Please help! Building snake rack.

[replover]

I'm an moderately experienced herp keeper, but am new to corns. I mainly keep lizards and tortoises, and do have a snake that I heat with ceramic heaters, not heat mats or tapes.

I am going to start a breeding project. I am going to acquire 6 corn snakes, and would like to build a rack system.
The corns will first come here in about a month as babies, and I plan to house them with exo terra faunariums for a few months until they outgrow them. It is still summer here and it is hot and no heating is needed yet. However, I will need to heat them during winter obviously.

1) First question. While I am keeping them in the faunariums (roughly 10 gallon plastic tubs), I plan to heat them with 4 inch flexwatt heat tape. I have no experience with heat tape before. Do I simply stick the heat tape to the bottom of the plastic tubs? Will that cause the plastic to melt? I will of course use a thermostat or rheostat but I do not know if flexwatt is supposed to be stuck on plastic.

2) As the snakes grow, I will move them to a snake rack that I plan to build. Now, I have to decide whether I will
i) have individual heat tapes (probably 11 inch) under each of the tubs, which again presents the problem of melting the tubs, as well as wires dangling when I pull the trays out, or
ii) a system where I stick a long strip of the heat tape on the INSIDE WALL of the rack. This is how my friend who breeds snakes does it and swears by it. It makes sense. Since the tape doesn't touch the plastic tubs, it won't melt them. Also, the heat will be hotter on the inside back end, while cooler on the front outside. However, while I have never used flexwatt, I have used UTHs such as Exo terras, and I know that the heat doesn't travel far. I have a Exo heat mat under a tank for a python and it only heats the substrate. 1 inch above, the temperature is not affected much. So, if I was to stick the tape on the inside wall of the rack, would I end up with 2 inches of too hot, and the rest of the tubs too cold? Would the heat even penetrate the plastic to heat 1/3 of the tub?

My friend uses a single thermostat to control his entire rack. I don't see how this is possible, even though he's bred snakes for over a decade. The heat is going to travel upwards to the top, so that the top level is too hot, and bottom level is colder, right??? Also, the thermostat switches off when the probe detects a temp rise above the temperature set. But where would you put the single probe in this case?
I think it would be prohibitively expensive for a thermostat for EACH tub.

I'm quite confused on this and would appreciate any help possible. Some pics of the racks that actually show the setup of the heating would be nice.

 

[replover]

Oh yes, and by the way, how hot do these flexwatt get? I can prevent them getting too hot with a thermostat (still not sure how to place the probe amongst all the tubs) but would it get too COLD in the winter?

I know for sure that if they heat up only as much as the Exo terra UTHs, that isn't enough. But then again, you guys sometimes live in places with below freezing temps. I don't. I live where the temps go down to about 10 - 15C, but it feels really cold to me. Whether I decide on mounting on the back or the bottom, is the heat tape alone probably enough? I have heard that flexwatt does make more heat than the regular "reptile use" UTHs, but not sure.

How far does the heat travel?

 

[zwyatt]

You've probably got 2 main options for heating tubs in the rack. 1) use a router to make a "trench" so that you can have recessed heat rope/cable (for belly heat). This way the heating element isn't in direct contact with the tubs and it won't get in the way of sliding the tubs in and out.
2) use flexwatt strips down the back of the rack as in this picture.

You don't want to put flexwatt on the bottom of the shelf and have the tubs sliding back and forth constantly rubbing and wearing it down. Also, you can't really "stick-on" flexwatt as it's plastic. Typically you tack it on to something like this:

I don't know what 10-15C converts to off the top of my head. It gets pretty cold here and gets pretty cold in my apartment and I never had any real problems keeping the temps up with back heat as in the first picture I showed you.

One thermostat is plenty to control the entire rack. Just place the thermostat probe in one of the tubs in the desired place. It was suggested to me to place the probe in a tub that is towards the upper middle of the rack, which seemed to work out pretty well for me. I also had a few $7 thermometers that I would place in various tubs throughout the rack to make sure the temps were right. Once I got used to my set-up and was sure the temps were stable where I wanted them, I stopped using all the extra thermometers and just used the thermostat probe.
Another tip that seemed to help me: If you have any open slots in the rack (tubs that don't have a snake in them), try to use that tub for the placement of the thermostat probe. That way you aren't pulling the probe in and out and constantly causing temp changes and possibly causing wear and tear on the probe each time you move the tub in and out of the rack.


