Derogatory trolling and bitch slapping the membership

[Rich Z]

This issue was actually brought to a head within another thread on this site (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95811), so rather than have this continue to be addressed and disrupt that thread, I have brought those quotes HERE for any such discussion to continue.

To summarize, i am not inclined to allow people to act in a trolling and disruptive manner by making derogatory slurs at this site in general and/or basically bitch slap the rest of the membership all throughout this site. Any members engaging in that sort of activity outside of this particular forum will be considered as trolling and generally only interested in causing disruption and contention. In such cases, those people acting in that manner will be regarded as being hostile to the well being of this site, and the enjoyment of everyone else using this site. In that light, they will be treated as such. Depending on the severity, nature, and duration of such activities by the member(s), and the attitude and interpretation of the mod or myself, sanctions will range from a simple statement in the relevant thread to cease and desist, up to an immediate permanent ban being imposed.

As stated below in a quote, in the past many people have complained that such activities were not handled or rectified by management of this site, yet when steps ARE made, people will still complain about the other perspective of this sort of issue. Sorry, there is no way to please everyone, nor will there be any attempt to do so.

So anyway, if there is a desire for any such discussion along these lines, THIS is the place for that to take place, please.

And btw, this is not carte blanche for people to get antagonistic, abusive, and downright hurtful. I expect the discussion to remain civil and professional.

Wow this is really interesting!

At first the entire Buff thing didn't interest me the slightest bit. That together with Jan having difficulties expressing himself in the right terms made me even less interested, i even rejected the whole new-gene thing from the beginning.

Then i started following his threads and tried to understand it.
He letterly bred it to EVERY gene he had in stock. Among those were plenty animals that had the caramel gene and animals that didnt have that.

Over and over he got the same on-and-off results, results of a co-dominant trait. 50% Buff every breeding.

He got that same effect from breeding F1's to eachother and to known Buffs.

But seriously, the gene itself is not the issue here..

From the start there has been problems which i will sum up here.

- A dutch guy comes out of nowhere, with a bad english accent in writing.

- This dutch guy claims to have found a new gene

- Even worse, he has given it a name! What was he thinking!

- Then more bad communication, no one really understands what he is
saying, except for some other non-americans.

- He starts breeding it to ALL genes he has in stock, also the favored homozygous caramel animals, which was not a good thing because they were homo amel too and therefore not homo caramel enough.

- He makes a table of breedings and results which no one understands, but which concludes all neccessary to find out its a dominant trait.

- Finally one of the persons who DOES understand genetics and how the story went decided to put it in HIS book of genetics and discovered traits.

I guess that when Don, Rob or Jeff had discovered and published this gene it would have been a totally different story.

When KJUN brought out the Tessera trait last year EVERYBODY was drooling over that, i'd like to see some inside info about that one really bad now..
Or whatabout diluted.. or terrazzo.. or coral..

Jan did everything he could to test the animals and gave everyone that was interested ALL his data, which cannot be said of most breeders.

I really wonder what all of you who disagreed with Jan would have done to test what was discovered..

Anyway, this thread has become exactly the reason why i dont come here anymore, it's all about status and wether you like or dislike people, really pathetic and so not how things should work in our hobby.

I will probably get a lot of criticism, but frankly i dont give a .
Things are what they are, even if it's determined or revealed by people that are not popular among the masses.

Arjan

Cool of you to stop by just to take a jab at this site. Here, let me help you with your resolve not to come back here....

I don't like to see a person who I like and respect getting banned over this that's for sure. Over the years Arjan has contributed some great photos and posts to this site and I think outright banning was a bit harsh.
There's two things going on here, the actual morph discussion and the lingering bad feelings people have over stuff that should be water under the bridge by now. Is it really THAT hard to bury the hatchet?
As for Buf, I read the link, it kinda does make sense, at the same time if I was in Slang's shoes I would probably just try to get a straight caramel to breed to since that's what everyone is demanding and that seems to be the only way to convince everybody.

totally agree with that......................:awcrap:

:shrugs: me too :shrugs:

I'm sure you read his statements in this thread. That sort of bitch slapping of this site and the membership was acceptable to you?

I'm sorry if some feel that my getting irritated at someone who thinks they can walk in my front door, squat in the living room and take a dump in the middle of the floor is harsh. Sorry, but I am not inclined to extend them the privilege to continue to do that here.

ok, lets summarize this.

don't say anything against anyone of this forum. critism is theoretical allowed, but not practical. If someone voices public critism he will be banned.

sorry, but this seems to be normal when I read your statements.
I know Arjan pretty good and I know that he's a VERY GOOD guy, when he voices critism he has his reasons to do this. I really wonder why you handle this the easy way instead of looking for the dialog....and I know I'm not the only one who's thinking this!

my 2 cents

Sorry, but I have to agree with Jim. There was no need to overreact this way :shrugs:

Actually, I think Rich is just sick and tired of people coming here and then saying "This site sucks so much and I hate it here." At least we're not asked to avoid conflict, threads do not disappear into thin air and are very rarely locked. You probably couldn't even _have_ this debate elsewhere.

