to eat.

Couple of thoughts on where I went wrong. 1) Fed too early in the evening and she wasn't awake enough yet to be interested (her owner had mentioned she usually doesn't eat morning/afternoon, but I though 4pm might be close enough to evening). 2) Handled her too much this last week and she's still trying to adjust to a different house. We have only had her for 6 days at this point.

As I type this, she's watching me from her hide. Her ehad is poked out and she seems unafraid So, where do I go from here? Should I try again tonight now that she's awake and watching me? Wait for a week with no handling, and then try next Sunday (or sooner)? Wait a week but still intermittently handle her? Should I give her a bath as per her schedule or wait a week until after she's fed?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

How old and how big is pancake? I ask this because you are feeding her a medium rat. Unless your snake is really really big, that may be too big a meal for her. Most corn snakes do well on mice, and even a large adult snake can do ok with a large mouse every 10 to 14 days. Unless your snake is 5 feet long and weighs over 450 grams, feeding a rat is probably not a good idea. (Forget what the previous owner told you. Let's just do it right from now on).

Also keep in mind, (there are several causes for regurgitation) but the main cause is a food item too big for the snake to digest properly.

In thawing frozen prey, I place a frozen mouse in the refrigerator overnight and it is thawed the next morning. All I have to do then is place it in warm water (not boiling) just regular warm water from the tap for about 15 minutes to allow the mouse to come up to temperature.

My snake springs on it and has only refused a meal 1 time because he was about to shed.

 

[Dragonling]

African soft furred rats are smaller than the rats you're thinking of, Karl. A medium is about 30-50g depending on where you get it, perhaps a touch big but not outside of the norm for a larger corn snake, and so long as feedings are spread to every two weeks it should be fine. Just make sure you don't mistakenly buy a medium RAT rat, Zakdat, as those can be upwards of 150g.

The regular bath thing is...unusual. I suppose if it works, it works. I've not personally witnessed a corn or ball python that seemed to enjoy the experience, but that's a small sample size.

I gotten a few fussy ball pythons at work to convert to frozen with the zombie dance, gently dragging the mouse through the cage or along a paper towel as though it were alive. It gets my corns going too, so I do it often with my adults to get them to strike and coil harder.

 

[axis1]

African soft furred rats are smaller than the rats you're thinking of, Karl. A medium is about 30-50g depending on where you get it, perhaps a touch big but not outside of the norm for a larger corn snake, and so long as feedings are spread to every two weeks it should be fine. Just make sure you don't mistakenly buy a medium RAT rat, Zakdat, as those can be upwards of 150g.

The regular bath thing is...unusual. I suppose if it works, it works. I've not personally witnessed a corn or ball python that seemed to enjoy the experience, but that's a small sample size.

I gotten a few fussy ball pythons at work to convert to frozen with the zombie dance, gently dragging the mouse through the cage or along a paper towel as though it were alive. It gets my corns going too, so I do it often with my adults to get them to strike and coil harder.

ZOMBIE DANCE? :eek1: I LOVE the visual! Thanx Dragonling, I needed that on this drabby, rainy Monday in NYC. LOL! But I agree, it totally works and I've done it since I was a kid with my beloved Boa, Medusa, who lived for over 15 years! I used to tie a string around a rat's tail and she used to chase it ALL over (of course, I had to carefully snip the string with a scissor if it didn't slip off once she grabbed it!).

However, this is an interesting topic (or several all rolled into one, for that matter). First off, the old rule of thumb works even for a small or medium rat or ANY rodent (1 to 1.5x the width of the snake at its widest part). So when I feed my little sneaky ones small rats (anywhere from 50 to 70 grams), regardless of weight & size, I always eyeball them relative to the snake I'm giving it to as some rodents are bottom-heavy and could potentially cause an obstruction. (If you have to REALLY examine it closely, it may not be worth chancing anyway, IMO). That said, all of my adult snakes enjoy small rats every 21 days or so. But I do try to alternate with jumbo mice (every 14 days) during the winter months. My Lilly is barely over 3 feet but she has NO PROBLEM crushing a small rat into her vice-like jaws & elastic throat! Rats seem to also provoke a relatively strong feeding response! Discussing this privately with others, I realize that while this topic may cause some controversy (rats vs. mice as food), I only want what's best for my snakes. When researching the differences between them, all I can find is that rats have a higher fat content, and therefore, slightly more protein than a mouse. So unless a snake will have some difficulty switching back to mice, what's the harm?

