Dilute?

[Joejr14]

Alright, I know this might be a bit unpopular but I'm still confused.

I've seen a bunch of dilute theads in the past few weeks and I still don't 'get it'. I've seen a few threads of various anery dilute mots....and all I see is a nice ghost mot. I've seen threads of dilute anery stripes and I see an anery stripe. Last year I saw pics of a dilute normal and it looked like a normal to me.

Maybe it's because I haven't seen one in person, but why the huge expenditure in energy, room, and project snakes to produce something that doesn't look as good as hypo A?

:shrugs:

 

[stephen]

Dillutes

Do you have one/any Joe ?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I imagine since he said:
"Maybe it's because I haven't seen one in person"
The answer to that question would be no.

Anyway...I agree with Joe. I don't get it nor do I see what the big deal is and I have seen them in person.

 

[Joejr14]

Do you have one/any Joe ?

If I did I would have seen one in person, Stephen.

I just don't see the point in paying $150 for a dilute anery mot when I can get a ghost mot for $35 and they look identical.

:shrugs:

 

[Stephen29]

I have never seen a dilute in person either . How long have they been around ?

 

[Walter Smith]

Do you have one/any Joe ?

Hey Stephen,
did you get my email?? :shrugs:

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Walter Smith]

If I did I would have seen one in person, Stephen.

I just don't see the point in paying $150 for a dilute anery mot when I can get a ghost mot for $35 and they look identical.

:shrugs:

Joe,
Here is a Dilute Anery Motley (A.K.A. Blue Motley) and a comparison of a Anery Stripe & Dilute Anery Stripe.
I have never seen a Ghost Motley that looked this "Blue"
The Dilute gene when combined to Anery gives a "Bluish" coloration and also seem to enhance pink coloration as well. It also seems to give a "Hazed" looking appearence.

The pic. of the two stripes are from Rob Stevens.

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Joejr14]

I see a difference, Walter, but the dilutes just look like ghost mots and a ghost stripe to me.

 

[Walter Smith]

I see a difference, Walter, but the dilutes just look like ghost mots and a ghost stripe to me.

You actually just contradicted yourself here, but I hear ya man and if that's what you see, then that's what you see.
I see two totally different looking animals, phenotypically and genotypically.

You are right, if they only look like Ghosts Mots and Ghost Stripes to you, then that's what you should stick with. Everyone has that option.

However, the Dilute trait has only begun to be combined with other color & pattern traits, so in a few years when you see a Dilute Caramel Bloodred and it's absolutly mind blowing, you might think a bit different??? :shrugs:

Walter,
:crazy02: Bout' corns !!

 

[Joejr14]

You actually just contradicted yourself here, but I hear ya man and if that's what you see, then that's what you see.
I see two totally different looking animals, phenotypically and genotypically.

You are right, if they only look like Ghosts Mots and Ghost Stripes to you, then that's what you should stick with. Everyone has that option.

However, the Dilute trait has only begun to be combined with other color & pattern traits, so in a few years when you see a Dilute Caramel Bloodred and it's absolutly mind blowing, you might think a bit different??? :shrugs:

Walter,
:crazy02: Bout' corns !!

I think I'm just tired. I guess I meant to say from the start I don't see much of a difference, if any, between dilute and hypo A.

My main point is that if I and many others don't see a difference between an anery mot dilute and a ghost mot, then whats to assume there's going to be a difference between an amber and a dilute caramel, or a hypo lav and a dilute lav?

Just kinda seems like dilute has the weakest hypo like effect, at least thats what my eyes tell me.

 

[Pasodama]

Dilute is a Hypo (or Hypo-like) gene. However, there is something a little different about it.
Some people say that it is as if the pigment does not quite reach the skin's surface.
It does suppress black/dark colors, to a certain degree (&/or to different degrees), and seems to have some heightening of lighter colors. It gives a different cast, to the reds, as well. Some color, on the snake, can even be suppressed from reaching the surface, in places, altogether (&/or almost completely) ... giving another unique look.
Dilutes shed absolutely, 100%, pigment free skins (even the Dilute Classics) - Dilute Classics turn opaque (akin to an Amel) when in blue (rather than "dark" as regular Classics do) - they have a ventrum that is different from a regular normal - etc.
As hatchlings, Dilute Classics stand out amidst a group of regular Classics ... Dilute Aneries, Dilute Caramels, Dilute Charcoals, etc., also stand out from same morph hatchlings that are not Dilute... at the least end, without taking any other distinguishing factor into account, Dilute hatchlings are lighter than equivalent morph, but non-Dilute, hatchlings.