As for your first question about putting the flexwatt right against the faunariums, I wouldn't do it unless I was sure that my set-up was fail-safe. The flexwatt could get too hot. I can't remember off the top of my head how hot it gets, but I think it's pretty hot. So unless you can ensure that the tape isn't going to overheat, melt the vivs, or burn your snakes I would find a different solution. Maybe a cheap, temporary rack where the flexwatt wouldn't have to directly touch the faunariums.


Another note: 11 inch flexwatt is pretty big. I used 4 strips of 3 inch flexwatt to heat my entire rack (again the first pic in this post) and the 3 inch did a fine job.


There's also a lot of good info in this thread http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6027&highlight=rack+system. There are also many other threads regarding flexwatt, thermostats, rheostats, etc. So check them out and see if they don't answer any questions you might have.

If you have any other questions you can't find answers to, don't be afraid to ask.

 

[replover]

Thanks Zach, that was VERY helpful, especially the photo.

I do have some questions still though.

1) 10-15C would be 50 - 59 F. Does that compare to your temps over there? Would the flexwatt mounted on the back be enough to give a 80 - 85 F temp for them for at least 1/3 of the tubs?

2) I presume from your photos that the planks (horizontal) do not touch the back board of the shelves? So you have the heat tape tacked to the planks, two tacks at each level, but the heat tape does not touch the back board at all? How far away?

3) Can the heat tape cause a fire by burning the wood it touches, or melt the tacks that is used to attach them to the wood shelves? Perhaps double sided tape would do? What do you use to tack them to the shelves?

4) You recommend not the 11 inch but instead the 4 inch or the 3 inch. What are the size of the tubs that you are using there? For my faunariums, they are 18 inch by 10 inch floor space. I would presume the 4 inch would definitely be enough. But for my large tubs later on, I plan on using tub sizes approximately 12 to 15 inches X 30 inches. Would the 4 inch tape do? I keep saying 4 inch because that is available to me here locally, whereas the other sizes I have to mail order. I would prefer to place the tubs with the SHORT edge near the heat, so as to creat a bigger temperature gradient over the distance. I notice you place one of your bigger tubs witht he long side back (bottom one). If I place them short side to the heat, will the heat travel enough distance into the tubs?

5) Finally, I guess you have already answered this by saying that you only need one thermostat. However, I do find it hard to understand how the temps in all the tubs over such a wide area can be the same. I mean, since hot air rises, won't the top shelves end up hotter? When you had thermometers in all the tubs, were they all registering pretty much the same temperatures?

Thanks for your patience.

 

[replover]

One more thing. Does it matter that they are not getting belly heat for digestion? I like your method, much easier to set up. I really don't want to have to build all the trenches as it would be too complex for a first timer. But just wondering if it makes much difference.

 

[zwyatt]

1) 10-15C would be 50 - 59 F. Does that compare to your temps over there? Would the flexwatt mounted on the back be enough to give a 80 - 85 F temp for them for at least 1/3 of the tubs?

Oh my gosh yes! I live in the midwest and average temps regularly get down in the upper 20's and low 30's (degrees F) in the winter. Many parts of the US can get colder than this.
So, yes, the flexwatt will easily keep the temperatures up.

2) I presume from your photos that the planks (horizontal) do not touch the back board of the shelves? So you have the heat tape tacked to the planks, two tacks at each level, but the heat tape does not touch the back board at all? How far away?

Actually it did pretty much touch. That pegboard piece on the back is screwed on. I screwed it on pretty tight, but not so much that it was really tight (if that makes sense). I'm sure the flexwatt was touching the backs of the plywood shelves in many places, but it's not a big deal because it should never be hot enough to cause problems. FYI, the flexwatt is actually tacked directly to the backs of the shelves and not to the pegboard.

3) Can the heat tape cause a fire by burning the wood it touches, or melt the tacks that is used to attach them to the wood shelves? Perhaps double sided tape would do? What do you use to tack them to the shelves?

I just use simple, cheap thumb tacks. If you look at the original picture you can see that the tacks are stuck through the clear part on the edge. The tacks don't go directly through the heating element so there is no worry about melting.
If heat tape is left uncontrolled (no thermostat or rheostat) then it might get hot enough to damage wood if it was in contact with it for a long time. Like I said, I'm sure mine touched the shelves in some spots. However, the flexwatt never got nearly hot enough to cause problems.

