Homo Anery & Charcoal?

[mrweaw]

Hello all,
I have a hatchling that is Anery but perhaps also Homo Charcoal. Does anyone out there have a snake that is homo for both forms of anery? If so could you please post a pic?
Thanks!
Erin

 

[jaxom1957]

Hello all,
I have a hatchling that is Anery but perhaps also Homo Charcoal. Does anyone out there have a snake that is homo for both forms of anery? If so could you please post a pic?

The expectation would be a snake indistinguishable from a dark anery. Did you breed this yourself? What were you trying to achieve?

I haven't read about anyone else promoting the double-homo anery and anery b. What are you going to call it? Charcoal Briquet?
:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Drizzt80]

Not sure if this picture will help, but it's a Phantom (Hypo Charcoal) that did end up being homo for Anery as well. It appeared more charcoal than anery. :shrugs: Carol now has the snake, and could possibly post updated pictures.

D80

 

[mrweaw]

This little guy came out of a Snow het. Charcoal X Anery het. Charcoal Motley. I didn't really have anyone really good to breed the snow to so I figured I would see what I got. In fact this little Anery, who I will get a pic of here soon, does look very dark, slightly iridescent, and IMO just not quite normal Anery. Seeing as there is a 100% chance that he is Anery A and a 25% chance that he is Homo Charcoal I figured I would see if anyone else had come across one of these guys.

 

[jaxom1957]

Not sure if this picture will help, but it's a Phantom (Hypo Charcoal) that did end up being homo for Anery as well. It appeared more charcoal than anery.

Know of any without the hypo? I think that throws off the results too much.

 

[Drizzt80]

Know of any without the hypo? I think that throws off the results too much.

No, I don't. I don't think the Hypo throws off what we could expect . . . you suggest:

The expectation would be a snake indistinguishable from a dark anery.

I would then suggest that a Hypo Charcoal Anery should be darker than a regular ghost . . . yet my Phantom example is generally lighter than what you'd expect from a regular ghost.

Also, by extrapolation of your quoted comment, I would expect an Anery Lavender to be darker than a regular Lavender . . . the opposite seems to be true from the examples I have seen pictures of. :shrugs: Either way, I'll leave it up to Erin to decide if my picture was beneficial or not.

Plus let's just throw in the variability of any corn morph from light to dark . . . :eek1: . . . and the ones that seem to be 'sex-linked' in some fashion.

D80

 

[jaxom1957]

No, I don't. I don't think the Hypo throws off what we could expect . . . you suggest:I would then suggest that a Hypo Charcoal Anery should be darker than a regular ghost . . . yet my Phantom example is generally lighter than what you'd expect from a regular ghost.

Hypo reduces the amount of black, which should leave a lighter snake. A hypo anery is lighter than an anery. A hypo charcoal is lighter than a charcoal. A hypo anery charcoal should be lighter than an anery charcoal. You posted a hypo anery charcoal; the results he asked about would be darker.

Also, by extrapolation of your quoted comment, I would expect an Anery Lavender to be darker than a regular Lavender . . . the opposite seems to be true from the examples I have seen pictures of.

Why would you expect anery to lighten it? Anery eliminates reds and oranges, so the lack of red pigment in the lavender should mute it to grey, creating a lighter snake.

Charcoal appears to darken the background as well as remove red and orange. That's why I would expect an anery charcoal to appear darker than an anery - darker ground color.

Either way, I'll leave it up to Erin to decide if my picture was beneficial or not.

I didn't say the pic wasn't beneficial, only that the added hypomelanism changes the equation, so the fact that the pictured snake is lighter doesn't ensure that an anery charcoal without hypo would be lighter as well.

 

[mrweaw]

Thanks for the beautiful picture! That is truly a magnificent snake. Seems that I have caused quite a debate here Here is a picture of the little guy in question. I have hatched out a lot of aneries in my day and this baby just looks odd to me. Unfortunately I don't have anyone to test breed him with except a pewter anymore.

