Creamcicle Confusion????

First the other night I got a snow poss. het. motley and I put a deposit on a pair of Creamcicles that I was told were 100% pure E.g.g.?!?! They are at the shop where we got your 1st corn, Mark(the shop owner) just picked them up at a show in Ohio. He says that the breeder will certify that they are pure but on the other forum( and from all I have read) a Cream is an Emory cross?!!?
Mark is getting me the breeders number but before I call I wanted your advice...........I want my bloodline pure E.g.g.!! Should I pass on these or that do you think???


Thanks alot

Colleen

BTW They "look" like the pics of pastel snows I have seen. If that helps at all.

as far as I knew a cream was a cross between an emory and a corn. But I am new to this so there is a good chance i could be wrong. But i thought I would throw my two cents in early..

"Creamsicle" is the name given to Corn x Emory. If they are "pure" guttata then they are Amels. JMHO but I sure hope this is not a case of someone naming something because it looks like something else. I think it will just add to the confusion. As far as passing on them, that's up to you. I love Creamsicles, I have 2 and am looking for some females. Good luck and I hope you get the answers your looking for.

Alicia

PS: If they look like a type of Snow that puts more confusion in the mix. I don't think I've ever seen a Creamsicle that looked like any type of Snow. If there is any I would sure like to see some pics. Anyway hope you get some answers

Creamsicles are emoryi crosses.....

No ifs, ands or buts.

There may very well be pure guttata amels that have colors just like Creams but the name Creamsicle is reserved specifically for amel guttata X emoryi.

I don't understand why a breeder would want to use the name of a hybrid and then claim it is not a hybrid. All this does is cause confusion and bring a cloud of doubt over his projects.
Makes no sense to me.

pure guttata creamsicles????? sounds like feces of either the bull or horse variety to me....... good luck... jim

I had a guy recently telling me that he had creamsicle babies for sale. Turns out he bred his creamsicle male with his amel female. Of course this does not produce creamsicles, but amels with 25% emory blood. My understanding is that there are only two ways to get a creamsicle...creamsicle x creamsicle = creamsicle....and amel guttata x emory = creamsicle. Am I correct in my assumptions?

Peter

Peter,
They would still be Creamsicles. He just threw a little more corn blood in the mix. This accounts for alot of the variation you see in Creams. My 2 do not look anything alike. All Creams have Emory and crossing that to an Amel Corn won't change that. When I bred my Creamsicle male to my Snow Corn female I got Creamsicle offspring just like I expected except they are het for Anery. All went to homes that knew they were not pure guttata.

Alicia

I have to disagree, which is why I'm not buying those from that guy. All you produced was amels that have some emory blood and are het for anery. In other words, IMHO a mutt. It's not a creamsicle...just a hybrid that plagues the genetics by not being pure guttata and not the accepted hybrid aka creamsicle. This is of course just my opinion and is not intended as a flame or anything like that. I appreciate your thoughts and opinion, although I retain my own.

Peter

Well I apoligize for plagueing the genetics.

Colleen

Colleen,
This is a page with descriptions for future ref.

http://www.vmsherp.com/LCCornNames.htm

Creamsicle- "A hybrid between an amelanistic example of the cornsnake and Emory's Ratsnake. Generally orange blotches on a creamy pink background when bred as a 50/50 mix of the two. As the mix is shifted more towards Emory's Ratsnake, yellows are more prominent. More evidence of the cornsnake emphasizes red coloration, these examples are sometimes called Red Creamsicle"

Red Creamsicle AKA Butterscotch - "A hybrid between an amelanistic example of the cornsnake and the Emory's Ratsnake. Generally reddish orange blotches on a creamy orange background when bred as a 75/25 mix of the two."


Alicia

You guys are so great!!!

Being so new to Corns I didn't know what to think of all this. I was pretty sure that they were emory cross but then I wasn't sure if that was just something new that I hadn't heard of yet! It's so nice to have this forum and all the people that share so much!!!!


THANKS so much!!!

Colleen

I didnt do it!!

hmm intresting..but now my head hurts ! talk later!

well then I must ask. What exactly would a 25/75 cross be classified as? I say creamsickle! If it looks like a normal (or Amel etc.) that does not genetically remove the emory, it is still what I refer to as creamsickle. Everyone can see how this could really get out of hand. I suspect this is the reason Rich has opted to stay away from the creamsickle line. Just a guess. I have 3 creamsickles, all look very different-I believe one could even be(by apearance) 80% amel emory, but I don't know for sure.

