Legitimate Reason Wanted

[wstphal]

P.S. Each snake who takes f/t consistently gets f/t... so what am I doing wrong exactly? I'm not insisting on feeding live to the frozen-eaters, so you can't say I deny anyone the chance.

Well, it's clear you're looking out for your snakes. Personally, if the choice is supervised live feeding or death of starvation because all sensible efforts to get the snake to switch to f/t & p/k have failed, supervised live feeding is the only answer.

BTW, killing mice isn't bad. Home made CO2 chambers work fine, and cervical dislocation is easy to learn. It's been discussed here before. I did it in a lab.

 

[Hypancistrus]

And yes, I've tried all the tricks to convert my BPs & live-only corn... braining, heating, paper bags, doing the zombie dance, etc. Some snakes are just not going to take f/t, and with BPs in particular their pickiness can be life-threatening.

We've been keeping ball pythons for years and never had one that would not convert. It's a matter of patience and time.

I don't feed live unless I have to because it eliminates the fear and distress of the feeder animal.

If you can avoid adding fear and distress to a necessary death, why not do it?

 

[Lolo]

We've been keeping ball pythons for years and never had one that would not convert. It's a matter of patience and time.

I must be doing something wrong then, because I've had SUCH a low success rate.

I'd actually love some "magic tips," since it would make my life (not to mention the rodent's lives) easier... but this probably isn't the thread for it, so maybe we can start a new one? That seems more constructive than bashing people who feed live, don't you think? Admittedly, I'm a stubborn redhead and not all that patient - but I am willing to listen!

 

[wstphal]

I must be doing something wrong then, because I've had SUCH a low success rate.

I'd actually love some "magic tips," since it would make my life (not to mention the rodent's lives) easier... but this probably isn't the thread for it, so maybe we can start a new one? That seems more constructive than bashing people who feed live, don't you think? Admittedly, I'm a stubborn redhead and not all that patient - but I am willing to listen!

I'd love to read the tips too. I haven't got any live-only snakes at the moment, but it could happen.

Lolo, from my "vast" experience -- 2 beepers -- they are definitely pickier and weirder about eating than colubrids. That seems to be confirmed by what reading I have done on BP forums. And I get the vague impression BP breeders are more willing to keep & breed live-only snakes, so if there is a genetic component to it, it hasn't been selected against, whereas I get the somewhat less vague impression that corn snake breeders have been selecting for snakes that start out eating mice (instead of the tiny anoles that I have read are the common prey of wild hatchlings) and take to f/t well. So you may not be doing anything wrong, you just may have some BPs that are stubborn picky eaters.

I'm not trying to start or continue any fights. I do see one legitimate reason for live rodent meals -- the snake will otherwise starve itself to death -- and avoiding either of those outcomes is important but if I am responsible for caring for a snake, I have to prevent self-starvation. Even if that means feeding live under close supervision, or rehoming the snake with someone who is willing to do that.

I started off thinking that I would rehome. Now I don't know. I would make huge efforts to get the snake onto fresh p/k, I do know that.

 

[Kuzco]

I can tell you from my own experience of years of feeding Live that even the "best killing" snake with get bitten... all my snakes that I fed live to have a scar or 2 from my ignorance.


All my snakes converted with out any problems. I warm up the mouse in 100ish degree water, make sure its thawed all the way, and dangle it above them all they all gobble them up

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Well I don't have any tips, since like I said 3 of the four ate f/t right away. With the last one I just offered it f/t just like the others. When he refused, I took out the old food, tossed it, and tried again the next week. After 3 weeks he was hungry enough to eat it.

 

[wax32]

Ok I know I have head problems but I don't understand the f/t con of power outage. Does this imply keeping the mice frozen or lack of way to warm mice? Do power outages happen that often in other places? I guess I mostly don't understand cause we have never had the power go out long enough that food in the fridge goes bad and I am sure that the snakes could wait till the the power comes back on to eat, if it is the warming issue. :shrugs:

Hundreds of mice thawing out is the issue... but it's really a non-issue.

 

[Lolo]

I can tell you from my own experience of years of feeding Live that even the "best killing" snake with get bitten... all my snakes that I fed live to have a scar or 2 from my ignorance.

Not that I'm okay with my snake getting bitten or scarred, but how many people here have a scar or two? I couldn't even begin to count my small scars, so I'm thinking one in a snake's lifetime isn't unusual or horrible. My dog also has a scar from one of our park excursions, but we still go there regularly and have loads of fun!