The funny shine he has doesn't show up in the picture...maybe I'm just imagining it.

 

[diamondlil]

Wouldn't an amel prove it out? If you get snows and blizzards, you'll prove the 2 anery types in the snake?

 

[jaxom1957]

Thanks for the beautiful picture! That is truly a magnificent snake. Seems that I have caused quite a debate here Here is a picture of the little guy in question. I have hatched out a lot of aneries in my day and this baby just looks odd to me. Unfortunately I don't have anyone to test breed him with except a pewter anymore.

The background color looks greyer than the anery hatchlings I've seen. That's what I would expect charcoal to do. I like the head pattern, and I especially like the little "Chevy Bowtie" side pattern inside that first loop. Got a name yet? He's a cute little bugger

What about breeding to a charcoal, not het for anything? If he is charcoal, all of the babies would be as well. If he's het, half would be, and if he's neither, you'd have a bunch of normal het anery charcoals, right?

BTW: I got Hyacinthus to eat two fuzzy tails Wednesday night, and he has perked up considerably. <hugh sigh of relief> :cheers:

 

[Drizzt80]

Hypo reduces the amount of black, which should leave a lighter snake. A hypo anery is lighter than an anery. A hypo charcoal is lighter than a charcoal. A hypo anery charcoal should be lighter than an anery charcoal.

I understand completely what Hypo does, and you are correct, but you did not understand what I had written above, nor did you finish with your comparisons . . .repeating what you said in the above quote: (greater than less than meaning amount of darkness).
Ghost (Hypo Anery) < Anery (GH lighter than AY)
Phantom (Hypo Charcoal) < Charcoal (PH lighter than CH)
Hypo Charocal Anery < Charcoal Anery (HY CH AY lighter than CH AY)

Now, you stated much further back that:
Charcoal Anery > Charcoal and/or Anery (CH AY darker than CH and/or AY)

Correct? If so, then:
Hypo Charcoal Anery > Phantom and/or Ghost (HY CH AY darker than PH and/or GH)
The picture I shared would seem to point towards:
Hypo Charcoal Anery < Phantom and/or Ghost (HY CH AY lighter than PH and/or GH) which in turn would potentially mean that Charcoal Anery could be lighter than Charcoal or Anery by themselves.

Does that clear up what I was trying to say? And before it's ranked on, I do clearly understand that one snake as an example of color does not define the morph! Which was the addendum refering to color differences within the same morphs.

D80

 

[jaxom1957]

Charcoal Anery > Charcoal and/or Anery (CH AY darker than CH and/or AY)

Nope. CH > CH+AN > AN. I would not expect anery charcoal to be darker than charcoal, only darker than anery.

Hypo Charcoal Anery > Phantom and/or Ghost (HY CH AY darker than PH and/or GH)

If you're going to compare them that way, don't change variables midstream. Extrapolating what I said above:

HY+CH+AN > HY+CH > HY+AN

But I didn't extrapolate to that because the added variable is unreliable in how it affects the results. There isn't enough data about the HY+CH+AN to know if the prediction holds true. There is too much variation in just HY+CH and HY+AN to make reliable predictions. If you look back at my first post, you'll see that I didn't try to set an answer in stone. I expressed an expectation, based on the behavior of the individual morphs: charcoal is generally darker than anery, so a snake with charcoal and anery should be darker than anery alone. When you responded with a picture of a charcoal anery hypo, I asked if you had any without the hypo because that skews the results. Your response that hypo doesn't throw off the results makes no sense at all. Any additional homozygous color morph throws off the results, plain and simple. Do you think if we add amel, that will help the prediction? Morphs expresses themselves differently when acted upon by other morphs, so any superfluous traits reduce the reliability.

The picture I shared would seem to point towards:
Hypo Charcoal Anery < Phantom and/or Ghost (HY CH AY lighter than PH and/or GH) which in turn would potentially mean that Charcoal Anery could be lighter than Charcoal or Anery by themselves.