Dilutes do have a different look, than Hypo A (just as Hypo B is different), and,... while some people like it ... some other people may not (which is okay because, after all, not everyone likes, &/or can appreciate, every morph).

I can tell you that the Dilute Classic, that you mention as having looked (last year) like a regular Normal, does not look like a regular Normal (and he does, of course, look different, than he did last year, too). He would stand out, like a sore thumb, amidst a group of my regular Classics. I posted recent photos, of him, but I guess you must have missed them. My other Dilute Classics do not look like regular Classics, either, and I expect them to look less so the older they get. My Dilute Pastel (Ghost) Motleys do not look like regular Ghost Mots, to me, either (and they are very pink ).

 

[Susan]

I guess it really depends upon the ghosts you've seen. I can see a big difference between the ghosts and the dilutes I've hatched. At hatching, the dilute are a grayish blue (blued steel is a very accurate description of the color) while my ghosts are basically very pink. As adults, the dilutes and ghosts both have pink, but the dilutes tend to have a bit more. However, the difference in the "black" is where it really lies. The ghosts have more of a bronze/tannish shade to them while the dilutes keep that bluish shade. My one female actually has parts that are more black.

Ghost motley

Dilute anery motley

Anery motley

Ghost motley

Dilute anery motley

Anery motley

Ghost stripe

Dilute anery stripe

 

[Joejr14]

I guess it really depends upon the ghosts you've seen. I can see a big difference between the ghosts and the dilutes I've hatched. At hatching, the dilute are a grayish blue (blued steel is a very accurate description of the color) while my ghosts are basically very pink. As adults, the dilutes and ghosts both have pink, but the dilutes tend to have a bit more. However, the difference in the "black" is where it really lies. The ghosts have more of a bronze/tannish shade to them while the dilutes keep that bluish shade. My one female actually has parts that are more black.

Not to 'call you out' so to speak, but I've seen numerous posts of yours where you've said you cannot ID dilutes from clutch mates.

I've been a little unsure, no, ALOT unsure, in identifying dilute anery stripes. I've had one stripe hatch each year that sort of looks like it might be one, but they never end up surviving for me to make a positive identification.

My worries were that she was just a dark ghost stripe (the ghosts from this pair have always been light in past years) as both parents are also het hypo.

So if someone who has been hatching out dilutes for a few years struggles to ID them and is unsure if it's an anery stripe or a dark ghost stripe, how does that pass the brown paper bag test? I hate to quote just you Susan because I know others have made similar posts, but you just happen to be the most recent post that comes to mind---and I've been up since 3am so I am way too lazy to search under 'dilute'.

I know I'm having trouble with some ID's on these amels that hatched---are they sunkised or not, but sunkisseds definitely are as much a pattern gene as a hypo gene....and it's damn hard to ID hypo when combined with amel. But if dilute is acting as a hypo gene, why in the heck do so many people have such a hard time IDing them when compared to hypo A, or with no presence of hypo?

I will say I went back and looked at pics of normal dilutes and while they might appear slightly different, I have a very hard time believing that more than about 2% of people could actually ID them over hypo A. I think that probably also would be the same when combined with just about any other gene.

