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Buf v.s Toffee

S

slangenbroed

New member
i had the chance to see Toffee for the first time in live, so i took a buf from my stock, and the camara!
My buf is from Buf het lavender-amel-anery x Buf het amel.
The Toffee is from Auratum het blood-anery-stripe x Normal ( from oketee line )
When i saw the Toffee, i thought, ok this is a Toffee, i was not impressed, i was expecting something else.
There are simularities with Buf and Toffee, when i look into my stock with other buf's, from other lines.
I think the ancestors from theese animals gave a different look in the phenotype.I hope to find out, if its the same.
Its maybee not the best pic to compare, but the only one i have.
 

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Personally I think both those are beautiful.

I don't know very much about the buff & toffee gene, but it's interesting to see different pics of them.

Last season I decided at the last mintue to pair up one of my Kisatchie females with a striped butter (really want to breed some Chocolate Stripes!). I was rather surprised when the eggs finally hatched, and all the babies looked simalar to Caramels. I suspect this is because the Kisatchie colouring is "polygenic" (as apposed to dominant)

I didn't intend to go off topic. It's just that after seeing these babies, I often find myself wondering if there is any kisatchie blood involved in some of these buffs / toffees.

Here are some pics of the babies from the Kisatchie x striped butter clutch:
 

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Tearak said:
Personally I think both those are beautiful.

I don't know very much about the buff & toffee gene, but it's interesting to see different pics of them.

Last season I decided at the last mintue to pair up one of my Kisatchie females with a striped butter (really want to breed some Chocolate Stripes!). I was rather surprised when the eggs finally hatched, and all the babies looked simalar to Caramels. I suspect this is because the Kisatchie colouring is "polygenic" (as apposed to dominant)

I didn't intend to go off topic. It's just that after seeing these babies, I often find myself wondering if there is any kisatchie blood involved in some of these buffs / toffees.

Here are some pics of the babies from the Kisatchie x striped butter clutch:
Click to expand...
In the buf line there is no emory involved, i bred this line now for 10 years.
Its not a hybrid, its pure corn.
 
The buffs and toffees have drastically different phenotypes as adults. They are most decidedly NOT the same gene.
 
Shiari said:
The buffs and toffees have drastically different phenotypes as adults. They are most decidedly NOT the same gene.
Click to expand...

Based onn the phenotype as adults, is not correct.
1.How many dominant treads are there
Buf---- Tesserra------Toffee
Buf from Holland
Tesserra From the states
Toffee from germany
Buf and Toffee look the same as hatchling , and have the same marks to see wat is the gene and what is a normal one.Breeding from me from the last 7 years, breedings from charles Pritzel and the breedings from, Thorsten.
2.Buf and Toffee are born in 150 km from each other, and i think the origan could be the same .
3. I saw almost all the bufs there are, and from different lines, and there are to much simularities, in the phenotype there is the different.
But take a animal from a oketee line and a miami line, ore one from a lavender and one from a caramel line the phenotypes are different, that is what happens here.
4.I saw pics from breedings into other colours, amel- ultramel, anery, and now the phenotypes are almost the same !!!!

Breedings in the future will bring more light into this, but to say (They are most decidedly NOT the same gene ) ??????????
And i wanted to share this , becouse this is the first time that it was posible to take a pic together, not the best as i said before, but i had one buf and one toffee to compare.

Greatings

Jan
 
Thanks everyone. Unfortunately here in SA there are no buff genes (certainly not that I know of), so I don't have any personal experience with them whatsoever. In retrospect, I realise I was a bit out of line making that comment (especially since I'm unfamiliar with the gene).

Looking forward to learning more about these new genes in the future.
 
Shiari said:
The buffs and toffees have drastically different phenotypes as adults. They are most decidedly NOT the same gene.
Click to expand...

I don't believe you have enough evidence or experience to make this statement.
You might want to go argue with a few others, such as Don, who believe they are most likely the same gene; just with different influences in the lineages.
It's one thing to debate, but another to make blatant statements when there's clearly not been enough research or comparisons to do so.
 
Okay, let me re-phrase:

Based on the animals currently presented, those specimens available look very very different from each other.

Buff looks like a "het caramel", or even more traditional caramel, though it isn't, as an adult based on the adults seen. This was part of the issues with buff. It is a caramel 'mimic' based on what has been presented.