I also notice that when forcing a dead mouse or rat to do the ZOMBIE DANCE, that the snakes that have a stronger or more aggressive feeding response MAY have some type of sight impairment. Or is it that they get SO excited by the prospect of food in their vicinity that they MISS while attempting to strike at a dangling rodent? (I notice my Ozzy becomes SO adrenalized at a rodent hanging from a pair of tongs that he will strike at ANYTHING that MOVES during one of these feeding sessions! However, if the mouse is dangling RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM is NOT moving, it's like he CAN'T see it! Does that mean he's partially blind? I have dropped a rodent LITERALLY, RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS FACE and it's like he can't SEE it! I know he can see, but these little incidents indicate, to me, SOME type of perceptive issue, no?). My other adult snakes, particularly the males, the ones who nudge at a rodent as if trying to wake it up don't seem to have this problem. Just curious if anyone else has experienced it.

As far as giving a snake a bath? WHY? It's a corn snake, not a species known to swim regularly or prefer to hunt or live near bodies of water. Exercise should consist of climbing and burrowing and everything else a corn does while it moves. But to immerse it in water when it's NOT having a problem is something I've never heard of. Doesn't mean I think it's awful or that I'm not open to new things, but why put a snake through something like that if it's unnecessary? I would think that a corn will go when it has to go and shouldn't be encouraged to go BEFORE that time. It may be conditioning the snake to associate water with that particular function and might lead to the snake relieving itself in the water bowl, no? I don't know, it's just weird and I would be interested to hear what others might have to say about this strange topic.

As far as African Soft Rats, do they have a higher protein content than mice? Or are they just more convenient to raise because they smell less offensively? (I once read something like that).

Lots of potential topics in that one post! WAY TO GO! Things around the forum have been relatively DEAD lately, so maybe this is one way of livening it up a little?

I don't know, but it's worth a try. At the very least, I'd be interested to see some input on the topics in this particular thread.

How ya been???

 

[zakdat]

Lol. Love the zombie dance. I think I will stick with live for now with her until I have her reliably eating for me. As far as the size of the rat goes, I would say it's very close to Pancake's diameter, so probably not a size issue. I'm thinking it was a stress thing - I was thinking we could wait until Friday with no handling, just cleaning the tank & water and then try again with the rat.

As far as the bath goes, when Pancake was small apparently she had developed some scale rot when a friend was looking after her. Her owner took her to the vet, and that's when the baths started. Her owner trained her to go in the tub after that and there have been no problems since. She'll still occasionally go in her tank, but for the most part it's in her bath. I'm planning on sticking with her routine as close as I can until I get to know her better.

Her owner had also said that she might be going into shed soon. It's hard to tell as I've only had her for a week and I don't know her usual coloring. She hasn't gone blue yet or anything that I've seen. However last night was the first night she spent in her warm hide since we've had her. Normally she sticks to the cool hide. Has anyone noticed whether their little ones stick to the warm side before a shed?

I love how I can read everything I can find about an animal, and then when I get the animal in my home I still have so much to learn. And reptiles are such fascinating creatures. My eldest son, who is almost 8, shares my fascination with them and it's been a great bonding thing for us.

 

[axis1]

Lol. Love the zombie dance. I think I will stick with live for now with her until I have her reliably eating for me. As far as the size of the rat goes, I would say it's very close to Pancake's diameter, so probably not a size issue. I'm thinking it was a stress thing - I was thinking we could wait until Friday with no handling, just cleaning the tank & water and then try again with the rat.

As far as the bath goes, when Pancake was small apparently she had developed some scale rot when a friend was looking after her. Her owner took her to the vet, and that's when the baths started. Her owner trained her to go in the tub after that and there have been no problems since. She'll still occasionally go in her tank, but for the most part it's in her bath. I'm planning on sticking with her routine as close as I can until I get to know her better.

Her owner had also said that she might be going into shed soon. It's hard to tell as I've only had her for a week and I don't know her usual coloring. She hasn't gone blue yet or anything that I've seen. However last night was the first night she spent in her warm hide since we've had her. Normally she sticks to the cool hide. Has anyone noticed whether their little ones stick to the warm side before a shed?

I love how I can read everything I can find about an animal, and then when I get the animal in my home I still have so much to learn. And reptiles are such fascinating creatures. My eldest son, who is almost 8, shares my fascination with them and it's been a great bonding thing for us.

Hey zakdat! How ya been?