 

[TandJ]

Think Coral Joe, probably the one and the same as dilute.. Hopefully sometime next week I actually see the difference for myself * crosses fingers and toes.. *

Regards... Tim of T and J

 

[RobStevens]

Maybe i can shed some light on the Dilute gene.
Several years ago we purchased some Anery Motleys from a friend that is a wholesale buyer.He actually called me to come by and see these snakes.
They were very different from your typical Anery.
We kept these for a couple years and finally bred them.
We reproduced the Dilute look and also produced some Ghost babies from the same clutch.
The original parents turned out het. Hypo.
We bred these snakes into Anery Stripes a year later.From these snakes we produced Anery Motley,Dilute Motley,Anery Stripe and Dilute Anery Stripe.(I will find that clutch picture lol)
There are no Dilute Ghost stripes yet because our Stripe Anery females were not het Hypo.
I have enclosed some pics that i have from last season.
Some are comparison photo's of the Dilutes and Normal Anery's.Some are comparison of Dilute Anery and Dilute Ghost.
Thanks Rob
p.s. now i'm will look for the clutch with the first dilute stripes

 

[stephen]

Joe

So Joe you dont like them and others do,what does it have to do with anything? Are you asking why people like them? All people have different tastes, you act as if its wrong to not have the same taste as yours.....?
I really just am wondering here what exactly are you saying? Asking?::shrugs:

 

[Susan]

You're correct, Joe, in that I'm unsure in being able to identify a dilute anery STRIPE, especially when I have no other anery stripe clutchmates to compare it to at the time. However, I can identify a ghost stripe like the one I posted above when I've hatched one (and I have only hatched 2 like that in 10 years).

And yes, I also had a few anery motley hatchlings that were similar at hatching to dilute anery motleys because they were very light, but once they had their first sheds, I knew they were not dilutes. Their father is a clutchmate to the current pair of het dilutes and while he has not sired any dilute hatchlings, a single breeding with a known het dilute female cannot rule the possibility of him being het out. And when I paired him with a different female last year, who also had not been test bred for dilute and whose father came from the same breeder as the ghost motley I suspect as the original carrier of the dilute gene in my collection, I got a little excited initially.

And I will also admit that I am unable to tell the difference between a ghost motley and a dilute ghost motley as I have never proven one out yet. And since it seems that one of my ghost motley females may not even be hypo A but rather ultra or ultramel anery, I now have to consider THAT gene in the entire mix as well since much of my ghost and anery motleys are related in some way.

But I CAN tell a dilute anery motley from an anery motley and one of my ghost motleys. If I couldn't, I wouldn't have noticed something different in the very first clutch I hatched out. And just so you know exactly how much experience I have, I've had a handful of dilutes hatch out of only 5 clutches over a 4 year period.

Once this clutch has it's first shed, I'll post some comparison photos. I have no ghosts in it this year that are like those in all the previous clutches. However, I did incubate at lower temps, my clutches are hatching past day 83 on average, so there may be some other factors influencing pigment concentrations. But I do have a couple dilute anery motleys that I have absolutely no doubt as to their genetics.

EDIT: I located the comparison photos I still have in my computer of 2 anery motley, 2 ghost motley and 1 dilute anery motley siblings from the year I discovered something "odd" in my collection. Sorry about the size and quality. That is all I have left.

 

[Drizzt80]

As I recall Susan, your first impressions of the Dilute were "Blued Steel"?? Via the pictures I have looked at there's also a very distinct pinkness and/or blueness to the Dilutes. Accurate? Also, in some of the adult pictures that have been shared they also appear to look similar to adult Ice Ghosts (yet not of course, just similar)?

Regardless of any of that, there does appear to be a significant difference that would hold up to the paper bag test. :shrugs:
D80

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I thought one of the "tests" was that the dilutes always shed clear? If so would this not be the most accurate way to tell?
As far as why or what do people see in it? I believe it's an eye of the beholder thing, what is beautiful to some is not so to others. I myself feel blah about bloodred/diffused but it is one of the most popular genes out there :shrugs: OTOH some of the dilutes pictured in this thread I find quite beautiful.

 

[diamondlil]

I thought one of the "tests" was that the dilutes always shed clear? If so would this not be the most accurate way to tell?
As far as why or what do people see in it? I believe it's an eye of the beholder thing, what is beautiful to some is not so to others. I myself feel blah about bloodred/diffused but it is one of the most popular genes out there :shrugs: OTOH some of the dilutes pictured in this thread I find quite beautiful.

As far as 'the eye of the beholder' goes, I'd run past a whole pile of free lavenders to get my hands on a dilute like Perdita!