Toffee as adults have a very interesting brick color to the saddles, and orange-brown ground color. Different colors entirely from the buffs.
 
I wrote this on a other forum, but its not wrong to place it here and get opinions.
To the testbreeding
Buf and Toffee are both dominant
The hatchlings look the same , only as adult ore subadult there comes the different,and that becouse of the breedinglines. I think it could be the same, based on what i saw.The testbreeding wil gave us
1. We get two phenotypes ( Normal and the gene )( the gene wil be a merge from the penotypes buf and toffee
2. We get Four phenotypes ( Normal- Buf-Toffee and Buftoffee )( Buf and Toffe make something new but still there must be Buf and Toffee)


1. Its the same
2. Its not the same

I vote for 1.
50% change but i go for 90 %

But as a breeder i hope on 2. becouse there is nothing wrong with a new gene , it give us a hole new range of options.

There are other possibilities, but that goes deep.
Becouse of the dominant gene's , it could be that one is stronger than the other.

But there is one thing, we must wait until 2013, becouse i cant get a Toffee adult, if i get that than we now it next year.I reserved two adult bufs for testbreeding , but get now respons from the Toffee breeders yet.

Greatings

Jan
 
I will have to search for more examples of buf and toffee, but based solely upon the photos provided in the OP's first post, I have to agree with Megan and say that the 2 hatchlings look entirely different from each other and I would NOT call them the same gene. And IMO, the one hatchling doesn't look like anything other than a normal in the first photo, and the different coloration of it in the second photo is caused by an over-all yellowing of the entire image. :shrugs:
 
slangenbroed said:
To the testbreeding
Buf and Toffee are both dominant
The hatchlings look the same , only as adult ore subadult there comes the different,and that becouse of the breedinglines.
Click to expand...

No, the hatchlings do NOT look the same. They, in fact, are very different looking from each other.
 
Susan said:
I will have to search for more examples of buf and toffee, but based solely upon the photos provided in the OP's first post, I have to agree with Megan and say that the 2 hatchlings look entirely different from each other and I would NOT call them the same gene. And IMO, the one hatchling doesn't look like anything other than a normal in the first photo, and the different coloration of it in the second photo is caused by an over-all yellowing of the entire image. :shrugs:
Click to expand...

I've seen them live
The normal that you see is the toffee
and second i didn't want to do someting about the pictures, and let them origenal.
But i wil let you see pictures from dif breedings
1. the breedings from thorsten this year , and this one is shopt by him ore a bad camara
2. From me not shopt
3. From me shopt
4. from 2011 not shopt
and i have more
 

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Hi!

I don't even have the program photoshop on my computer. On the other hand I could not used it because I a tecnic noob.

Pix after second shed. Taken today.

yfmxtggx.jpg
 
slangenbroed said:
I've seen them live
The normal that you see is the toffee
and second i didn't want to do someting about the pictures, and let them origenal.
But i wil let you see pictures from dif breedings
1. the breedings from thorsten this year , and this one is shopt by him ore a bad camara
2. From me not shopt
3. From me shopt
4. from 2011 not shopt
and i have more
Click to expand...

I still see a buf and a normal. Plenty of difference between these hatchlings.

ThorstenG said:
Hi!

I don't even have the program photoshop on my computer. On the other hand I could not used it because I a tecnic noob.

Pix after second shed. Taken today.

yfmxtggx.jpg
Click to expand...

Again, I see plenty of difference and the one (toffee?) looks like a normal to me.

ThorstenG said:
Hi!

This pair Jan got from me over a ghostbuyer. This is poor enough... http://s7.directupload.net/images/110826/gjnng6k2.jpg

gjnng6k2.jpg


5ywnq92i.jpg
Click to expand...

These hatchlings do look very similar and I would not hesitate to call them the same morph, but which one(s) are they supposed to be?

ThorstenG said:
Normal Blood vs. Toffee Blood out of the same clutch.

rvxslewp.jpg
Click to expand...

Again, these look like they are the same morph to me as I see no difference except what I would normally see between clutchmates.

So far, I'm just not getting toffee as being anything except normal. It doesn't look like buf and doesn't look like Kastanie. :shrugs:

Any adult photos?
 
Whatever the case may be, I love the look of both (but especially the Toffee) as they mature.
 
I agee with Megan and Susan, they don't look the same at all. I love the look of the adult Toffees!
 
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