Well, thanx for clearing up the bathing piece. However, now there's another, and imo, a larger concern. If you are feeding your corn live rats, I would say that you are chancing a serious injury to your snake. Even a small rat can have significantly sharper teeth & claws that can cut like talons! If you're feeding live, maybe stick with mice for now? Just my opinion, of course, but just sayin'.

I wasn't aware that you only had this snake for a short period of time. I hope that everything works out for you and the development of a long & fruitful relationship with the newest member of your household!!

 

[zakdat]

Good! How you doin Axis1? lol. I have the same concerns with feeding live rats. I was only going to try it once or twice until I have an idea of what kind of eater she is and then start switching things up, hopefully to F/T. I've even taken the temp (using my temp gun) of the rat so when I switch I can get the F/T to the same temp.

In the meantime, do you think we'd have a better chance with a successful first meal if we don't handle her until Friday and then attempt a feed? Have you ever had a corn refuse a second shot at the same rat/mouse? Do your guys stick to the warm side before a shed? I don't want to stress her out by trying to feed her while she's going into shed. She definitely hasn't been blue since we got her.

Thanks for all the help. The learning curve is steep!

 

[axis1]

Good! How you doin Axis1? lol. I have the same concerns with feeding live rats. I was only going to try it once or twice until I have an idea of what kind of eater she is and then start switching things up, hopefully to F/T. I've even taken the temp (using my temp gun) of the rat so when I switch I can get the F/T to the same temp.

In the meantime, do you think we'd have a better chance with a successful first meal if we don't handle her until Friday and then attempt a feed? Have you ever had a corn refuse a second shot at the same rat/mouse? Do your guys stick to the warm side before a shed? I don't want to stress her out by trying to feed her while she's going into shed. She definitely hasn't been blue since we got her.

Thanks for all the help. The learning curve is steep!

Hi zakdat! How ya been?

First of all, the history you gave of Pancake seems to come from its previous owner, I think. If that's true, then the part where you stated that Pancake regurgitated sounds as if it was in the process of eating a f/t'd rat and spit it out as opposed to regurging a rodent that was partially digested. If so, that's a HUGE difference and could have had to do with the size and temps of the rodent itself. Since Pancake is an adult snake and is a new environment, you should let him get used to his new environment for about five days to a week without handling at all. Pancake will decide where to go prior to a shed or at anytime at all, as long as he has the option of a temperature gradient, appropriately from around 70 to 85, with hides on both sides and the appropriate substrate where he can also choose to burrow if he needs to. All snakes are different and will develop their own little quirks dependent upon their personality - or as per a recent thread and as daddio taught me: it's ANIMALITY! :shrugs: Don't look at ME, it's a REAL WORD! I looked it up!! LOL! It's a wonder it's not used more often!

Back to Pancake, as long as you provide what he needs, he should be fine! My point is, if it's a new environment, let him get adapted for a few days before trying to feed him and then give him a few days before handling (I give my adults 3 days but they should be good after 48 hours, but a nervous snake may have an accident - just sayin'.).

There should be no reason Pancake can't be switched to f/t'd rodents. Just don't give him a HUGE one and defrost it appropriately before warming (I place my rodents in a ziplock and submerge them in very warm water for about 10 minutes and then serve with tongs to my little sneaky ones).

Lemme know what happens and if you have any other concerns.

 

[zakdat]

Awesome! Thanks so much. I'll keep you posted. Oh, and she hasn't been hanging out in her warm hide - she's actually burrowed down behind it underneath some leaves I put there. Lol. She thinks she's so sneaky.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

Let me ask you this, how long after eating does she usually poop?

 

[zakdat]

I was told one week after she has fed.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y330-U05 using Tapatalk

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

that doesn't sound right to me. Most corn snakes poop about 2 to 4 days after eating.

An occasional miss may be ok, but if my snake went a week without pooping I'd be a little concerned.

Couple that with the fact that your snake spat up its last meal, and I'm not trying to be annoying or alarming, but something about your whole story just doesn't sound right to me.

<Links below, discussions on corn snake poop>
http://www.thecornsnake.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19650
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090303075514AA6iEbo

 

[Lyreiania]

I have to agree with Karl....my own snakes have always seemed to poop 2-4, maybe 5 days at most after a feed. I did not see, what is the temperature in Pancake's cage? Maybe her metabolism is a bit slow as she is a bit cold?

 

[Lyreiania]

One other thing....I just read she buries herself under some "leaves you put out there"? From where did you get the leaves? If they were gotten from the outside, could be a chance they may have worms or other parasites?

