Regurgitated 4 mice & lumps in her torso....

About 18 months ago, I bought my 16 year old son a corn snake for his birthday. Up until recently, 'Cornholio' ate every live mouse offered and has never been hesitant. About 5 weeks ago, she regurgitated the first mouse two days after feeding. The guy who sold us Cornholio specializes in reptiles and seemed knowledgeable, said my son probably handled the snake too soon, then sold us another mouse, advising us to 'try again'. It was 3 days after regurgitating when my son fed her again. This one came back up 12 hours later. Mr. pet store said wait a week before trying again, which we did, with almost identical result. This scenario has repeated over and over and today, when Cornholio refused to eat, my son realized this started just after cleaning the habitat and using different bedding, sold by the pet store, (Repti-Bark 100% Fir Bark sold by Zoo Med Laboratories). Mr. pet store assures me this stuff is just dandy but I wanted a second opion and your website today. After reading several threads on regurgitation, I checked the habitat temp and found the temp strip had fallen off and couldn't be read. When put back in place, under the lamp it was a bone chilling 74F and I thought the problem had been found. Unfortunately, I noticed that along with the obvious loss in body mass, two small lumps are easy to see about midway down it's body.

I'm guessing that's not a good thing. Mr. pet store owner said she's probably impacted, then changed his tune after we told him we don't feed her in the habitat and the habitat uses bedding he sold us.

Here are my questions:
First, how 'bout that bedding? Yeah or nay?
Second, If you take your snake out of the habitat for feeding, how do you get it back in the habitat if you can't handle it?

Today, after my visit here, we cleaned the habitat, put down paper towels, covered it with a towel and have almost 90 on the rocks and 77 in the corner furthest away from the lamp.

What's my next move guys? "Go to the vet, go directly to the vet, do not pass GO and do not collect $200?"

Thank You in Advance,
Mike

Mr pet store idiot gave you very bad advice when he said to feed so soon after a regurge. You're supposed to leave them alone for 10 days before feeding after a regurge and then a much smaller mouse. It takes that long to rebuild their digestive acids and feeding before that just causes another regurge.

Since you have multiple regurges and those lumps I'd check with a vet. And try a search for regurge here and you'll find tons of info.

The missing word is - Found!

Flagg said:

Mr pet store idiot gave you very bad advice when he said to feed so soon after a regurge. You're supposed to leave them alone for 10 days before feeding after a regurge and then a much smaller mouse. It takes that long to rebuild their digestive acids and feeding before that just causes another regurge.

Since you have multiple regurges and those lumps I'd check with a vet. And try a search for regurge here and you'll find tons of info.

Click to expand...

Flagg, thanks for the quick reply. When I submitted the original thread, I accidentally left out a key word in the sentence below. (BTW, is it possible to edit your thread after submission?) Once in place, it is easier to see I completed the search and implemented many of the suggestions found regarding 'regurgitation'. Those threads are also what prompted my questions regarding the bedding and post feed handling. I think you're correct about Mr. Petstore, and apparently I was wrong to find him 'knowledgeable'. Hopefully, I've come to the right place for straight, knowledge based answers. Thanks Again, Mike

Mr. pet store assures me this stuff is just dandy but I wanted a second opion and 'Found' your website today. After reading several threads on regurgitation, I checked the habitat temp and found the temp strip had fallen off and couldn't be read.

This might help you
And yes, just place the snake back in the Viv after feeding. this won't bother him.

Kathy Love FAQ's

FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - once a snake has regurged, especially twice or more, it is more likely to keep on regurging until it dies, unless something is changed about its care and feeding. It is very important NOT to let this continue. PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW VERY CAREFULLY. This is from my FAQ on regurges:

I suspect your problem is probably not bad mice, but about handling too soon, feeding too soon or too large of a meal, a stomach "bug", or improper temps. If you make these mistakes once, or even twice, it is not usually a problem if you FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. But remember, each time it regurges, the stomach acids are depleted, and the whole electrolyte balance is thrown off more and more each time, and it makes it MORE likely that it will continue to throw up until it dies. (those consequences are just my opinions - I do not know if science backs up my conclusions, but my experience certainly does!) That is why it is so important to NOT ALLOW another regurge.

The next month or two is crucial. DO NOT feed it for AT LEAST 8 days since the last regurge. NOT ANYTHING AT ALL! Then get a newborn frozen pinky and cut it in half (or cut off just the head) If she eats it, leave her alone for a whole week. (no handling). Repeat the partial pinkie feeding the following week. Then feed a whole newborn pinkie a week after that, if there has been no regurge. Leave alone for a whole week. If she regurges, wait a week and repeat 1/2 pinkie. If she keeps it down, wait a week and repeat whole pinkie. If she holds down a couple of meals, DO NOT rush back into larger meals and more handling. Treat this seriously. Go very slowly. After 3 successful meals, go to a newborn pink every 5 days. Go back to normal feedings only after 6 successful meals. Always wait to handle until after 3 or 4 days, but only AFTER 6 successful meals. No handling until then (causes stress, need to keep stress down). And NEVER feed again right after a regurge - ALWAYS wait AT LEAST 7 or 8 days, maybe even up to 10 days, and then only feed something that was about 1/2 the size (or less) of what she regurged..

