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Scale less Corns anyone?

mike17l said:
Well, to some no it does not make a difference, but to a few, some still want to maintain corns as pure as possible.
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too me it is very important, but I relized as you will the captive population is tanted. there is so much emoryi in the corns now . I remember years ago in the early 90's there was this guy at the mid atlantic show named Sam Mandolsi He crossed emoryi into everything. Hypos, butters, anerys, amels, stripes, motleys, I think bloods I'm not sure about the bloods. All were 1/2 emeryi and not lablied as so. He sat a Norm Damms table. Sam told me himself he crossed the emoryi all the morphs he had, then bred the sibs back to eachother to get his breeders. Bosted that they feed better than pure corns. Do you know how many hybrid corns are out there on the market and the people that own them dont know.
 
I suppose there's no way to tell if there's emoryi in your snake's family history without having a very long pedigree for it?
 
Vinman said:
too me it is very important, but I relized as you will the captive population is tanted. there is so much emoryi in the corns now . I remember years ago in the early 90's there was this guy at the mid atlantic show named Sam Mandolsi He crossed emoryi into everything. Hypos, butters, anerys, amels, stripes, motleys, I think bloods I'm not sure about the bloods. All were 1/2 emeryi and not lablied as so. He sat a Norm Damms table. Sam told me himself he crossed the emoryi all the morphs he had, then bred the sibs back to eachother to get his breeders. Bosted that they feed better than pure corns. Do you know how many hybrid corns are out there on the market and the people that own them dont know.
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I know of a breeder in Texas who did the same exact thing but with Kisatchies instead of emoryi. It really is too bad.
 
Ayin said:
I suppose there's no way to tell if there's emoryi in your snake's family history without having a very long pedigree for it?
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There are "markers" that you can look for, but I am not a good person to describe them. I know it has been done on the forum before, perhaps someone will find an old thread and link or quote it here.
 
mike17l said:
I know of a breeder in Texas who did the same exact thing but with Kisatchies instead of emoryi. It really is too bad.
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Yes it is . the fact that a lot of people that got these hybrids live in the native range of corns. I feel bad for Emoryi too as they are getting tanted too. how many escapes of corns got into the emoryi native range.

What kills me is way back in the late 70's some people crossed some of the few albino corns in the hobby on the west coast with emoryi. It was not untill the loves came out with a creamcicles did most of heavy damage start. I never seen the point with making creams as I seen pure corns many years ago that were very close looking to the cream's. with all the other hybrid corn crosses. i know a guy here in NY, Mike Perez he had a 3/4 corn 1/4 cal and bred it to a corn and sells the babies as pure corns . How many others did it with corn crossed to grophers, kings, milks and moutan kings. It detured me from buying any morphs for 4 to 5 years. I just got the ultra gene this year. as I know gray, yellow and black rats and corns will cross in nature. I have seen so many nice animals over the years that I wanted to buy but didn't because of all tainted blood in the corn stock. I need to get the Lava and the Tres. and christmass hypo soon. I also will contune to buy wild corns to add into my stock. I want to keep my stock as pure as possible
 
Vinman said:
too me it is very important, but I relized as you will the captive population is tanted. there is so much emoryi in the corns now . I remember years ago in the early 90's there was this guy at the mid atlantic show named Sam Mandolsi He crossed emoryi into everything. Hypos, butters, anerys, amels, stripes, motleys, I think bloods I'm not sure about the bloods. All were 1/2 emeryi and not lablied as so. He sat a Norm Damms table. Sam told me himself he crossed the emoryi all the morphs he had, then bred the sibs back to eachother to get his breeders. Bosted that they feed better than pure corns. Do you know how many hybrid corns are out there on the market and the people that own them dont know.
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Not that is surprises me, because I see unscrupulous people on a daily basis. Breeding animals I guess is no different. It doesn't make it right and I still believe breeding for scaleless corns is the same.

And before Mike goes on again about the amels. Did he ASK the snakes if they were in pain, or the light bothered them? What was their answer? I feel the is a big difference between breeding for a different color vs. breeding for a total change in anatomy of an animal.
As it had been brought up earlier. Look at the anatomical changes in dogs and cats. None of them have been done to better the animal. Most of the changes that have been done to those 2 species have only hindered the animals in the long run.
 
snakemom1961 said:
Not that is surprises me, because I see unscrupulous people on a daily basis. Breeding animals I guess is no different. It doesn't make it right and I still believe breeding for scaleless corns is the same.

And before Mike goes on again about the amels. Did he ASK the snakes if they were in pain, or the light bothered them? What was their answer? I feel the is a big difference between breeding for a different color vs. breeding for a total change in anatomy of an animal.
As it had been brought up earlier. Look at the anatomical changes in dogs and cats. None of them have been done to better the animal. Most of the changes that have been done to those 2 species have only hindered the animals in the long run.
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What you forget if the animal was in pain it would be stressed out and would not eat. You should know that being you breed snakes. Have you ever seen a scaleless snake in person ??? I have and they are not stressed out. I'm not fighting with you or making fun of you but truthfuly you are making no sence. You are compering apples to oranges when you compare achondroplasia in mammals to reptiles with no scales.
 
snakemom1961 said:
And before Mike goes on again about the amels. Did he ASK the snakes if they were in pain, or the light bothered them? What was their answer? I feel the is a big difference between breeding for a different color vs. breeding for a total change in anatomy of an animal.
As it had been brought up earlier. Look at the anatomical changes in dogs and cats. None of them have been done to better the animal. Most of the changes that have been done to those 2 species have only hindered the animals in the long run.
Click to expand...