Peter,
I can relate to the Mutt-definition, however I think for snakes anyway-we need to draw a fine line, either its guttata or guttata x emory. If we begin to accept anything different, with the amount of breeders out there, who knows what we will end up with. Oh Peter no flame here> I value your opinion as much as my own.

Matt L.

Heh, it's still a mutt because it isn't a creamsicle according to the definition which is 50/50 amel/emory. It can't be sold as just an amel because it has 25% emory blood and can't be sold as a creamsicle because it isn't. I wonder how long it would take to breed all of the emory blood out? or how long it would take to get it back to 50/50. I don't know if it would be possible at all. I agree Matt....your opinion is yours and mine is mine...no flame intended. That's what discussions are all about. If you agreed with everything I said, it would be boring. Although my ego would be greatly inflated!

Peter

as would mine!

keeping our egos in check...LOL

pdrau said:

it isn't a creamsicle according to the definition which is 50/50 amel/emory.

Click to expand...

I've never heard anybody else use that as "the" definition. Where exactly did you get this definition from?

Everything I've ever read about creamsicles has said that and various friends defined creamsicles that way. The site that Alicia posted says that, but also says that the more it leans toward having more emory blood they call it red creamsicles. Guess we should take a poll and see what people think.

Peter

In my experience, an animal that is a cross between an corn and a emoryi is called a creamsicle (amel offspring), a rootbeer (normal offspring), or a creamsoda (hypo offspring). There are those who advertize red creamsicles when their babies are especially red, but the "cream" is still there to identify the emoryi blood. The same is true for the newer candy creams that I understand have been produced and are very orange candy cane looking snakes. These names not only identify what the animals look like, but they should also alert the buyer/breeder to a percentage of emoryi blood being present.

Now, I have never heard of a strict 50/50 percentage requirement for creamsicles to be so called. In fact, given the coloration of most creams offered for sale, I doubt that a large number of them are truly 50/50 anymore.

Is a creamsicle always a creamsicle? Are its descendants always going to be? If a snake has 12.5% emoryi blood and 87.5% corn blood, is it still a creamsicle? Is it the blood percentage that matters, or rather how the animal looks that makes the determination? And what shall we say about the Kisatchie corn, which many people suggest is a naturally occuring intergrade between the emoryi and the corns of Louisiana?

I don't have the answers to these questions, but I think that they need to be addressed. Personally, if I produce an animal that has cream blood in it, I identify it as such. I don't have the squeemishness (?) that others have about intergrades for reasons that I won't enter into here, but I certainly respect the opinions of those who do have them. I think everyone ought to get what they want and want what they get.

Darin

My big problem started when someone I know told me that the amel x creamsicle cross he made was a creamsicle. I guess technically based on what Darin is saying it is, but they looked more amel than creamsicle once I looked closer. I'd like those questions answered too. Where is the line drawn.

Not that I'm prejudiced or anything, but I am going to use a comparison that may come across as being. Here in New Orleans, if you have one drop of African-American blood you are considered African-American (although they don't use the PC version of it). My point is at what percentage does a corn become a creamsicle, 1 drop? 25%? 50%?

I think that I'll avoid purchasing creamsicles of any percentage until I get this answered. I like them, but I don't want to produce mutts that are worthless to the general public.

Peter

I'd rather have...

a nice looking mutt (Creamsicle) that is 25% emoryi 75% corn then a crappy looking 50/50 Creamsicle.

Any amel emoryi X corn is a Creamsicle in my book. You make the judgement on whether to call it red or orange by looking at it.

This was purchased as a Creamsicle, don't know the ratio.


These are the product of the offspring from the pair above crossed with a hypo intergrade that contains either 1/8 or 1/16 emoryi.

I can't see how these would have to be called mutts while others that have more emoryi get to be Creamsicles.

It's like using a teaspoon of salt instead of a tablespoon, who cares what the amount is as long as it tastes good.

I just thought I'd throw in my .02 worth

The older female above looked very much like the little one on the bottom at that age.