Also, be sure that temps are not too warm or cool. Try to give an area of low to mid 80s on one side and 70s on the other. Too hot or cold will cause regurges.

Grapefruit seed extract can sometimes help if the snake has some sort of "stomach bug" (any microbial problem) as it is a natural remedy that is good against many kinds of pathogens, but not as strong as an antibiotic prescribed by a doctor. This product has been used in agriculture for many years and seems to be very safe, as long as you dilute it with enough water that the acidity does not burn the tissues. A vet has told me he feels that it may somewhat alter the pH of the animal and thus change the way medicines are absorbed. So if you use this product and then take the snake to a vet, mention the treatment so it can be taken into account if the vet decides to change the prescription because of it. It is best to mix it in a glass and taste it to make sure it is not so bitter that the snake refuses to drink it. I have used it on myself and so has my husband. I find it works better on stomach problems than for other symptoms (such as respiratory - I didn't have any luck treating colds or other respiratory problems).You can buy it at a local health food store or online. Please refer to the following website for more background info:
http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html

I have also had success with a probiotic called Nutri Bac, a fine powder containing seven different microflora that should be inhabiting the gut of reptiles, but may be absent due to stress, disease, antibiotic treatments, etc. Using the powder as a supplement will sometimes allow the reptile to get back the natural balance of microbes in its digestive tract, and then its own immune system can take over. See my website for more details, or go here:
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn Ut...information.htm

The number of days and amounts of food, etc, suggested above are not set in stone. Other people may have success with slightly different formulas, but this is what I found works for me and many of my customers. If this protocol does not work when carefully followed, it is likely that the snake has some severe problems. Your only hope is a QUALIFIED herp vet, who may or may not be able to save your pet.

Please follow my care sheet for the first month or so when starting with new acquisitions (posted on my website for the first month's care of new corns).. The first month is crucial in getting the baby established. It is worth a little extra "coddling" for the first month in order to have a trouble free pet for the next 10 or 15 years or more.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

CONTACT INFO:

CORNUTOPIA / Kathy Love
Captive-Bred Cornsnakes

WEB: http://www.CornUtopia.com
TEL: (239) 728 2390
Backup tel. # 239-691-4414 (Cell)
EMAIL: [email protected]

Ome very important thing, throw out that "temp strip" and get a digital thermometer with a probe. Those strips are totally inaccurate and only measure the ambient air temp way up on the glass where its stuck. You need to measure at substrate level, or even better below substrate over the UTH if you have one.

Walmart sells indoor/outdoor digital thermometers for $8 and up.

Repti bark bedding is ok, but most people on here prefer aspen.

I'd suggest you ditch the heat lamp and get an under tank heater. Also, do what Flagg suggested and get the digital thermometer with a probe. While you are buying that, get yourself a plug in lamp dimmer so you can regulate the heater's output. Too hot is as bad as too cold.

Finally, since your snake has had so many regurges, I'd recommend you buy some Nutribac from Kathy Love. It will help replenish the digestive enzymes your snake has lost.

P.S. Only contributing members can edit. This was changed because the edit function had been abused in the past.

Thanks BeckyG........Guess where the heat lamp came from???? Yup, Mr. Petstore snakeoil salesman.

So far, no comments about the lumpy bumpy torso............
Mike

The heat lamp is just a question of preference I think. I use it for my two and they are fine with it and the temps are good on both sides.

For the nutribac, once you have it, put it "on" the food so that even if he regurge, he will have taken it in.

I also use Reptibark for substrate and really like it and my snakes are doing fine

I totally agree with the thermometre with the probe. They do some that you can place on one end of the viv and the probe wire is long enough to go to the other side so that you can have the temperature on the warm and the cool side with one device. I have one like that which also have the hygrometer included which cost me roughly $10-15.

Good luck with your snake!

I would get the snake checked by a vet to make sure you don't have something going on with your snake. I'm assuming you fed live hoppers or something to your snake. It's possible that your snake picked up parasites from the live animals or could have something more serious such as crypto. Either way a fecal might be in order as well as a general check over. Mr. Petstore was more accurate than Mr. Breeder was when he told you at least 7 days compared to 2. 10 is better and now that you've started the problem, following Kathy's advice is even more important. Good luck on getting your animal back in health and I would try to get him feeding on frozen thawed mice instead of live. Safer and healthier than feeding some mouse that may or may not have been in the healthiest environment.

Another thing you might like to consider is adding 'Avipro' to the water, this is a probiotic which should aid your snake but i'd definately get it to the vet....
Good luck......