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F/T vs. Live Debate

pridecity

pridecity

Patients took over asylum
I hope it's okay to post this here and in general. I was perusing Craigslist again and found this posting and several responses to it. I would like your opinion on it. Below is the following post found on Craigslist:

Ok... We are not only Anaconda breeders, we breed morph specialty boas, and reticulated pythons. We have a VERY good reputation across Colorado and other states as well. I had to just pipe in on the frozen/thawed feeding versus live. It is NOT better for the snake!!! You can read why by simply typing in "toxic snake syndrome" in your google bar. Although it may be more "humane" to the rat/mouse/rabbit, it is NOT safe for the snake! This is a long time argument in the reptile world. Some feel it's easier to feed frozen, less inhumane, and cleaner. However, there is risks to both sides.
We feed live.
Even if a rescued snake comes in and has only eaten frozen, we convert it immediately to live food. There are many different reasons for this. 1st, it's natural. 2nd, it costs about the same. 3rd when frozen rats/mice are put down they use a gas, eventually if a snake continues to eat frozen, that gas builds up a toxic level within the snake. 4th, the rat/mouse loses proteins and important vitamins when frozen. 5th, frozen feeders have to be thawed and warmed up... now just think about this... if you found a dead mouse in your house and warmed it up, you are "cooking" the feeder and causing it to become highly toxic in itself. It doesn't matter how well you thaw/warm/defrost or whatever, you are still taking a dead rodent and exposing it to heat! YUCK!
Of course your risks to live are that the rodent will bite, nip, chew your snake. For this, NEVER leave your snake unattended when feeding and NEVER leave the rodent in with the snake for more then 1 hour. The other risks could be mites, or unhealthy rodents carrying bacterial infections that can lead to respitory infections or mouth rot in the snakes.

Always get your rodents from a good feed store or pet store
Click to expand...


I feed fresh killed except for the fuzzies and pinkies as they have little biting risk (as I understand it). Are there any actual proven studies on f/t foods causing a build-up of toxins in snakes? Have there been any proven studies that feeding live can lead to RI or MO?
 
I don't know of any studies. I think for the most part it is up to you. I feed F/T because it is convenient, ans cheaper since I don't have space to breed my own mice currently or have a need to yet. As the person mentioned there are pro's and cons to both sides. I don't think what we feed them drastically changes the snakes lifespan, but an experienced breeder could tell you for sure.
 
How is it not safe if there are millions of snakes eating f/t with no ill effects? And live mice cost a lot more than frozen; my brother paid 4 USD for ONE fuzzy, when I could buy three frozen for 5 USD, and they don't lose vitamins or decay fast enough in the half hour or so it takes to thaw one to become toxic.

As far as I'm concerned, feeding live may be more entertaining to us, but there's a definite chance that the mouse has mites or some other problem with it; such problems are taken care of during the freezing process.

Also, I've never heard of f/t foods building toxins up in snakes. I wouldn't be surprised if a snake got mouth rot from a prey item that fought back, or an infection if the feeder had an infection or disease, but I don't know of any studies.
 
Toxic snake syndrome must not be very common, because there are thousands of breeders across the US who feed frozen/thawed with NO ill effects. They breed healthy snakes with no health issues.

There is almost no good reason to feed live. Feeding frozen/thawed is much safer in all aspects. The mouse is killed humanely, and the snake is not in danger of being hurt by the mouse or rat. I hate the whole "its't natural" arguement. What part about keeping a snake in a bin or tank, feeding it regularly, providing it with fresh water, keeping it safe from predators, HOLDING it, is natural?
 
The only thing that comes up on Google when searching Toxic Snake Syndrome in the first three pages has nothing to do with snakes. Page three on Google had Toxic Shock Syndrome on the third page. It was a gynocological condition that was associated to the use of tampons. I think this guy was mistaking tampons for white mice.......time to get his glasses checked.
As far as this live vs. F/T'd debate that seems to pop up every few months.......well, my opinion is F/T is better, but I don't flame anyone for feeding live if that's their choice, just as long as they aren't doing it cause they think it's cool to watch a mouse get constricted. I feed live to one of my snakes, cause that's all it will take, but I've also tossed live on occasion to several of my snakes.
 
My 21 year old has eaten nothing by F/T all his life and is still going. No ill effects here.

Personally, I'd not choose to feed live due to the danger of injury to the snake. I don't believe that you could move fast enough to prevent a bite, even if you were standing over the two animals, waiting for trouble.