 

[zakdat]

Her temps have been on the hot side actually - I moved my thermostat probe and the digital thermometer probe and measured everything with my infrared temp gun. I'm sitting at a range of 82-86 now. Before she tended to stick to her cold side during the day (which could have slowed her metabolism) but I could see by the tracks she left in her substrate that she does travel the entire cage at night. Now she's both hot and cold during the day. I also saw her out and exploring her cage. I tried her with the same rat again, and still she was not impressed. Her previous owner did tell me that she has done that in the past - decided she just didn't like the smell of a particular rat. I've since euthanized the rat and we'll try with a different one, probably tomorrow. I am also going to try for a small ASF rather than a medium since she hasn't eaten for 4 weeks or so at this point. She has been showing more hunger signs - out a bit more, more rapidly scenting the air.

No worries about the leaves - they're silk exoterra ones. At this point I'm not so worried about when she'll poop - I'm more concerned with getting her to eat. I'm hoping that no handling and a new rat tomorrow will do the trick. Then I'll be able to see what her cycle is with the new temps. I'll try bathing her 4 days after she's eaten and see if I can get a bowel movement in a more timely manner.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I'm still new at this and researching like mad, but also trying to have the patience to not push Pancake too hard or change anything too quickly and have all my efforts backfire. As soon as I've gotten a few meals in her, I'm going to try to switch her to pre-killed and then frozen/thawed asf rats.

 

[zakdat]

I tried to feed Pancake again with a different medium ASF this time - still no eating. Her temps have been nice and steady - and I've found that she's using both hot and cold hides now. I've also found tunnels from where she has burrowed in the aspen bedding.

At this point I think I might be stressing her out too much with too much attention. I'm used to fussing over my animals, especially when they're new to me - frequent water changes, temp checks. This Monday she'll have gone 5 weeks since her last meal, and I've had her for three of those. She doesn't appear to be losing weight - still a nice loaf shape. I think my game plan will be to do the absolute minimal with her - trust my digital thermometer, go in to change the water daily, but that's it - for the next week. And then offer her a large mouse rather than her usual medium ASF. Or should I go for the small ASF? Thoughts?

 

[axis1]

. . . I think my game plan will be to do the absolute minimal with her - trust my digital thermometer, go in to change the water daily, but that's it - for the next week. And then offer her a large mouse rather than her usual medium ASF. Or should I go for the small ASF? Thoughts?

Hi zakdat! How ya been?

Sounds like a plan - to do minimal with her and trust your husbandry, so long as the temps you report are accurate. I would go with the last sized-rodent she consumed, if it was you who gave it to her (pardon my ignorance, or lack of intact synapses, whichever is responsible for me not remembering in this particular case).

Regardless, five (5) weeks of not eating is not the end of the world for a healthy cornsnake. She should be just fine!

:my2cents_01:

 

[o.So_Blu.o]

It could be seasonal. Corn snakes brumate during the winter but I don't know when they start. Brumation is usually triggered by lowering temps but can be triggered by changing of the length of sunlight outside.

She could be stressed.

She could also be gravid. Even if they're not fertilized. Maybe hormones.

She could also just not be hungry.

Corn snakes naturally don't eat much if not at all for 3 month periods. Hope that makes you feel better. You could also take her to a vet if it's bugging you. They may ask that you assist feed her. (Not force feed. You basically push a dead mouse half way into her mouth carefully then she will do the rest.)

 

[o.So_Blu.o]

It could be seasonal. Corn snakes brumate during the winter but I don't know when they start. Brumation is usually triggered by lowering temps but can be triggered by changing of the length of sunlight outside.

She could be stressed.

She could also be gravid. Even if they're not fertilized. Maybe hormones.

She could also just not be hungry.

Corn snakes naturally don't eat much if not at all for 3 month periods. Hope that makes you feel better. You could also take her to a vet if it's bugging you. They may ask that you assist feed her. (Not force feed. You basically push a dead mouse half way into her mouth carefully then she will do the rest.)

For the record, I'd say I'm pretty new to corn snakes myself I only have juveniles ATM. But I have friends who own snakes that give me advice and I've read a ton of stuff. Not trying to be a know it all, by all means. But at least I try.

 

[zakdat]

Good news everyone. Pancake shed on Monday and ate a large mouse on Tuesday. Feeding issues resolved! I'm going to try an ASF on this coming Tuesday, and then we'll go back to her regular schedule of every two weeks. And her new color is beautiful! I'll have to take some new pictures soon.