-
Hello!
Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.
Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....
Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.
Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.
For ball enthusiasts
- Thread starter Putty
- Start date
ShenziSixaxis
Sticking To The Ceiling
Very nice BPs. Got any breeding plans?
Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)
Zookeeper
Any time you get bored with that Pied, you can send it my way 
.
.
Putty
French Fries
She used to stargaze a lot as a hatchling. Guess she's grown out of it now? It's weird - I've seen a few bps wobble both as youngins and adults.
I had a bumblebee for a month or so a while ago and he was from the same bloodline as my spider. This little guy was a big time wobbler, and I've been told by his new owner that he still is.
As far as breeding plans go...I'll be pairing up the spider and the pastel in a month or so, and of course the mojaves when they get old enough. I've been looking into getting an 09 het pied female, but I still think the prices for a het are way too high.
Thanks Mrs. Z! But I doubt I'll get bored of him anytime soon
.
ziggybond_007
Team Laura
I love them all. All of them. Also, update your sig.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
She used to stargaze a lot as a hatchling. Guess she's grown out of it now? It's weird - I've seen a few bps wobble both as youngins and adults.
I had a bumblebee for a month or so a while ago and he was from the same bloodline as my spider. This little guy was a big time wobbler, and I've been told by his new owner that he still is.
As far as breeding plans go...I'll be pairing up the spider and the pastel in a month or so, and of course the mojaves when they get old enough. I've been looking into getting an 09 het pied female, but I still think the prices for a het are way too high.
Thanks Mrs. Z! But I doubt I'll get bored of him anytime soon
Erm... you are aware that stargazing is due to a defect, right?
I wouldn't be so quick to breed a spider that exhibited stargazing.
Putty
French Fries
Yeah - but it's a "defect" that's very common in a lot of spiders. Sometimes it gets passed on and sometimes it doesn't. So who knows if the hatchlings will have it - I may end up not getting anything with a spider gene in them - which would be very unlikely.
I have to make a correction as well seeing as I can't edit. The bumblebee I had in '09 was from a different bloodline as well. I thought I had gotten it from Mark Mandic but it was from Simon Hamelin.
Wobbling is something that I'm not too worried about. Like I said, my spider doesn't do it anymore and it never stopped her from eating/drinking or cruising around when she was young.
Also - is it wrong for me to group "stagazing" and "wobbling" together as the same term? When I was at the CRBE, someone approached us with a carpet python they had just purchased. An '08 jungle jag sib I believe - they asked us if it's behaviour was out of the ordinary. It would look straight up and then slowly reach backwards with it's head until it made a loop and then straightened back out again.
Now I don't know anything about Carpet genes and defects. The guy kept being told that it was normal for sibs to do that and that it would "come and go". Which I thought was weird because looking straight up - to me -would qualify as "stargazing". Whereas the curling onto itself reminded me of IBD.
But. When people describe their ball pythons as "stargazers", they just have that sporadic head shaking for a second and two. Can it be qualified as the same thing - or have I just not seen "stargazing" for what it really is when it comes to ball pythons?
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
stargazing is a neural disorder, which is expressed by motor disability, corkscrewing the head upwards and inability to slither straight.
Your BP is possibly het, or is in fact, suffering from a low expression stargazing.
Breeding these and selling them on contaminates the captive bred stock- especially when these defects are treated as "oh, it's just something that comes and goes and many spiders have it".
Other pythons may suffer from similar condition, by any number of reasons: IBD, genetic defect, injury, disease.
All of which render the animal inappropriate for breeding.
I can't tell you what to do, but IMHO, knowingly breeding and continuing a known defect, and making them available to the market is crossing several red lines. It's like purposely spreading autism or blindness.
Your BP is possibly het, or is in fact, suffering from a low expression stargazing.
Breeding these and selling them on contaminates the captive bred stock- especially when these defects are treated as "oh, it's just something that comes and goes and many spiders have it".
Other pythons may suffer from similar condition, by any number of reasons: IBD, genetic defect, injury, disease.
All of which render the animal inappropriate for breeding.
I can't tell you what to do, but IMHO, knowingly breeding and continuing a known defect, and making them available to the market is crossing several red lines. It's like purposely spreading autism or blindness.
