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Ultra Mystery...
- Thread starter Kat
- Start date
huneymonkey
New member
Ultra breeding results
Here are some of my results from breeding the Ultra Hypos. These babies are from a Butter Motley that was hatched by Mike Shiver from an Ultra to Ultra pairing, so I believe it is homo Ultra Hypo as well. As far as I can tell from what I have read in these posts is that people are considering that the Ultra Hypo gene is dominant to the standard hypo gene (I am very tired, but I want to contribute). I hope I am understanding this correctly. This male was bred to a ghost motley and all of the babies are just normal motleys. I hope others can make sense of what I am posting, because it is late and I have been overwhelmed with work and of course.....Corn snakes. The male was bred to a few others, that I will try and post the results of soon.
Take care,
Jason
Here are some of my results from breeding the Ultra Hypos. These babies are from a Butter Motley that was hatched by Mike Shiver from an Ultra to Ultra pairing, so I believe it is homo Ultra Hypo as well. As far as I can tell from what I have read in these posts is that people are considering that the Ultra Hypo gene is dominant to the standard hypo gene (I am very tired, but I want to contribute). I hope I am understanding this correctly. This male was bred to a ghost motley and all of the babies are just normal motleys. I hope others can make sense of what I am posting, because it is late and I have been overwhelmed with work and of course.....Corn snakes. The male was bred to a few others, that I will try and post the results of soon.
Take care,
Jason
Attachments
SODERBERGD
New member
butter X ultra motley
I have three or four clutches to show here, but will only have time tonight to show one of them. The others will have to wait a day or two. 'Tis the season to be busy.
I bred a butter female I got back in 1996 to an ultra motley. I confess that I've never bred the butter to anything other than butters since I've had her so I don't know what else it might be het. for (if anything).
Here is the adult pair. Then, some of the babies. I got eight albinos, eight light hypos (presumably ultras) and five dark hypos. I'll get better comparison shots when I get a chance.
I have three or four clutches to show here, but will only have time tonight to show one of them. The others will have to wait a day or two. 'Tis the season to be busy.
I bred a butter female I got back in 1996 to an ultra motley. I confess that I've never bred the butter to anything other than butters since I've had her so I don't know what else it might be het. for (if anything).
Here is the adult pair. Then, some of the babies. I got eight albinos, eight light hypos (presumably ultras) and five dark hypos. I'll get better comparison shots when I get a chance.
Attachments
Sheesh! And I thought what I already suspected about Hypomelanism was enough to drive us crazy. This is going to get insane......
I can't wait to try to explain to people that if you breed a GoldDust to an Amber you will just get Caramels, but breed it to a Butter and you will get Ambers. :crazy02:
And when they ask what those Ambers are het for, my head will burst into flames.
Does breeding GoldDust to GoldDust give you Siamese cats?
I can't wait to try to explain to people that if you breed a GoldDust to an Amber you will just get Caramels, but breed it to a Butter and you will get Ambers. :crazy02:
And when they ask what those Ambers are het for, my head will burst into flames.
Does breeding GoldDust to GoldDust give you Siamese cats?
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
SODERBERGD said:
This is the breeding I saw in the emails that really got me thinking that the Ultra is a possible allele with Amel. Are there other possibilities?
If the Ultra in this case was het for Amel and Hypo, which is extremely possible, and the Butter was het for Hypo, which is also possible, we may get results similar to this result. Homos for Amel Hypos, would most likely look different than the Hypos and Amels from the same clutch.
If the Butter was also het for Ultra, which seems unlikely, we could get very similar results as well. Amels, Ultras, Hypos, Amel Hypos, Amel Ultras, and Hypo Ultras would all be possible. Some may look the same, but some combos may look a little different as well.
Since the Standard Hypo has been introduced into the Ultra mix, by breeding them to Ambers, it would be possible to produce Ultras, Hypos and Hypo Ultras in the same clutch. It is very possible that they will all be a different phenotype. Now, with Caramel added to the mix, it is very possible to get three different phenotypes of an “Amber” looking Corn. Are some of the “Gold Dust” (Ultra Caramel) Corns actually Homo for Ultra, Hypo and Caramel? Will a Homo Ultra Caramel look the same or different than a Homo Hypo, Ultra, Caramel Corn? To complicate things further, the amel gene can be and will be added to some of the mixes.
I'm with Joe and Rich. Insufficient data to make a decision, so far. :shrugs: IMHO, it would simplify the problem by going back to stock that have fewer mutations to confuse the issue.
FWIW, albino in the laboratory mouse is the equivalent of amelanistic in the corn snake. There are half a dozen alleles of albino in the lab mouse that reduce but do not eliminate black pigment. So I think the possibility that ultrahypo is an allele of amelanistic is definitely worth testing. But don't get your hopes up too much. Brutal facts slay beautiful theories with great regularity.