However, there are snakes - the occasional Corn amongst them - that will only eat live. That's the only situation where I'd be in favour.

You can read why by simply typing in "toxic snake syndrome" in your google bar
Click to expand...
I did that with a worldwide search, and all Google came up with was a link to the original craigslist post quoted in the O/P above! Bit of a circular argument (or indeed, no argument at all).

If warming up previously-frozen food causes a build-up of toxins, then I'd better stop eating the burgers, fish products, peas, sweetcorn, bread, ready meals etc. that (perhaps sadly) make up a large proportion of my diet. Although having said that, I do seem to have survived the last 46 years well enough.
 
Another piece of crap craiglist ad!
These people have no clue, and I WILL condemn anyone who chooses to feed live to a snake that will eat thawed.
I used to know someone who had a male snow corn. This snake lived to be 28 years old, and lived his whole life eating thawed food. He was also a perfect specimen, healthy looking and beautiful, with no scars.
 
I love how it just says "They use a gas!".... Well guess what, the air we breath, and yes ingest, is pretty much.... gases!

The "gas" typically used in euthanasia for rodents is CO2, something which does NOT get absorbed by the intestines.
 
The whole f/t vs live thing seems really simple to me. Live rodents pose more risk, so if you value your snake as a pet, a beautiful living organism, or a profit making machine to breed more snakes, why take the risk unless the snake simply won't take f/t or p/k & would starve unless fed live? Freezing kills some infectious organisms that the rodent might have (not all!) and ensures the rodent can't bite the snake, so less risk. Simple to me! YMMV.
 
I wouldn't get too eat up about it....
Anyone can write anything and post it.... Doesn't make it true....
I always remember the old adage about a thousand chimps and a thousand type writers
creating the works of Shakespear.....
Now we know better and call it the internet.....
 
This is what I thought. Now here's another question:

Is it just as harmful to feed fresh killed as it is live?

I'm talking about infections, bacteria, and such. As far as they go, is f/t the best way to go?
 
Well, there are viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoans & worms to consider. Bacteria tend not to tolerate freezing all that well although some can. Worms don't either IIRC. Many if not most viruses will not become inactivated by freezing. Fungi I really don't know about, and protozoans vary, I think some can be killed by freezing & some can't. Somebody know knows what kind of serious infections snakes get will have to tell us how MUCH risk reduction f/t provides over p/k.
 
Strange that he cites "toxic snake syndrome" as a risk of feeding f/t, as i read voraciously anything and everything related to reptiles, snakes in particular, that I can get my hands on, and have never found even the smallest mention of this. CO2, the gas he mentions, is expelled naturally through the respiratory system of all animals that are part of the food chain from 1st tier consumers on up. The build up of it, as when gassing a mouse with CO2, causes dizziness and disorientation and unconsciousness, followed by a painless death. It's not as if people are dousing them in gasoline or something.
 
I'm not an expert, but I don't think freezing really kills most bacteria, just stops the growth. That might be why we are always warned when we buy our raw meats to make sure we cook them all the way through, even if it was in the freezer for a few months.
 
This has nothing to do with so called "toxic snake syndrome", but I find it incredibly cruel to feed live feeders. I own rats and mice and just don't have it in me to feed live. Why should I anyways? My snake eats f/t like a pro! I don't see any benefits to feeding live food to a snake that will take frozen.
 
The craigslist guy is stupid. Too bad all those other stupid people on CL who don't know any better will believe him.
 
I find that people who feed live prey to animals that would easily take thawed are being cruel to animals uneccessarily.

And in my eyes, people like that are just a half a notch above pedophiles.....

I detest them.....
 
pridecity said:
This is what I thought. Now here's another question:

Is it just as harmful to feed fresh killed as it is live?

I'm talking about infections, bacteria, and such. As far as they go, is f/t the best way to go?
Click to expand...

I have fed freshly killed for years with no ill effects , worms, or any other issue. However I do raise my own feeders. So my food source is under my control, unlike if I were to buy mice from someone else or a store.

I would say f/t or fresh killed is for sure the way to go. Rarely you will see a snake that will only eat live. Its safer for the animal and way more humane for the mouse.
 
Wow, just wow. Making up a syndrome without even making a fake site with fake studies. Then telling people to look it up. If half do that and get the same results as you all have, that guy will be burned at the virtual stake for false info. Or at least he would on my local CL!
 
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