Again, there is too much variation in hypo anery and hypo charcoal for a picture of a hypo anery charcoal to be much help in forming a theory.
The problem comes down to what effect hypo has on the combination of anery and charcoal. Adding hypo (HY+AN+CH) reduces the reliability of the picture as a tool to predict the phenotype of AN+CH.

 

[mrweaw]

The problem with proving this little guy out is that the only female I still have that carries the charcoal gene is my female pewter. I haven't named him because he is for sale. If he doesn't sell I will keep him but if he does thats ok too. If someone is interested in him just let me know!
Congrats on your little one eating Lee!! I just don't have the time right now to work with problem feeders. You do seem to have a magic touch though.




:-offtopic Anyone else think we need to add another $5 to our contributer memberships so that Rich can upgrade the server again?? This whole "the server is too busy, try again later" thing is starting to bug me....A lot.

 

[Drizzt80]

Morphs expresses themselves differently when acted upon by other morphs, so any superfluous traits reduce the reliability.

This statement, by you, sums up the point I was trying to make best. The statement that a Charcoal Anery would/should be indistinquishable from a dark Anery falls in the same category since you have two genotypes interacting. (I did assume too much in also thinking you meant Charcoal Anery would also be darker than Charcoal.) The only other thing I want to address from your response is:

Nope. CH > CH+AN > AN. I would not expect anery charcoal to be darker than charcoal, only darker than anery.

If you're going to compare them that way, don't change variables midstream. Extrapolating what I said above:

HY+CH+AN > HY+CH > HY+AN

. . . should have been written HY+CH > HY+CH+AY > AN to match what you meant (CH > CH+AN > AN). Either way, my example of a HY+CH+AY appears to be < both HY+CH and HY+AY.

Lastly, I don't quite understand where I changed variables? Nothing changed unless you mean the symbols I used? FYI, PH=Phantom=HY+CH GH=Ghost=HY+AY

D80

 

[jaxom1957]

Anyone else think we need to add another $5 to our contributer memberships so that Rich can upgrade the server again?? This whole "the server is too busy, try again later" thing is starting to bug me....A lot.

Okay, I felt guilty enough about how much I've received from the site to join. Tell Rich to add my two-bits to the new server fund. oke:

 

[jaxom1957]

. . . should have been written HY+CH > HY+CH+AY > AN to match what you meant (CH > CH+AN > AN). Either way, my example of a HY+CH+AY appears to be < both HY+CH and HY+AY.
Lastly, I don't quite understand where I changed variables? Nothing changed unless you mean the symbols I used? FYI, PH=Phantom=HY+CH GH=Ghost=HY+AY

Symbols are variables. In "A + B = C", A, B and C are each variables. You switched to PH and GH, instead of continuing with (HY + CH) and (HY + AN). Yes, I understood what you were trying to say, but without including the statements "HY + CH = PH", and "HY + AN = GH", your equation had undefined variables, leading to confusion. The options were to include those statements defining the variables or, alternatively, to use the mathmatical equations previously defined, which is what I chose to do in expressing the extrapolation.

Spoken like a true computer geek, huh? Anyone want to guess my major? Anyone? :grin01:

 

[manog]

I have an 'anery' that looks just like that and i too have been a little suspicious. The mom was a miami unknown hets and the father was a amel unknown hets. I got snows, amels, and this girl. I assumed because of the outcome that she was an anery but other anery hatchlings i have seen are a little different. My hypothesis was that because the mom was a miami that it inhanced the silver background. She was born in april of '06 and hasnt shown any signs of yellow? Is it possible for a wild anery b to pop up?

 

[jaxom1957]

I have an 'anery' that looks just like that and i too have been a little suspicious. The mom was a miami unknown hets and the father was a amel unknown hets. I got snows, amels, and this girl. My hypothesis was that because the mom was a miami that it inhanced the silver background. Is it possible for a wild anery b to pop up?

I think anery, nicely highlighted by the Miami, is more likely than anery b popping up.