FWIW, albino in the laboratory mouse is the equivalent of amelanistic in the corn snake. There are half a dozen alleles of albino in the lab mouse that reduce but do not eliminate black pigment. So I think the possibility that ultrahypo is an allele of amelanistic is definitely worth testing. But don't get your hopes up too much. Brutal facts slay beautiful theories with great regularity.
SODERBERGD
New member
huneymonkey
New member
Opal male to Ultra Hypo female
The ones Don hatched from the ultra motley male sure do resemble the ones from my clutch of Butter motley to Ghost motley.
These just started hatching yesterday. To say the least, I was quite surprised. The male is from Rich which I purchased in 02. All of the babies look the same as this one. It almost appears to be Ultra Hypo, but they don't look quite the same as the ones Mike Shiver produced. I saw every single clutch that he produced from the Ultra Hypos, and while these are similar they are not quite the same. They look somewhere between standard and ultra hypo.
The ones Don hatched from the ultra motley male sure do resemble the ones from my clutch of Butter motley to Ghost motley.
These just started hatching yesterday. To say the least, I was quite surprised. The male is from Rich which I purchased in 02. All of the babies look the same as this one. It almost appears to be Ultra Hypo, but they don't look quite the same as the ones Mike Shiver produced. I saw every single clutch that he produced from the Ultra Hypos, and while these are similar they are not quite the same. They look somewhere between standard and ultra hypo.
Attachments
So Pirate55
New member
Quick Question
I'm seeing that the different hypo's has everyone pulling their hair out and i'm trying to keep up the best i can, but i gotta ask one thing just to be sure.
I'm aware that there is the "hypo" form and the "ultra" form but when i see people typing "ultra hypo", are they talking about the "ultra form of the hypo gene" or a combination of the 2?
I'm seeing that the different hypo's has everyone pulling their hair out and i'm trying to keep up the best i can, but i gotta ask one thing just to be sure.
I'm aware that there is the "hypo" form and the "ultra" form but when i see people typing "ultra hypo", are they talking about the "ultra form of the hypo gene" or a combination of the 2?
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
Ultra Hypo = Genotype Ultra
Usually, when you see Ultra Hypo it is referring to the single genotype Ultra Hypo. Just to recap, we have Standard Hypo Type A, Sunkissed Hypo Type B, Lava Hypo Type C and Ultra Hypo Type D so far. We could come up with a long list of Common Named Hypos.
When I refer to a corn that is double Homo for Hypo and Ultra, I always list them as Homo for both by adding the and or putting an apostrophe between them. I would like to list the Hypo first, to eliminate most of the confusion but I don‘t always do that. In this thread, it seems that when everybody refers to an Ultra Hypo it is the Single genotype of Ultra. They may also be Homo for Hypo but it is not known. It is also very possible for somebody to have a hypo out of Shivers Ultra project that they think is an Ultra, but is actually a Standard Hypo. Standard hypos can vary a great deal.
It seems as if we are being fairly consistent with the way each of us are referring to each genotype and phenotype when we talk about the Hypo group. Hypos have been discussed perhaps more than any other morph recently and we are starting to get our “Corn Jargon” down fairly well
Usually, when you see Ultra Hypo it is referring to the single genotype Ultra Hypo. Just to recap, we have Standard Hypo Type A, Sunkissed Hypo Type B, Lava Hypo Type C and Ultra Hypo Type D so far. We could come up with a long list of Common Named Hypos.
When I refer to a corn that is double Homo for Hypo and Ultra, I always list them as Homo for both by adding the and or putting an apostrophe between them. I would like to list the Hypo first, to eliminate most of the confusion but I don‘t always do that. In this thread, it seems that when everybody refers to an Ultra Hypo it is the Single genotype of Ultra. They may also be Homo for Hypo but it is not known. It is also very possible for somebody to have a hypo out of Shivers Ultra project that they think is an Ultra, but is actually a Standard Hypo. Standard hypos can vary a great deal.
It seems as if we are being fairly consistent with the way each of us are referring to each genotype and phenotype when we talk about the Hypo group. Hypos have been discussed perhaps more than any other morph recently and we are starting to get our “Corn Jargon” down fairly well
So Pirate55
New member
that's what i thought but i wasnt sure. thanks joe. this is why i leave the experimenting up to you guys....that and the fact i'm a broke college student with very little room
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
They may look like something between a Hypo and Ultra because they are a result of two morphs on the same allele and a new look we have not seen before. This is another Amel X Ultra Breeding that seems to indicate that Ultra is an allele to Amel.huneymonkey said:
Another possible reason for the results of the hatch would be that either the Opal had to be Homo for Ultra or Hypo and/or the Ultra was Homo for Hypo. This scenario seems unlikely, but the Ultra could easily be homo for Hypo and since Rich’s policy of possible hets, is to let the buyer find out what they carry, the Opal could be homo for Hypo. Again, this seems very unlikely.
