Which female will be best for him?

Hi all! Breeding season is in full swing around here and I've been pleasantly surprised to find that one of my young males (a 2005) has already reached a bare minimum weight for breeding.

Connie wrote in a post ages back that she's had success with males as small as a little under 100g but do you fellow breeders out there have any advice to offer me for my situation?


My 96g Ultramel male who hatched last september and eats like a horse has 2 potential 1st girlfriends and I plan to introduce him to the lucky lady when he makes 125g. I have 2 options for him...a well grown (about 500g) 2003 amel who was bred for the first time in 2005 and gave me 10 lovely eggs or a 2004 sunglow motley who has recently passed 300g and has never been introduced to a male before.

Would it be better to put him with a proven female who might let him get on with the job quicker but is 5 times his weight or with a smaller female whose attitude towards mating has not yet been established?

I've never paired up a male smaller than about 250g so this is new territory for me. The genetics of each female is irrelevant here as they both make excellent choices and will eventually be both paired up with him...I'd just like help deciding who will be the one to pop his cherry!

Real life advice from people with experience in this matter would be greatly appreciated as I figure he'll probably make weight by mid march at the latest!

hey adele.
not sure he would be able to handle a 500g female at only 100g himself. cant see him being pushy enough, hope so though (i'm 1st in line for the babies lol)

I would almost be worried about the big girl eating the little man.. I would certainly watch what is going on.. You seem to get corns that grow exceptionally large and quick.. Best luck..

Regards.. T and J

TandJ said:

You seem to get corns that grow exceptionally large and quick.. Best luck..

Regards.. T and J

Click to expand...

Yeah, I use the same steroids as Dean ....and for each one I have that grows like a weed, I have those that grow frustratingly slowly!


I am 1st to admit that I'm in a rush to get this guy to pass on his genes but I'm not going to risk him becoming anyones dinner!

Hmmmm.....can't say as I have ever heard of an adult eating another corn. Babies on rare occasions, yes, but never heard of an adult eating its potential mate. shrug?

I can see your dilemma though in which female would be best. They both have their pros and cons. My suggestion would be to try and breed him to which ever one produces follicles first and is ready for a mate. If it doesn't work out with that one, then try the other when she is ready. If both are ready at the same time, try him with the one you most want him bred with, if that doesn't work try the other one. But I would do the breeding when you have time to watch the progress and make sure the female is ready. That would be how I would handle it. I am sure others may have other ideas of how they would do so.

Best of luck with the breeding's no matter which girl is the "lucky" one.

My vote - breed with the sunglow motley female.
:cheers: my 2 cents

Hmmm, well I have a month or so to figure out who he'll go with. I've brumated and warmed the larger female so it's most likely she'll be the first with follicles whilst the smaller female has recently made 300g so she's not actually been cooled at all. It's less likely that she has ripe follicles in her. I was going to 'save' my big female to breed with her son (little butter) as soon as he's big enough but that would be closer to late summer. Breeding little Ultramel to the Amel het caramel would be handy as he's 50% het caramel and it would be likely that I'd find out if he is in fact het from that pairing but on the other hand, he's het anery and motley and the sunglow motley would on average produce 50% motley from a pairing with him and possibly Ultramel anery as she's poss het anery....


...decisions, decisions, decisions!!!

DO IT, DO IT, DO IT!! :grin01:

OK, OK, OK!!!!

-hehehe :crazy02:

princess said:

Yeah, I use the same steroids as Dean ....and for each one I have that grows like a weed, I have those that grow frustratingly slowly!
!

Click to expand...

Yep, I have the same situation. My successes have been blown way out of proportion. Not every snake responds to horse-steroids-- not even mine. You do your best, and the rest is up to them.

Here is a personal experience from Last year. We bred our '99/'00 475gr Okeetee female to our '03 82gr Candy Cane male. They hooked up as soon as I put them together. I then separated them (the same day). 25 days, or so, latter we had 23 eggs with 100% fertility. 2 months latter all 23 eggs hatched.

Based on that experience, if it was me, I would go with the older proven female.

~Jeff C.

3-3-3 rule?

princess said:

My 96g Ultramel male who hatched last september and eats like a horse has 2 potential 1st girlfriends and I plan to introduce him to the lucky lady when he makes 125g. I have 2 options for him...a well grown (about 500g) 2003 amel who was bred for the first time in 2005 and gave me 10 lovely eggs or a 2004 sunglow motley who has recently passed 300g and has never been introduced to a male before.