Maybe it would be a better way to think about the reasons, instead of acting that more and more people think the same way!

In case you have missed it, there is a forum on this site called "Discussions about this site" -> http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6. Go ahead and take a WILD guess concerning why I put a forum of that nature on this site..... oke:

I will assume anyone SERIOUSLY interested in engaging in a dialog about the state of this site and the membership participation will do so in THAT forum. Anyone pissing and moaning elsewhere will be considered as simply trolling and attempting to cause disruption throughout this site, and not seriously interested in making constructive steps to make the situation better. They will, therefore, be treated as such.

Seems to me people have complained in the past about trolling of this nature that went unchecked, and yet when it IS checked, some others will complain as well ABOUT the "checking". Well, sorry about that, but it's just an imperfect world we live in, but I reserve the right to try to make THIS particular corner of that world the best that I can. I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone will ever find a statement to the effect that I expect anything I do will ever please absolutely EVERYONE involved.

But if by chance you do find that perfect message board in that perfect world, please send us a postcard...........

 

[wade]

I have to admit it Rich, I wondered if I would be banned for being critical yesterday. I enjoy this site and spend way too much time here. I would really be disappointed if I felt like I had to censer what I thought for fear of offending anyone.

 

[chuk_138]

I am somewhat new to this site, so please excuse me if my opinion seems a bit skewed. Although the statement that initiated this particular thread seemed antagonistic, I couldn't imagine it would have caused a ban of any member. Maybe there is some underlying circumstance I'm not aware of. All I gathered is the members from across the pond are on one side of the topic and everyone here in the states seems to be on the other. I love an intelligent discussion as much as the next person, and this site always has something interesting for me to read about my favorite hobby. But as wade mentioned, I feel like if I must watch everything I write in any reply. The unfortunate downside to writing is that emotions aren't expressed in text without punctuation. But then again, some people don't know when to shut up.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

I have to agree with Nanci's post. On some "other" sites, discussions such as this would not even be allowed to happen. If everyone is not a cookie cutter, happy go lucky, agree with everything everyone else posts - then you are not welcome there. At least here we can mostly speak our mind and agree to disagree on certain items and issues.
I belong to other sites and quite frankly, I find this to be the most honest, open and friendly site to belong to - and it has nothing to do with being part of an "in crowd". From the start, before I knew a single person here, I was welcomed, questions and all. This is still my favorite site to visit for cornsnake related info and for the companionship of some of the best people I know.

 

[LBoz]

Exactly, Katie! "Some" forums would never tolerate the crap that Rich lets slide. Mine included. And I don't just ban that user name so they can come back with another account and stir the crap even more, I ban the IP as well. Why should Rich pay his server every month just to have someone come here and tell him how much his place sux? It's ridiculous. People have every right to object to a subject, which happens pretty much on a daily basis. I don't know who the "in" crowd is. You get what you sow here. If you come in with a good attitude and a true desire to learn what's best for your animals, you're given respect in return. Come in and start dogging everything and everyone, why would you expect NOT to be shown the door?

 

[bitsy]

All I gathered is the members from across the pond are on one side of the topic and everyone here in the states seems to be on the other.

I don't think that's the case at all.

Buf first emerged in Europe and has now crossed to the US where others are breeding. I believe there are sceptics and supporters in both areas.

 

[wade]

Katie and Lori, I would agree with both of you to a point. Understand that I am choosing my words carefully and I am replying to your comments with great trepidation. What I saw was a person was involved in a debate and choose the wrong side. He did in fact criticize this site but I did not feel it was harsh or out of line. Certainly no more than I have seen dozens of others do. But he got banned just the same.

You are right, we are allowed lots of freedom here and we should be happy for what we have. I like this site. You all know how much time I spend here. I would be seriously bummed if I were banned for disagreeing with Rich. I seriously mean that Rich. I guess we all set our goals differently. At least we can say we are better than Kingsnake.com.

 

[Lucille]

if I were banned for disagreeing with Rich.

I've never seen that happen. I don't think that would happen. I've disagreed with Rich and it never crossed my mind that I'd be banned for it. I don't think Rich minds at all if people disagree with him, in fact when you look at the times that he has had time to join conversations, he seems to enjoy debating with those who disagree with his point of view sometimes especially if they have their ducks in a row.
There's a palpable distance between disagreeing, and derogatory trolling and bitch slapping.

 

[Nanci]

What I saw was a person was involved in a debate and choose the wrong side. He did in fact criticize this site but I did not feel it was harsh or out of line. Certainly no more than I have seen dozens of others do. But he got banned just the same.

No, he didn't just criticize the site, he bashed the members by saying we were pathetic and implied that whether "we" liked or disliked someone influenced whether we accepted their findings or not. And said he didn't give a ______ (something) and this was why he didn't come here anymore.