Of course I want to avoid that happening, but do you get what I'm saying? For the record, NONE of my snakes have been bitten - but I've only been keeping them for (almost) 2 years, so I can't really brag about it yet. And now that I think about it, the ONE feeding mishap I've witnessed was with a thawed mouse... can't remember who it was, but one of the corns got a tooth stuck while trying to nom a mouse. Does that mean I made an ignorant mistake by feeding f/t?

All my snakes converted with out any problems. I warm up the mouse in 100ish degree water, make sure its thawed all the way, and dangle it above them all they all gobble them up

That's what I do, and only one or two have ever gone for it... oh well.

 

[Lolo]

I'd love to read the tips too. I haven't got any live-only snakes at the moment, but it could happen.

Lolo, from my "vast" experience -- 2 beepers -- they are definitely pickier and weirder about eating than colubrids. That seems to be confirmed by what reading I have done on BP forums. And I get the vague impression BP breeders are more willing to keep & breed live-only snakes, so if there is a genetic component to it, it hasn't been selected against, whereas I get the somewhat less vague impression that corn snake breeders have been selecting for snakes that start out eating mice (instead of the tiny anoles that I have read are the common prey of wild hatchlings) and take to f/t well. So you may not be doing anything wrong, you just may have some BPs that are stubborn picky eaters.

There's definitely a different attitude among BP keepers/breeders, and I was initially shocked at the feelings about live feeders on here... I've never heard of a BP being "culled" for not taking f/t, and to be honest you'd get bashed hard for admitting to that on my BP forum. We typically start our hatchlings on live, and some (most?) don't even bother converting before they're sold - I don't recall any of my purchases being f/t converted before they arrived. When I got my first snake, which was a ball, I asked about frozen feeding and he said "You can try, but don't hold your breath." So I think corn owners are a bit spoiled on this issue, LOL.

I started off thinking that I would rehome. Now I don't know. I would make huge efforts to get the snake onto fresh p/k, I do know that.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I develop an emotional attachment to every snake in my care... even the bratty Betty, who I threaten to sell even though I know it's not gonna happen (unless maybe I found the perfect new home for her). I don't give up easily on the pets I love and care for, so I'd try everything in my power before euthanizing or re-homing a snake - or any animal for that matter. Not including those I breed for the purpose of selling, of course.

 

[Kuzco]

Not that I'm okay with my snake getting bitten or scarred, but how many people here have a scar or two? I couldn't even begin to count my small scars, so I'm thinking one in a snake's lifetime isn't unusual or horrible. My dog also has a scar from one of our park excursions, but we still go there regularly and have loads of fun!

Of course I want to avoid that happening, but do you get what I'm saying? For the record, NONE of my snakes have been bitten - but I've only been keeping them for (almost) 2 years, so I can't really brag about it yet. And now that I think about it, the ONE feeding mishap I've witnessed was with a thawed mouse... can't remember who it was, but one of the corns got a tooth stuck while trying to nom a mouse. Does that mean I made an ignorant mistake by feeding f/t?

I don't agree with the premise of your argument.

 

[Lolo]

I don't agree with the premise of your argument.

That's okay... obviously we're not all going to agree on every point. And sorry if that post was a bit rambling, but I was just trying to say that "riskiness" is relative - and doesn't necessarily equal irresponsibility. Bottom line, we all the right to determine what's best for ourselves & our pets.

 

[Outcast]

We all need to take a step back and think. The people who feed F/T, decide to feed that way because they do not want to see something horrible happen to their snake, like what happened to the one Tricksterpup has pictures of. The ones who feed live, do so for their own reasons, whether it is to save money or whatever their reasons. There are some people who will listen to reason and look at pictures and say, "OMG I didnt know that could happen" those tend to try to switch to F/T, I know I was one of them. Then you have the people that do not think it can happen to their animal until it does, they are then remorseful and ask for help, because their snakes bites just got infected. They learn the lesson the hard way.. But, then you have the people who feed live and never have a problem, they are the lucky ones.
I say, to each his own. We can try to educate people on the benefits of F/T, but if they are unwilling to listen, and look at the proof, then there is no point in harping on the subject every time it comes up. It is the same thing with co-habitation. I was guilty of it until I saw what can come of it. There are people who do it, and people who don't. Just try to educate people on the downfalls of it and if they want to listen they will, if they do not want to listen they won't. What happens to the snake is their problem, no matter how much you try to help, If they do not want it, they will not accept it.

I just thought I would post this again, seeing as some people still want to fight about the issue.

 

[army_greywolf]

Since this is still going I will elaborate some thoughts on the subject I think haven't been well covered.

