Buf ore Buff from slangenbroed himself

[slangenbroed]

Hello people first off all i read 21 pages!!!! phoe phoe al lot from the gene and a lot off things that has nothing to do with this hobby.
I,am a hobby breeder who think he has something, and that can happen all over the world its something and i as person do not nowing what it exacly is, is it something that goes with caramel, is it a type b is it something like ulta i don't now.The one thing i now is , it's there.
And there must be worked with it to see what it is, but i am allone in this.
I ask some people to help, but until now there is one person who want to help, and he got one buff and one orange from me. ( the only two animals that left the room , the rest i still have and wil tested )
About the testings the are people who say this and other who say something else ect. ect.I was planning do do some testings as ask, but i have to work with living animals and they do not always do what you want that they do.
I did the best i could do at that moment with the animals i had one that moment.And some thing i did on my own feeling, maybee becouse some people did attact me over and over. HYbrids , het for and that kind off stuff.
I think i prove that it is something different, there are several breedings done that let see that there is something going one here.And i don,t agree fully with the breeding to pure caramel, but i did it in 2009 ( Butter golddust)
I will explane, the outcome wil always be het caramel, and that is what people say that they are !!!!!!
I hope that now at this moment people will help to solve the thing, and maybee there are people who will help now, and as i alway told i am open for this, i am not a money breeder but a hobby breeder.
I must finisch now, but wil come back but i wil give you some details and pics.

Greatings

Jan

 

[slangenbroed]

one more pic

the limmid is 5 i see

 

[slangenbroed]

still one to go

i mist one sorry

 

[carnivorouszoo]

I wish I could help with breeding trials, but I am in the US and know nothing about getting animals from another country or sending animals that you could use in your trials. I will keep watching anything you do

 

[diamondlil]

It must be frustrating, because there's just so many caramels in there that trying to separate out the 'buf' is going to be a nightmare.

 

[tom e]

Since buf is dominant or at least co-dominant, I don't think it would be that hard. You need some snakes that are def NOT het for caramel to put to a buf. Anything that looks remotely caramelly in that cross must be buf right?

What are the 3 in the last pic by the way? From darkest to lightest?

 

[diamondlil]

Since buf is dominant or at least co-dominant, I don't think it would be that hard. You need some snakes that are def NOT het for caramel to put to a buf. Anything that looks remotely caramelly in that cross must be buf right?

What are the 3 in the last pic by the way? From darkest to lightest?

But it seems all of the buff and orange snakes are at least poss het caramel, so how will any totally non-caramels be produced? With caramel being recessive, unless the original buff snake can be bred to a proven non-het caramel there's always the possibility of caramel skewing results?

 

[tom e]

Well if I understand correctly caramel may be IN the results as amel is in ultramel. But I agree. Everyone keeps saying 'Put it to a caramel!' I don't see that that would answer anything new. I'm with you in that the new answers will come from getting it as far away from caramel as possible!

Maybe testing some of those 'other' snakes bred to bufs already to a caramel morph to see that they are or are not het for caramel themselves? In that way you may find out that it's already been done.

 

[TandJ]

He tossed it in with a phantom Tom... Apparently got Buffs out of the deal..

I am not sure what the pictures are supposed to be showing...


I see a mixed clutch of babies, with no indicator of what clutch it was from.. Believe me, I am not here trying to pick on Jan, but I really should have taken a few pictures ( I actually may have, but when I was forced to reformat, I lost about 5 gigs of pictures... grumbles ) of a couple of my clutches that appeared to have had a similair look, I am not saying or even suggesting that I hatched buf's, muffs or a kick in the pants.. I seen a whole bunch of breeding that Jan did that I could duplicate if I had the time, space or gumption to do it...

Anyone willing to take a batch of babies out of the egg to raise and grow? *lol* ( um it should be noted, take, meaning as in purchase, not for free *lol* )

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[tom e]

He tossed it in with a phantom Tom... Apparently got Buffs out of the deal..

Yep and several others.. I'm convinced, but then someone will ask "Was the phantom het caramel? How do you know?" :nyah:
If one of the things unknown is whether it's an alelle to caramel, that's the way to find out isn't it? Prove the phantom is not het for caramel?

 

[TandJ]

Yep and several others.. I'm convinced, but then someone will ask "Was the phantom het caramel? How do you know?" :nyah:
If one of the things unknown is whether it's an alelle to caramel, that's the way to find out isn't it? Prove the phantom is not het for caramel?

Tell you what Tom. I sure well know I have to be rather selective on certain breedings, in case some stupid stuff shows up thats unexplained.. Right now, I wish I knew that my phantom was het for amel.. *lol* Because that would be really intresting...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Susan]

Your results in chart form is much easier to understand and these photos in combination with those I saw on your website, show a definite difference in the appearance of the oranges. It's a little more difficult to see the difference in the bufs, but at least one photo on your website convinced me of a difference as a hatchling. I've raised enough caramels and amels het caramel to state that the oranges do look different as hatchlings as at that age. The "het caramel" influence in coloration is an increase in yellow that becomes apparent as the snake ages and not present right out of the egg and the oranges show it right away.