So then- don't come here! If you don't have something positive to contribute.

I have always respected Arjan although I don't know him personally, and found his contributions here to be positive, and actually hadn't noticed he was boycotting us, so I really don't know where that all came out of. Defending his good friend Jan, I guess.

Why _should_ someone be allowed to come here, vent about how much they hate it here, and lump everyone all together as, what, cliquish? I kind of resent that! Well, if there _is_ a popular crowd, an _in_ group with all the secret cool new genes, I'm not in it, but the people developing everything are pretty above-board as far as I can tell, and every step of proving out any new gene is clearly explained so we can all follow it. And any time I've been curious about new developments and asked people who were working with them, they've been more than happy to provide information, not secretive and superior.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I'm sure you read his statements in this thread. That sort of bitch slapping of this site and the membership was acceptable to you?

I'm sorry if some feel that my getting irritated at someone who thinks they can walk in my front door, squat in the living room and take a dump in the middle of the floor is harsh. Sorry, but I am not inclined to extend them the privilege to continue to do that here.

Rich I saw your point but I thought of your reaction/punishment as too heavy (like in the recent beer commercial... too heavy/ too light)
I have seen you give obvious trolls more chances. And I did personally think Arjan has made some good posts in the past. In particular I remember asking him to come post pics of his bloodred motleys because of another thread where we were talking about those and he was very obliging.
No site is perfect. Is everyone who has any kind of criticism, constructive or otherwise, going to be banned? Am I going to be banned if I don't say how perfect cs.com is? Well it's not, and no place really is.

 

[wade]

Nanci, I am not going to argue this point with you, or anyone else. I was simply stating what I felt. You are absolutely correct, he did criticize this site and it's membership. Being a member I did not feel overly hurt by it. I his comments are grounds for banning then so be it.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Wade kind of summed up the way I feel in post #7. Arjan did not say anything I haven't seen others kinda say before and not get banned. And I've made critical posts here too.

 

[Nanci]

But the difference is you guys don't come here and say we all suck and this is why you hate it here and the other place is so much better. When you both have issues with anyone or just us all in general, I, at least, feel like you are not disassociating yourselves from us, the rest of the site. It's like getting in a fight with a family member- we're still family. No matter what.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

I have never had a problem with Arjan. I also always believed his input was insightful and helpful in the past. I don't know what set him off this time. I don't know if I personally agree with the banning or not, but it isn't my call to make. It does seem that a lot of it (maybe not just in this particular case) has to do with the mentality of this site vs. that site. Mine is better than yours kind of attitude. Which is childish. I don't see members on this site bashing the other site, talking about their members like was done here. Yet, they promote themselves as being better than us. I don't see our people going over there and talking down about that site or the people on it or how they choose to run discussions or the site itself.
I am a member over there as well. I don't visit often because I prefer this place much more. But I do stop over occasionally just to check in and see how certain people are doing or read up on new developments. SO I am not stating the above with no knowledge of that other place.

 

[wade]

It does seem that a lot of it (maybe not just in this particular case) has to do with the mentality of this site vs. that site. Mine is better than yours kind of attitude. Which is childish. I don't see members on this site bashing the other site, talking about their members like was done here. Yet, they promote themselves as being better than us. I don't see our people going over there and talking down about that site or the people on it or how they choose to run discussions or the site itself.
I am a member over there as well. I don't visit often because I prefer this place much more. But I do stop over occasionally just to check in and see how certain people are doing or read up on new developments. SO I am not stating the above with no knowledge of that other place.

Katie, you need to read the thread. It has nothing to do with this site or that site.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

Anyway, this thread has become exactly the reason why i dont come here anymore, it's all about status and wether you like or dislike people, really pathetic and so not how things should work in our hobby.

This - and Russell's posts about this is why he doesn't come "here" anymore - both pretty much state that. We all know where else they hang out....

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Is it so bad that some people like it "over there"? In fact I see A LOT of the same usernames there as here. It is possible to like both sites. I do for different reasons. I have been on cs.com for several years and I feel like most of the friends I have in the corn snake world frequent this site. I also like the general layout here a lot better (the way that posts are displayed and so forth). There are things I don't like about here.
I like the source too. I see a lot more threads about morphs and corn snake information there as far as percent of total threads than here. It gives me a sense of people that are really into the hobby and not just there because their buddies hang out there. Both are good in their own way. I think if it's a corn snake site then hobbyists that are serious about the hobby (Both Russell and Arjan come to mind) should be welcome. By banning that kind of member you are never going to be able to read their input or see what they produce in the future and I feel something of value is lost. I would prefer to see critical posts be subject first to a reprimand, the same kind of infractions and warnings we get from mods here rather than the heavy handed "my way or the highway".

 

[Lucille]

Where's 'over there' ?

 

[ghosthousecorns]

The corn snake source, I would link it but I can't :awcrap:

 

[Lucille]

The corn snake source, I would link it but I can't :awcrap:

That's OK I'm not interested in going there I just didn't know.