First I want to cover cohab of frozen feeders and people food. There is no case study on the subject but it bears reminding that there is a definitive and proven university of wisconsin study on bacterial and viral exponential increases in frozen food. I believe this applies by the same token to f/t. Allow me to explain.

When you purchase a live mouse it has a given amount of parasite and symbiotic bacteria present. This amount is generally a constant as the mouse immune system is rendering present bacteria obselete. So this is our control.

When you kill a mouse, the bacterial count rises INCREDIBLY fast, it's generally agreed that this is the chief reason for cannibalism, mice eating their babies or each other, because the animal is either sick or may have already died. Some may say otherwise but most lab mice and rats are consumed for this observed reason. It is a natural sanitization of their environment.

Anyways not to digress but my point on the subject is simple. Once a mouse is dead it has a timer. After about 6 hours of room temperature it's generally considered unsafe for both lab work and assuming by the same token, reptilian consumption.

Freezers only slow the process of decomp they do NOT stop the process, hence the term freezer burn. Compared to red meat, most vegetables and pork products mice of a fractional realistic shelf life below freezing. Two reasons, one, they are generally killed with unprocessed food in their system and they are not evacuated of feces or urine. Packing is another chief concern, where mice that are NOT cohabbed with each other can and often do end up in the same container for shipping, thus a bad batch can lead to MAJOR problems. With that I bring another point, frozen food leeches away vitamins and minerals, the nutrition of a f/t prey item is all they get, there is nothing most supplement with. And the same studies on bacterial content have also been done on comparison of fresh vs frozen vitamin and mineral content, so it stands to reason that f/t is actually less nutritious than a comparable fresh kill or live animal. By what degree is debatable but the point is valid. I have however compared both scale coloration, depth and reflectivity (yanno that sheen I'm talking about?) as well as musclature and eye clarity, alertness and so forth between f/t only eaters and live, or fresh killed eaters. It would require an actual side by side comparison and I unfortunately cannot fulfill that at this time, but it bears mentioning.

I understand it's convienent, even philosophically so. You can sleep better at night knowing your not contributing to mousy murder. But at the same time I think you and I use this term broadly, understand the actual dangers in feeding a frozen product to a reptile. For every bite or injury there is a regurge, ailment or death from a f/t so that arguement however in appearance is invalid.

Another point to make there is no such thing as use and reuse in f/t for the above reason you do NOT nor should you refreeze an f/t animal. This is considered a definitive no-no. Why? Because quite simply frozen-thawed food is considered up to 50 times more bacterially potent by the FDA than fresh (by same "shelf life criteria" meaning at the limits of shelf life for each product). Whilst you cook a frozen meal you don't cook a mouse to remove the bad bacteria. So please if you do feed f/t don't reuse it.

And that leads me to my next point, Cost. Yes I said it, It has proven to be cheaper to raise and breed mice in every way than make regular purchases of f/t and have some that are thrown away due to picky eaters, or refusals. Just the facts ma'am but if you post how much you pay for your f/t I can beat that cost every single time often two or three fold.

Finally and I think that's enough for now, but I want to cover the obvious arguement. Injury. It was covered somewhat already, but in certain instances we handle feeding in particular ways.

For safety reasons we supervise EVERY feeding.

For size and feed habit reasons we feed only "defenseless" rat fuzzies or pinks to our juveniles or adults whom may be in a shed cycle or otherwise are not fully capable of immediate strike and constriction.

Presentation is key, only our proven HKs (Hunter Killers) are allowed to ambush their prey, the rest are presented pray by the head, where they may make a clean safe strike and constrict before we release them to finish the job. Often the entire process takes less than three seconds after the cover has been removed. When you feed live you will notice feeding is INCREDIBLY efficient and goes faster than you expect.

Again, read carefully, under no circumstances are my snakes left to their own devices with a prey item, consequently if they are in shed, they most likely will not be fed until it is safe to do so.

Having fed both f/t and live, and fresh killed to colubrids and pythons I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that most of my snakes appear to be incrementally more aware, and curious, I've also noted contrary to common belief some of my non-handler snakes are actually calmer and allow more contact without becoming defensive or aggressive. We think this may have some overlapping effect from the mental stimulis of the feeding, although it is pure speculation.

Once again I remind all you all that I have one wild caught snake that we are rehabilitating that would make very LITTLE sense to feed f/t he will always be fed live and left to his own devices to pursue his prey and make the strike. I also have another W/C snake that is a live feeder only, and two more that are extremely difficult to feed f/t and it is not worth the effort and the refusal to feeds to attempt conversion.