4) You recommend not the 11 inch but instead the 4 inch or the 3 inch. What are the size of the tubs that you are using there? For my faunariums, they are 18 inch by 10 inch floor space. I would presume the 4 inch would definitely be enough. But for my large tubs later on, I plan on using tub sizes approximately 12 to 15 inches X 30 inches. Would the 4 inch tape do? I keep saying 4 inch because that is available to me here locally, whereas the other sizes I have to mail order. I would prefer to place the tubs with the SHORT edge near the heat, so as to creat a bigger temperature gradient over the distance. I notice you place one of your bigger tubs witht he long side back (bottom one). If I place them short side to the heat, will the heat travel enough distance into the tubs?

I'm not an expert on different sizes of flexwatt. I'm just trying to point out that the 11" may be overkill and you might be able to get by with something smaller (3 or 4"). I've read in some other threads about the 11" being overkill in some situations. I had two tub sizes (16qt and 28qt). The 28qt were exactly the length of two 16qts side by side.
So with 4 strips of flexwatt down the back, each 16qt tub gets one strip of flexwatt and each 28qt gets 2 strips. Make sense?
I never seemed to have problems with heat travelling far enough. If that is a big concern you can always route out a slot along the backs of each shelf and lay heat rope in it. Personally, I feel like that's just extra work as back heat is plenty.

You can see in this pic how 1 big tub is equal in size of two small tubs, and so 1 big tub gets two strips of flexwatt instead of one like the small tubs.

5) Finally, I guess you have already answered this by saying that you only need one thermostat. However, I do find it hard to understand how the temps in all the tubs over such a wide area can be the same. I mean, since hot air rises, won't the top shelves end up hotter? When you had thermometers in all the tubs, were they all registering pretty much the same temperatures?

Yes they are all pretty much the same temp. What differences I did observe can mostly be chalked up to thermometer error (not all thermometers are calibrated equally well, etc).
Within one rack that is only ~36 inches high, you don't have to worry very much at all about temperatures being different in different spots. That is why I suggested putting the thermostat probe in a tub that is towards the top of the rack and towards the middle. This is likely to be one of the warmer spots. But if you use a couple extra thermometers at different spots throughout the rack system you can see what's going on and make adjustments.

I have to say that using 3 or 4 extra thermometers to watch the temperatures is probably overkill. I did it because I'm nuerotic with a dash of obsessive compulsive.

One more thing. Does it matter that they are not getting belly heat for digestion?

It really doesn't matter that much. Ideally, belly heat would be optimal, but back heat for this type of project if perfectly fine. Many people here on the forums use back heat for their rack systems with no problems.


Hopefully, that covered what you asked, but if I missed anything point it out and I'll do my best to answer it.

 

[replover]

I have to say that using 3 or 4 extra thermometers to watch the temperatures is probably overkill. I did it because I'm nuerotic with a dash of obsessive compulsive.

You call that obsessive compulsive? I was planning on getting two thermometers PER TUB! Near heat and away from heat. LOL My python tank has SIX. Two on each end one in the air and one on the floor, and then one in each hide on either side. Talk about obsessive.

Thanks for the help.

 

[zwyatt]

You call that obsessive compulsive? I was planning on getting two thermometers PER TUB! Near heat and away from heat. LOL My python tank has SIX. Two on each end one in the air and one on the floor, and then one in each hide on either side. Talk about obsessive.

Thanks for the help.

Well, I'm more obsessive about other things in life. But, each of my thermometers functions as a cool and warm side thermometer because they are indoor/outdoor. The probe goes in the back of the tub (warm side) and the thermometer itself sits right outside the front of the tub (cool side). All you have to do is flip back and forth between indoor and outdoor to know what the cool and warm temps are and then you don't need 2 whole thermometers per tub

 

[replover]

Yeah I know those. I have one of those for my iguana enclosure. They're great. I got one that shows both in and out on one screen as well as humidity without having to switch buttons. They're really cool.

Speaking of humidity, is that something that isn't usually thought about in snake racks?

 

[zwyatt]

Speaking of humidity, is that something that isn't usually thought about in snake racks?

I thought about it. You can control the amount of humidity in the tubs by having a fewer or greater number of ventilation holes.