Congratulations Jan! You have another initial skeptic convinced!

This would take a great deal of you time to document, but photos of each of the individual hatchlings (or a sampling of each morph in a clutch) and a progression of each one (you don't have to go crazy with that, every 3-6 months would work) might help to convince those still in doubt.

 

[TandJ]

This came out of a clutch of mine in 08... These are all clutchmates...

Top two in the pic are "normal" looking amels..

The two on the bottom, one is an ultramel and one looks like creamsicle, there is no caramel involved in these as far as I know.. Again, these are from the same clutch... Whats the variable to make red amels and orange looking amels in the same clutch? Some of these guys were in the blue, and that should be very obvious..

 

[paulh]

Well if I understand correctly caramel may be IN the results as amel is in ultramel. But I agree. Everyone keeps saying 'Put it to a caramel!' I don't see that that would answer anything new. I'm with you in that the new answers will come from getting it as far away from caramel as possible!

I agree that most bufs should not be bred to caramels. However, I would like to see SOME bufs bred to caramels.

The question is, are buf and caramel different mutant versions of the same normal gene? If so, they have the same location in the chromosomes. Or are buf and caramel mutant versions of different normal genes, with different locations in the chromosomes? This is one of the questions that needs to be answered.

If buf and caramel have the same location in the chromosomes:
buf//caramel = one buf gene paired with a caramel gene
caramel//caramel = two caramel mutant genes produces a caramel corn snake.
buf//caramel X caramel//caramel -->
1/2 buf//caramel
1/2 caramel//caramel

If buf and caramel have different locations in the chromosomes:
normal//normal = two copies of the normal version of the buf gene.
buf//normal = one buf gene paired with a normal gene
normal//caramel = one normal gene paired with a caramel mutant gene = het caramel
caramel//caramel = two caramel mutant genes (produces a caramel corn snake).

buf//normal normal//caramel X normal//normal caramel//caramel -->
1/4 normal//normal normal//caramel = het caramel (looks normal)
1/4 normal//normal caramel//caramel = caramel
1/4 buf//normal normal//caramel = buf
1/4 buf//normal caramel//caramel = buf and caramel

If buf and caramel can be proven to have different locations in the chromosomes, it would help convince doubters that buf really is something new.

Unfortunately, I am in the same circumstances as CarnivorousZoo.

Best of luck.

 

[slangenbroed]

Hello people first off all i read 21 pages!!!! phoe phoe al lot from the gene and a lot off things that has nothing to do with this hobby.
I,am a hobby breeder who think he has something, and that can happen all over the world its something and i as person do not nowing what it exacly is, is it something that goes with caramel, is it a type b is it something like ulta i don't now.The one thing i now is , it's there.
And there must be worked with it to see what it is, but i am allone in this.
I ask some people to help, but until now there is one person who want to help, and he got one buff and one orange from me. ( the only two animals that left the room , the rest i still have and wil tested )
About the testings the are people who say this and other who say something else ect. ect.I was planning do do some testings as ask, but i have to work with living animals and they do not always do what you want that they do.
I did the best i could do at that moment with the animals i had one that moment.And some thing i did on my own feeling, maybee becouse some people did attact me over and over. HYbrids , het for and that kind off stuff.
I think i prove that it is something different, there are several breedings done that let see that there is something going one here.And i don,t agree fully with the breeding to pure caramel, but i did it in 2009 ( Butter golddust)
I will explane, the outcome wil always be het caramel, and that is what people say that they are !!!!!!
I hope that now at this moment people will help to solve the thing, and maybee there are people who will help now, and as i alway told i am open for this, i am not a money breeder but a hobby breeder.
I must finisch now, but wil come back but i wil give you some details and pics.

Greatings

Jan

Sorry first picture is a butter het motley a orange and a amel ( the last one is from the bred lavender het amel x orange )
second pic is clutch from Orange het lavender x ultramel het lavender
in it ultramel lavender- opal-ultramel- amel-orange and i think a ultraorange ( ultramel buf ) from him a picture to and i have theese from this clutch and from the clutch Golddust x orange. last pic normal caramel and buff.

 

[diamondlil]

I'm really sorry to ask this, but are there any buf at all that are not het caramel? I'd really like to see the original pair if you still have them.

 

[slangenbroed]

I'm really sorry to ask this, but are there any buf at all that are not het caramel? I'd really like to see the original pair if you still have them.

Yes there are buf and oranges not het caramel, but the original female i don't have her becouse she past away las year.But i have the pics one on my site www.slangenbroed.nl the other i must looking for they are not on this computer

 

[slangenbroed]

I'm really sorry to ask this, but are there any buf at all that are not het caramel? I'd really like to see the original pair if you still have them.

I find them at this computer !!!!!!
Its the first animal grandma the darker one with 2 douchters the F1 genaration

 

[diamondlil]

That's wonderful to see! (Sorry you lost the original)