I am a very very passionate reptile keeper, I love what I do and the snakes we have and I won't accept anyone's belief that I am a lesser reptile keeper for our methods. By the same results our snakes are a blast to own and from owner to owner observations it may actually be a real ownership benefit not just for time or cost.

 

[Fatman608]

Feeding live just means you like to hear the mouse squeal it's little head off or you do not have the nerve to kill the mouse yourself.

Love the Fatman

 

[Outcast]

For every bite or injury there is a regurge, ailment or death from a f/t so that arguement however in appearance is invalid.

I do not doubt that you have experience with snakes, but most of what you said there seems to be pure speculation. Please elaborate on the above quote, because I have never heard of any ailments or deaths from F/T.

 

[Fatman608]

First I want to cover cohab of frozen feeders and people food. There is no case study on the subject but it bears reminding that there is a definitive and proven university of wisconsin study on bacterial and viral exponential increases in frozen food.

First you say "There is no case study on the subject" then you contradict saying there is a "university of wisconsin study" so which is it and why don't you show a link to the study or did you just make a study up yourself.

Love the Fatman

 

[army_greywolf]

Quite simply, I am suggesting there is a link between the condition and age of the f/t item and the possibility that a regurge, ailment or death could be related.

Think about this, sure 99% of feedings go just fine, both live and f/t but even f/t has drawbacks, namely in the quality of the item. There is little quality control, and to be frank, having my own stock allows me to control the health of my feeders. Essentially I am providing a stop gap between source and snake. I worry that even in transit f/t may partially thaw. It doesn't have to be all of them, thats the problem, if only ten out of a pack of 500 sufficiently thaws, it can ruin the safe use of all surrounding feed items. I don't think anyone really takes that into consideration. I don't want anyone being ignorant in simply saying f/t is safer because "it just is".

It will be incredibly difficult to link any f/t feeding to an ailment or death, because this is the only non control factor a snake encounters in it's habitat that can make it sick of which you would not be able to readily detect. However it needs to be understood that if your animal regurges or gets sick or had a bad "BM" it IS possible your f/t supply might be at fault. This is especially true if the viv is otherwise clean and the water is regularly changed.

I just wanted to point out there is an ever increasing risk with your f/t stock the longer it is unused in your freezer. Thus, buying in bulk, may not be the best of ideas. I suggest you store your adult mice no more than 90 days and pinks should have a 30 day turn around due to size.

What I am saying is that if there is disagreement to the statement I made that you quoted you would then be left to suggest the only other option, the snake regurged got sick and or died because of husbandry, which DOES happen, but you the owner know your snakes and their homes, so if your not a bad owner/keeper of snakes and you keep up with their vivs, what else is there to suggest? The only other outside source that can affect their health? Hmmm.

 

[army_greywolf]

First you say "There is no case study on the subject" then you contradict saying there is a "university of wisconsin study" so which is it and why don't you show a link to the study or did you just make a study up yourself.

Love the Fatman

I would attempt to educate you, but that requires both you to be receptive and me to have patience.

The study UW Madison did was on frozen food, aka people food. I merely related a proven study by the same material to anothe frozen food, for snakes. Don't read too deeply into that I sometimes mix up and have grammar errors.

 

[army_greywolf]

That study was done a long time ago, I dredged it up several years ago for a paper I did on the effects of frozen foods on nutrition. If it bears mentioning, you can find case studies performed by HEINZ, Altova Foods and University of Washington doing research on the best possible methods of prep, packing and ultimately freezing including the rate of freeze and the storage temperature. The lower the temp the better the flavor retention, but protein stored at such a low temp has high probability of breaking down so there were many industry studies in the 90s and even lately to attempt to manufacture products that are close or equal to their fresh or canned equivalents which is no easy task.

I googled some of this and rather than post links, just do the same, it's pretty obvious improvements have been made, but how much can you improve f/t mice without exponentially increasing the cost or introducing a supplement. I would prefer you reach your own conclusions on the subject but at the same time I am trying to extend a courtesy for both sides as I understand the reasons.

 

[Fatman608]

Freezers only slow the process of decomp they do NOT stop the process, hence the term freezer burn.

You really do need to find out what freezer burn is because it has nothing to do with decomposision. Good try if I was under the age of 15.

Freezer Burn is - the loss of water molecules causing the meat to become dehydrated.

People dehydrate meat to slow down decomposision and they call it JERKY. I do not know about you but jerky seems to last a very long time.

Love the Fatman