Considering the number of clutches that we are starting to see that indicate that Ultra is and allele to Amel, it would seem that the evidence is leaning heavily in that direction. Each time, we or I can come up with other possible explanations, but come on, they can not all be explained away by possible hets for hypo or Ultra.
The chances that every breeding that we are seeing between Ultra and Amels that produce a dark eyed Amel or Hypo looking hatchling are all carrying hidden recessive genes, is becoming very unlikely.
Kat
I'm talkin' to YOU.
Agreed, Joe. The odds are starting to get a little slim. The next step, methinks, is to breed ultras to as many amels as possible next year, and see if we get any contradictory evidence. Up for doing another breeding loan? I really only have one 'homozygous-for-amel' type female that has given me eggs in the past few years (partly because Amel morphs aren't exactly my favs... so I don't keep many). I'm now somewhat regretting selling my blizzard female... after all, she turned out to be het butter too... so I could've hatched some ultra ambers next year, assuming our conclusions are correct. (Such is life...)
-Kat
The next step, methinks, is to breed ultras to as many amels as possible next year, and see if we get any contradictory evidence. Up for doing another breeding loan? I really only have one 'homozygous-for-amel' type female that has given me eggs in the past few years (partly because Amel morphs aren't exactly my favs... so I don't keep many). I'm now somewhat regretting selling my blizzard female... after all, she turned out to be het butter too... so I could've hatched some ultra ambers next year, assuming our conclusions are correct. (Such is life...)-Kat
Kat
I'm talkin' to YOU.
Actually, assuming the hypothesis is true, what WOULD you call something that's homozygous for caramel and motley, and has the ultra/amel combination?
This is going to get confusing...
Perhaps we should propose a work-in-progress name for the het ultra/het amel combo, atleast to give us something to refer to until we can prove/disprove the hypothesis?
I'd like to throw out the possible name of pseudohypo... or maybe pseudo-ultra, in which case the above combination would be a pseudo-amber motley, or something.
-Kat
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
Genetic Experts help!
What is the correct term for these dark eyed Hypo/Amels if they are a result of the Ultra being on the same allele as Amel if they are au? Are they het for both Ultra and Amel? This would be confussing since double hets are usually on different alleles and normal looking How about half het for Ultra and amel? LOL There must be another term for it when they show a mixed phenotype between the two.
I don’t see how they could be Homo for Ultra and Amel. Are they homo utlra/amels? Is it possible for a corn to be double homo for Ultra and Amel if they are on the same allele? uuaa. How about triple homo uuaaau or what ever the au would be considered? This also doen’t seem possible if they are on the same allele.
What is the correct term for these dark eyed Hypo/Amels if they are a result of the Ultra being on the same allele as Amel if they are au? Are they het for both Ultra and Amel? This would be confussing since double hets are usually on different alleles and normal looking How about half het for Ultra and amel? LOL There must be another term for it when they show a mixed phenotype between the two.
I don’t see how they could be Homo for Ultra and Amel. Are they homo utlra/amels? Is it possible for a corn to be double homo for Ultra and Amel if they are on the same allele? uuaa. How about triple homo uuaaau or what ever the au would be considered? This also doen’t seem possible if they are on the same allele.
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
Kat said:
Sounds great! I would love to get some corns from Ultras. I happen to like Amels a great deal and have oodles of them. Perhaps we should get down and dirty and throw something else in the mix like lavender. An Opal would be a good prospect. ( I am totally jealous of Jason’s Opal X Ultra hatchlings, Jason want to trade some or sell any?) A Snow Motley would also be cool. All Deathy babies or half, depending on how it is going to work. How about a Butter Motley! That would be good! What would a Ultra/Amel Caramel look like or be called?
“Joe, you read my mind... what do you think of the pseudo- terminology?”
-Kat
It looks like we read each others mind again. Unless there is a correct term for it, I am up for anything, but the shorter the better. Anything would be better than saying they are a result of the Ultra and Amel being on the same allele over and over again.
huneymonkey
New member
ecreipeoj said:
Here are some pics of the ones I got from Mike from an Ultra Motley het Amel to an Ultra het Motley and Amel pairing.
Pic 1 Is the Butter motley which should answer Joes question (I am not sure but it seems we are climbing a very slippery slope if we explore this hypo being an allele to amel possiblity)
2 is the Ultra Hypo Motley (dark eyes)
3 is the Amel motley (red eyes)
4 Is an Amber het motley
5 is an Ultra hypo het Motley poss amel. Actually now that the eggs hatched, I don't believe she is het amel.