CMLReptiles
Hooah!
if my memory serves me right, spiders are known to have issues with "head tremors" (the shaking you mention) and not so much the stargazing. I've heard people saying it can be seriously debilitating, but I've also heard of it not having any effect other than, as you said, a couple seconds then back to normal. It comes down to the same issues you get w/ pure bred dogs...are you, as the owner, comfortable producing animals that stand a good chance of having genetic birth defects? It's a personal decision, that I personally have no problem with.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
I double checked.
Apparently, all Spider bp's exhibit "wobbling" at some point in their lives, and the original spider have done so as well.
Dunno.
Personally, this seriously puts me off of the spider morph in general. There's a known neural defect, but people continue to spread it?
Jags apparently suffer from such a defect as well.
Well, that sure will make me double and triple check myself should I consider pythons... it strikes me as inconsiderate towards the animal.
if your snake exhibited wobbling and not stargazing, than apparently that's the norm :nope:
Apparently, all Spider bp's exhibit "wobbling" at some point in their lives, and the original spider have done so as well.
Dunno.
Personally, this seriously puts me off of the spider morph in general. There's a known neural defect, but people continue to spread it?
Jags apparently suffer from such a defect as well.
Well, that sure will make me double and triple check myself should I consider pythons... it strikes me as inconsiderate towards the animal.
if your snake exhibited wobbling and not stargazing, than apparently that's the norm :nope:
CMLReptiles
Hooah!
From what i've heard, it's a trait that's specific with the spider gene. I'm sure other snakes have shown symptoms, but the head tremors are a risk taken when producing the spiders.
Putty
French Fries
Right - I used the wrong terminology then. That's my fault.
It's not something I'm terribly worried about
Shelliebear
Team Snug
Yes, spiders often display wobbles, and it doesn't affect them negatively in any way physically. I'm not sure about stargazing though--my guess would be that stargazing by itself isn't too bad, but combined with cork screwing, tremors, lethargy, inability to right itself when turned over, going off feed, etc. it's probably a sign of something serious.
Also, IBD is fatal in pythons--it wouldn't have "grown out of it". It would have died fairly quickly.
Also, IBD is fatal in pythons--it wouldn't have "grown out of it". It would have died fairly quickly.
Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)
Zookeeper
So.... you bored with that Piebald, yet? Hmmmm??
Putty
French Fries
Yeah I've seen a baby boa die from IBD pretty much right over night. I had a video somewhere I had shown people on here of it's behaviour. Much different than what spiders do. I know IBD is fatal - but I've heard that sometimes pythons can be carriers while not showing any signs of it. If so - that's a scary thought.
So.... you bored with that Piebald, yet? Hmmmm??
Haha nop. I look forward to having a ball python that actually keeps his hatchling colours as he grows
.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
I know of no lines of spiders that are free from wobble head syndrome. Spiders, being a dominant trait with no super, are probably the single most outcrossed mutation of captive balls. I don't think that any normals from a spider pairing have ever been proven to exhibit this, so really it (spiders and their combos) is the only morph to avoid if you feel the WHS defect should never be passed on.
Putty
French Fries
Yeah - It's a really terrible thing to watch.
Always pays to keep new snakes away from our collections in those cases.
Lolo
Surrounded by snakes
Beautiful BPs! I really want a pied, so that's definitely next on my list... already got 2 mojaves (who look like yours), a spider, pastel, and a black pastel who looks like a cinnamon. So our collections are fairly similar, at least in terms of those morphs.
As for the spider "wobble," it is said that NO spider is technically wobble-free, but mine is pretty darned close. I am planning to breed him this season, so hopefully his babies will be minor wobblers like him... really only noticeable when he's super focused on something (like live prey), and his head will vibrate ever so slightly. My old roommate used to call him Michael J Fox, which is kinda mean but also kinda funny. Anyway, thanks for sharing your beautiful collection!
So our collections are fairly similar, at least in terms of those morphs.As for the spider "wobble," it is said that NO spider is technically wobble-free, but mine is pretty darned close. I am planning to breed him this season, so hopefully his babies will be minor wobblers like him... really only noticeable when he's super focused on something (like live prey), and his head will vibrate ever so slightly. My old roommate used to call him Michael J Fox, which is kinda mean but also kinda funny.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your beautiful collection!