Only two alleles are being changed here, in either the amel or the scaleless. The reason that some dogs and cats are screwed up is because of what is known as inbreeding depression. Many generations of inbreeding has allowed deleterious side effects. What we are not seeing in these dogs and cats is a simple point mutation.

Lets look at this from a evolutionary standpoint. Why do random mutations "pop" up? Well it is because of diversity, which drives natural selection. If that mutation helps the animal better fill its role (which for all animals is to reproduce and make babies, passing on their genes), then it is the most fit. In the wild, amels get killed very early on in life, being an amel is not beneficial. But in captivity, amels have thrived their genes are being passed on. The amel animal does not care that the light hurts its eyes (look up how pigment affects eye sight), all it cares is that it is reproducing, no amount of pain or discomfort will negate this fact.

Now on to scaleless, what does that mutation do for them? in the wild? not much. But, in captivity it will help them survive, reproduce, and ultimately pass on their genetic information. The fact that it may be in pain plays no role in the equation. Snake are predators, and predators do not show pain, especially mild irritating type pain. If a dog has a rash, sure it scratches, but it doesn't whine about it, it sucks it up. In the wild that animal would become the prey if it showed weakness. The same is true for snakes. As predators, they do not show pain, so we cannot determine the level of pain that the scaleless (or amel for that matter) cornsnake may or may not be in.

So what is all this saying? If the mutation helps the animal pass on it's genetic information, then the animal ignores most pain.
 
mike17l said:
Only two alleles are being changed here, in either the amel or the scaleless. The reason that some dogs and cats are screwed up is because of what is known as inbreeding depression. Many generations of inbreeding has allowed deleterious side effects. What we are not seeing in these dogs and cats is a simple point mutation.

Lets look at this from a evolutionary standpoint. Why do random mutations "pop" up? Well it is because of diversity, which drives natural selection. If that mutation helps the animal better fill its role (which for all animals is to reproduce and make babies, passing on their genes), then it is the most fit. In the wild, amels get killed very early on in life, being an amel is not beneficial. But in captivity, amels have thrived their genes are being passed on. The amel animal does not care that the light hurts its eyes (look up how pigment affects eye sight), all it cares is that it is reproducing, no amount of pain or discomfort will negate this fact.

Now on to scaleless, what does that mutation do for them? in the wild? not much. But, in captivity it will help them survive, reproduce, and ultimately pass on their genetic information. The fact that it may be in pain plays no role in the equation. Snake are predators, and predators do not show pain, especially mild irritating type pain. If a dog has a rash, sure it scratches, but it doesn't whine about it, it sucks it up. In the wild that animal would become the prey if it showed weakness. The same is true for snakes. As predators, they do not show pain, so we cannot determine the level of pain that the scaleless (or amel for that matter) cornsnake may or may not be in.

So what is all this saying? If the mutation helps the animal pass on it's genetic information, then the animal ignores most pain.
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Mike the first Amel was a wild caught adult male fro NC. They are more likely to get picked off but corns in most of there range spent most of their lives under the ground. Hypo is very common in the wild. Very common in the tampa area.

If you sen the scaleless texas rat in person you would know they were not in pain. Now I seen boas born with scales but paper thin skin which would tear very easy. I seen snakes feel pain they show it very quickly. Now sick is one thing but phyical pain to the skin is another story.
 
Vinman said:
Mike the first Amel was a wild caught adult male fro NC. They are more likely to get picked off but corns in most of there range spent most of their lives under the ground. Hypo is very common in the wild. Very common in the tampa area.

If you sen the scaleless texas rat in person you would know they were not in pain. Now I seen boas born with scales but paper thin skin which would tear very easy. I seen snakes feel pain they show it very quickly. Now sick is one thing but phyical pain to the skin is another story.
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What we are looking at here is levels of pain. There is a pain thresh hold for predators. But, with minor pains and irritations, many times you will not even know they exist. If I stab a snake or inflict some type of immediate and sharp pain on the animal, yeah there will be a response, but long term irritation will have little or no response.
 
We all have to draw our own lines on these issues. I won't carry parrot fish, dyed/injected/tattooed fish, etc. at my shop because I don't want to support the practice. I do carry goldfish, fancy guppies, etc. that would never survive in the wild, and have no issue with it. I'd love to have a scaleless corn. To me it's an interesting mutation.
 
what do you call a mutation?
For me a mutation means a spontanly apearin morph or color
n stuff but scale less is a hybrid breedin with a goal producin
a scale less snake but imo it´s not an mutation!

The only thought i got about this "mutation" is that when i first
started keepin snakes (corns) i was happy bout my first normal
but from time to time i was nearly pushed to get any other morphs
n stuff and every time a new morph raised i just try to fit with it
and at the same moment i ask myself why.
So i arranged with the color breedin but i think this is a way to far
and this is only my own opinion!!
 
The genotype producing the scaleless phenotype is a genetic mutation, regardless of whether said mutation occurs in pure corn snakes or must be introduced through hybridization.
 
don´t realy know she´s callin in riddles.
I know the fact what a mutation is but a scale les corn isn´t a mutation!!!
 
lajes said:
don´t realy know she´s callin in riddles.
I know the fact what a mutation is but a scale les corn isn´t a mutation!!!
Click to expand...

Then you don't know what a mutation is.

In biology, a mutation is a randomly derived change to the nucleotide sequence of the genetic material of an organism.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

It's genetic mutation. It was introduced through hybridization. It's still a genetic mutation.
 
Mike, tried to rep you, but I apparently I've been showering a little too much love on ya.

Vin, I repped you.

Glad to hear I wasn't coming off like the Riddler....
 
sry vima only the fact i´m german doenst means that i don´t understand your language or the term mutation but for me a scaleless corns is a line bred thing nothing else.
and i do understand everythin very well don´t worry!!!!
 
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