Click to expand...

Wasn't it you who was saying you don't breed female Corns until 3 years of age? Sorry if it was someone else, but I thought that was you.

No, I never said that I follow the 3x3 rule to the letter. It is a guideline for people interested in breeding but personal judgement and evaluation based upon experience are taken into account too and are perhaps in many cases, more valuable than reading a book...

I have in fact never mated a female lighter than 340g and by the time they get to that weight they're well and truely over 3 feet. I however don't feel it's necessary to wait until the female has passed her 3rd birthday if she meets the other two parameters by 16 months.

Sexual and reproductive maturity in corns is gagued on size and weight rather than age.

Jeff, that's great about the clutch you had but I wonder if it could have been from retained sperm. According to Kathy Love's manual (which is my bible!), in her extensive experience, corns wil lay between 31 and 45 days of mating, averaging on 39 days. Just some food for thought...but brilliant if it did in fact work out for you! :cheers:

princess said:

Jeff, that's great about the clutch you had but I wonder if it could have been from retained sperm. According to Kathy Love's manual (which is my bible!), in her extensive experience, corns wil lay between 31 and 45 days of mating, averaging on 39 days. Just some food for thought...but brilliant if it did in fact work out for you! :cheers:

Click to expand...

Thanks for the observation. However, just like the 3x3 rule nothing is wrote in stone (at least not now-a-days ). I know that it was not sperm retention for a couple of reasons. 1) The breeding prior was over a year before the one with the small male. Given that the odds of her having a clutch of 23 eggs with 100% fertility is highly unlikely. 2) The male prior was proven to not be het for Amel. Over half of her clutch was Amel. Now I agree this does not 100% prove Boots (the little male) to be the sire, but there is enough there for me to stake my rep on it.

Thanks,
~Jeff C.

princess said:

Sexual and reproductive maturity in corns is gagued on size and weight rather than age.

Click to expand...

I know... It is not me you are contradicting. Maybe you should call it the 3-3 rule, or the 2-out-of-3 rule. (?)

Don't know which way to go on this one . . .

Jeff and Adele,
Double checked my records from the past 4 years, and from 30 pairings (I know that's not overly many . . . ), I've had four go less than 30 days from confirmed breeding (I observe all breedings). Two 25's and two 27's. My next closest number of days was 33 and up. I had an average of 44 days last season. Wouldn't dare take a stance either way on this one, but thought it was interesting information to add to the discussion concerning Jeff's example!

magick-bears said:

I know that it was not sperm retention for a couple of reasons. 1) The breeding prior was over a year before the one with the small male. Given that the odds of her having a clutch of 23 eggs with 100% fertility is highly unlikely. 2) The male prior was proven to not be het for Amel. Over half of her clutch was Amel. Now I agree this does not 100% prove Boots (the little male) to be the sire, but there is enough there for me to stake my rep on it.

Click to expand...

There could very well have been sperm retention from the previous year as BOTH males could have contributed to the clutch which would account for both #1 and #2 . . . just food for thought.

As for the pairing, if you're going to breed him, I'd be all for testing out his possible hets. Problems I'd forsee for you:
1. I am dead set that unbrumated (especially first timer) males are generally not as fertile as their brumated counterparts.
2. First timer males are not as fertile as their counterparts.
3. Whichever pairing you choose with the most fervor, Murphy will step in and give it a whack as well!

. . . so, since the potential clutch 'could' be smaller than expected, I'd just take the chance and pair him up with the female that will test out the most possible hets, not necessarily the most anticipated hatchlings. This way IF the clutch is small, or IF the clutch is infertile, you're not AS disappointed with the results. Plan for the worst, hope for the best!

D80

Really good points all of them!

My testing for hets is valid with both females. With the sunglow mot, I'm testing her for anery and with the amel het caramel, I'm testing him for caramel. I introduced him to both of the girls (one at a time) last night and he didn't really show much interest in either of them. I'm not expecting miracles out of him...just hoping for some early interest.

If it doesn't happen this year I will be dissapointed but it's not the end of the world.

Also, HOLY COW!! -I've always put day 31 after mating into my diary as 1st possible day for eggs! I guess I have to revise! I have a couple of females who are possibly due any minute rather than the earlier assumed 'next week sometime'!!


-better go check them!